GWR loco names - correct pronunciation

[Gwiwer]

Izzem-bard or Eye-zem-bard?  

[Poggy1165]

Reminds me of the story of Bramall. Traditionally pronounced 'Bramall'. But when the posh people from Manchester started to live there they though it a common contraction and turned it to 'Bramhall.' So now you have, certainly in speech if not in formal title, 'Bramhall Hall'.

[DavidLong]

I get pulled up sometimes for saying a loco name incorrectly. What is correct pronunciation for these names?

 

Soughton Hall (ie. Sowton or Sawton?)

Wyke Hall (ie Wick or why-k?)

 

Foxcote Manor (Fox-coat or Fox-cut?)

 

Lechlade Manor (Leck-lade or Letch-lade).

 

Tregenna Castle (Treegena, tre-genna?),

 

Cornish and Welsh names can trap anyone. Chester and Cheshire catches me out.

 

A few others to play with...

 

Ditcheat Manor (locals say as 'Ditch-it)

 

Conyngham Hall (?)

 

Could be makings of a new thread?

 

[i spell checked 'pronunciation' before posting this lest the thought police come after me].

 

I wouldn't bother about it too much. Join in the laughter at your expense, learn from it and move on. After all, who with more than half a brain would expect that Happisburgh would be pronounced as Haze-borough. Or, indeed, as others have pointed out, that Belvoir is Beevor or Beauchamp is Beecham. We all get them wrong to begin with but learn from the sniggering!

Until it moved last year, Expo EM North was held at Slaithwaite. Nothing very difficult there, it's just Slay-th-wait. Ah but there is a local pronunciation which has it as Slough(as in plough)-it that is gaining a wider currency and may yet become the accepted version.

Slay-th-wait? Snigger . . .

By the way, speaking of plough, in the US it is spelt as plow but pronounced as plough and not as slow. So much for simplification of the language.

"I'm rather slow, as I'm finding this field rather tough to plough/plow" All teachers of English to small children have my sympathy and admiration.

 

David

[Gwiwer]

Slaithwaite was "Sleth-it" last time I was up there.  With a soft "th"

 

In terms of locomotive names follow your instincts.  Also don't assume someone sniggering at you has the right answer.  There may not be one definitive "right answer" as this thread as already shown.

 

More (BR WR rather than GWR) names which have given rise to debate or confusion at times include Cambrian ("Caym-bree-an" or "Camm-bree-an"?)  Temeraire" (is it Tee-mer-air" or "Temmer-aire"?),  Zebra (the eternal "Zee-bra" or "Zebb-ra"?), Western Leviathan ("Le-VIA-thun", "LEVVY-ay-thun" or "LEVVY-a-thun"?) and I even heard Western Viscount referred to as "Viss-count" by more than one person.

[The Stationmaster]

Reminds me of the story of Bramall. Traditionally pronounced 'Bramall'. But when the posh people from Manchester started to live there they though it a common contraction and turned it to 'Bramhall.' So now you have, certainly in speech if not in formal title, 'Bramhall Hall'.

 

How peculiar - my previous aside from this one hasn't appeared so I'll try again.  Near here is a hamlet called Pishill - now imagine how the pronounciation of that has changed since the 'posh folk' have moved it.

 

Incidentally Rick omitted the most common South Walian pronounciation of Cambrian which is CAM-bryan, completely threw me the first time I heard it!

[Gwiwer]

Rick omitted the most common South Walian pronounciation of Cambrian which is CAM-bryan, completely threw me the first time I heard it!

 

Which is strictly speaking the most correct if one takes account of the derivation of the name.  "Cambria" was the Latin name given to what is now known as Wales.  Depending upon your teacher or university tradition that "should" be pronounced CAM-brya.   The version I got suggested it could not be "CAM-bree-a" because that would have required the spelling to be Cambrēa with the accent indicating a "long e" sound.  But since Latin has not been commonly spoken these past few years who is to say truly which is definitive?

 

Which is more or less where we came in.

[br2975]

".... Try pronouncing Clun Castle correctly and see how many people recognise what you are talking about! The correct way to say it is "clean" I believe! ..."

.

If we assume the heritage of the name to be Welsh, then yes it should be pronounced "clean" as in "Pont-y-clean" (Pontyclun).

.

As for Brian W's assertion about the pronounciation of Drysllwyn Castle - the best I can come up with is "Driss-thloin" as the 'saes' (English) amongst you may experience difficulties with the pronounciation of 'll' (the double L).

.

Brian R

[10800]

I'm glad the GW didn't extend into Southern territory in the SE otherwise we might be faced with things like Wrotham ('Rootum') Hall and especially Trottiscliffe ('Trozzly') Manor.

[Gwiwer]

It may be no more than regional variation but "Drysllwyn" would be "Drooss - thloyn" (not "Driss") in the south Welsh that I know.  However I won't press the point.

[JeremyC]

Not Great Western, but one that nobody [including myself] seems to know how to pronounce is the LNER A2 'Sayajirao'.

 

Having just watched 'Winterwatch' on BBC iplayer I'll not go into the subject of people who pronounce the Scots for a body of water [Loch] as something you put a key in.

 

Jeremy

[John_Hughes]

That is intresting, cos my dad, who's mother was born a couple of miles from Clun, always called it Clun as it is spelt....but they were sort of Sais

 

A E Housman, who as a Shropshire Lad ought to have known, quotes the following, which should set the matter straight once and for all:

 

Clunton and Clungunford,

Clunbury and Clun,

Are the quietest places

Under the sun.

[10800]

Having just watched 'Winterwatch' on BBC iplayer I'll not go into the subject of people who pronounce the Scots for a body of water [Loch] as something you put a key in.

 

Agreed - how hard can it be even for one of them to get it right?

[Fat Controller]

".... Try pronouncing Clun Castle correctly and see how many people recognise what you are talking about! The correct way to say it is "clean" I believe! ..." . If we assume the heritage of the name to be Welsh, then yes it should be pronounced "clean" as in "Pont-y-clean" (Pontyclun). . As for Brian W's assertion about the pronounciation of Drysllwyn Castle - the best I can come up with is "Driss-thloin" as the 'saes' (English) amongst you may experience difficulties with the pronounciation of 'll' (the double L). . Brian R

'Please remember to wipe the keyboard and monitor after trying these pronunciations'

[br2975]

'Please remember to wipe the keyboard and monitor after trying these pronunciations'

 

LESSON 1

 

Instructions in how to pronounce the Welsh letter "ll" as in "Llanfair" , "Llanedeyrn" or "Drysllwyn Castle"

.

Put yout tongue to the roof of your mouth, directly behind your teeth, and breath out quite hard through the narrow space left between the sides of the tongue and the roof of the mouth.

.

It may take a few attempts.

.

Oh how I wish I could use Skype and watch you all trying this as you read .......

.

Brian R

.

PS

.

Before the next lesson, for your homework I want you all to practice the following Llanrhaidr Y Mochnant, Ystalyfera, Ynysbwl and Galon Uchaf.

[marc smith]

..... and I want you all to tell me the full name of Llanfair PG
Pronounced correctly, of course

[The Stationmaster]

LESSON 1

 

Instructions in how to pronounce the Welsh letter "ll" as in "Llanfair" , "Llanedeyrn" or "Drysllwyn Castle"

.

Put yout tongue to the roof of your mouth, directly behind your teeth, and breath out quite hard through the narrow space left between the sides of the tongue and the roof of the mouth.

.

It may take a few attempts.

.

Oh how I wish I could use Skype and watch you all trying this as you read .......

.

Brian R

.

PS

.

Before the next lesson, for your homework I want you all to practice the following Llanrhaidr Y Mochnant, Ystalyfera, Ynysbwl and Galon Uchaf.

 

Easy Brian - I used to lodge in Ynysybwl, and had to get there on the 'bus from Ponty

[frobisher]

Agreed - how hard can it be even for one of them to get it right?

To be fair, it's not a usual sound in English English. Probably the same reason most of people (in the UK) seem to mispronounce Bachmann unless they've either Scots, Welsh or studied German (hint, there is no R or K...).

[br2975]

Easy Brian - I used to lodge in Ynysybwl, and had to get there on the 'bus from Ponty

That must be a new sport then "Extreme lodging !"

 

As were a regular in the area Mike, no point in asking you to pronounce Beddau, Penycoedcae, Hirwaun or Penrhiwceiber (as the locals do and not necessarily the correct way .......)

.

Brian R

[jjnewitt]

".... Try pronouncing Clun Castle correctly and see how many people recognise what you are talking about! The correct way to say it is "clean" I believe! ..." . If we assume the heritage of the name to be Welsh, then yes it should be pronounced "clean" as in "Pont-y-clean" (Pontyclun). . As for Brian W's assertion about the pronounciation of Drysllwyn Castle - the best I can come up with is "Driss-thloin" as the 'saes' (English) amongst you may experience difficulties with the pronounciation of 'll' (the double L). . Brian R

According to the town's own website the origin of Clun is Engish and not Welsh. I lived in the Welsh Marches for 25 years and never heard anyone pronounce it anything other than 'Klun'.

[Welchester]

As were a regular in the area Mike, no point in asking you to pronounce Beddau, Penycoedcae, Hirwaun or Penrhiwceiber (as the locals do and not necessarily the correct way .......)

.

Brian R

 

I think the last one is known as "The Khyber"!

 

What about Pontnewynydd?

[Adam]

As I said my grandmother's family lived there since "time immemorial", but the name Lloyd implies a certain level of cross border fraternity

 

Not really, it merely indicates that the Welsh language didn't stop at the 'border' - large parts of south west Herefordshire, for example were Welsh speaking well into the 17th century. I think Lloyd is from 'llwyd' (grey).

 

The Clun website indicates that the name is 'British' , i.e. Brythonic (early 'Welsh', sort of), but the settlement of Clun was in England (and hence Domesday Book) until it was made the centre of a Marcher lordship some time in the twelfth century - in effect given to a private defence contractor to keep the Welsh out; sorry, day job creeping in...

 

Adam

[tomparryharry]

That must be a new sport then "Extreme lodging !"

 

As were a regular in the area Mike, no point in asking you to pronounce Beddau, Penycoedcae, Hirwaun or Penrhiwceiber (as the locals do and not necessarily the correct way .......)

.

Brian R

Come on Brian! Dead Simple like!

 

Beddau (Graves) pronounced "Bey-tha" Pen-Y-Coedcae, pronounced "Penner-coid-ka" Hirwaun, pronounced "Eeerwine". And lastly Penrhiwceiber, pronounced by the locals as "Kyber".

 

You could have used Rhiwsaeson, Creigau, Pontlottyn, Llanbradach, Tongwynlais, or Gyfellion.

 

You could play this game all day & night.

 

Regards,

Ian

[Richard E]

OK, coming back to the English side of the border folk should be grateful "Coonsbury" (as I have been told it is pronounced) never made it onto a nameplate - we always used to get the giggles when non locals tried to get their chops round Congresbury.

 

As for Nailsea (correctly pronounced Nailsee), Clevedon (Cleevedon not Clevdon as I have hear) and others in the area it could be quite amusing at times. Add in the Bristle effect for some at it got even more entertaining.

[br2975]

According to the town's own website the origin of Clun is Engish and not Welsh. I lived in the Welsh Marches for 25 years and never heard anyone pronounce it anything other than 'Klun'.

That's why I originally wrote "if we assume the heritage of the name to be Welsh"  etc

.

Brian R

[br2975]

Come on Brian! Dead Simple like!

 

Beddau (Graves) pronounced "Bey-tha" Pen-Y-Coedcae, pronounced "Penner-coid-ka" Hirwaun, pronounced "Eeerwine". And lastly Penrhiwceiber, pronounced by the locals as "Kyber".

 

You could have used Rhiwsaeson, Creigau, Pontlottyn, Llanbradach, Tongwynlais, or Gyfellion.

 

You could play this game all day & night.

 

Regards,

Ian

I once had an enquiry to do in Telelkebir Street, Hopkinstown - I knew nothing of battles that were fought in the desert many moons ago and didn't know it was pronounced Teleee-khyber

 

Brian R