Older Inspirational Layouts

[t-b-g]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

I think I was also at that show!!

 

I left thinking that if this is the future of model railway exhibitions, then count me out.

[Chris M]

2 hours ago, CF MRC said:

Some photos of Chiltern Green at the time that Luton Hoo was being added to it. Taken by Pekka Siiskonen in 1981.  Soon to feature in an article in the MRC Bulletin. 

 

 

 

 

Last photos taken by Len Weal, when the branch was complete. 

 

The Midland signal cabin was one of the first buildings I scratch built fifty years ago…

CG & LH are now in private hands - I have no idea where. 
 

Tim 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting. It was at the Devon Railway Centre, Bickleigh in 2021. I expect it is still there. It was running but the stock was less than impressive.

[CF MRC]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Thanks for posting. It was at the Devon Railway Centre, Bickleigh in 2021. I expect it is still there. It was running but the stock was less than impressive.

I understood that it had been sold in 2019. 
 

Tim

[RJS1977]

It's not currently shown amongst the layouts on the DRC website, so it may have been moved on. I hope that if that is the case, the new owner has reunited the two halves as they had been somewhat unsymapthetically split owing to space constraints at DRC.

 

Of course, another layout it would be nice to see back at shows occasionally, say Ally Pally and Warley.

[DLT]

21 hours ago, CF MRC said:

I understood that it had been sold in 2019. 
 

Tim

Last time I saw Matt he told me it had gone, but didn't say where.

[Pacific231G]

On 20/12/2022 at 11:09, t-b-g said:

 

I went to a show a while ago that had 10 O Gauge layouts of which 8 were diesel depots. All were DCC sound fitted.

 

I walked out after having my ears battered for about 30 minutes.

I've always felt that Depot layouts (steam or diesel) are a bit like going to the theatre but seeing only the green room and not the performance. That's maybe just me though as I used to find traditional dock working far more fascinating than ships at sea and you could say the same about that. 

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I've always felt that Depot layouts (steam or diesel) are a bit like going to the theatre but seeing only the green room and not the performance. That's maybe just me though as I used to find traditional dock working far more fascinating than ships at sea and you could say the same about that. 

 

The worst thing for me is the operation of such layouts, which usually amounts to shuffling locos from one track to another for no apparent reason, as slowly (and as noisily) as possible.

 

I visited lots of diesel depots in the 70s and 80s and I don't recall ever seeing locos being moved around just so that something was happening. The depots were either almost empty as everything was out working during the week, with just an occasional movement on or off shed, or full of dead locos at weekends.

[Nearholmer]

To and from the fuel road was about the only bit of shuffling that I recall, plus moving locos in and out of the shed for exams, brake blocks etc.
 

There was more shuffling at stabling points, notably Kings Cross, I think partly because the access was a rather zigzagging, and partly to extract particular locos for particular trains.

 

Its the usual contrast between real railways, where everyone works on the basis of economy of effort, and model railways where everyone wants the maximum of movement. I think that’s why models of genuinely operationally intense/complex places work best, because that contrast/conflict doesn’t arise.

 

TBH, and with no disrespect to their builders, I don’t greatly enjoy loco depot layouts at exhibitions for these reasons.

[t-b-g]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

To and from the fuel road was about the only bit of shuffling that I recall, plus moving locos in and out of the shed for exams, brake blocks etc.
 

There was more shuffling at stabling points, notably Kings Cross, I think partly because the access was a rather zigzagging, and partly to extract particular locos for particular trains.

 

Its the usual contrast between real railways, where everyone works on the basis of economy of effort, and model railways where everyone wants the maximum of movement. I think that’s why models of genuinely operationally intense/complex places work best, because that contrast/conflict doesn’t arise.

 

TBH, and with no disrespect to their builders, I don’t greatly enjoy loco depot layouts at exhibitions for these reasons.

 

I couldn't agree more. I think that is why layouts like Buckingham and Borchester were always my favourites and still have rarely been equalled for operational interest.

 

As a youngster, trainspotting, I never wanted dad to take me to a lineside somewhere to watch them "just" go by. I was always happier at a station, watching a shunter shuffling about adding a van to a train, or being fascinated by the trains which arrived and split into different portions for different destinations.

 

Going to watch operations at Tinsley, with the hump shunters doing their stuff and freight trains arriving and leaving, was always far more entertaining to me than the expresses hurtling by on the ECML, which ran within walking distance of where I lived but I rarely bothered going to watch. Seeing a Deltic whizz by was exciting but when every train did just the same thing, I soon got bored.

 

I genuinely think that it is the reason why real places rarely make good models. To find somewhere that is interesting to operate, visually appealing, has a good variety of locos and stock, good scenic breaks and can be built in a reasonable space rules out almost everywhere.

 

 

[woodenhead]

17 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

The worst thing for me is the operation of such layouts, which usually amounts to shuffling locos from one track to another for no apparent reason, as slowly (and as noisily) as possible.

 

I visited lots of diesel depots in the 70s and 80s and I don't recall ever seeing locos being moved around just so that something was happening. The depots were either almost empty as everything was out working during the week, with just an occasional movement on or off shed, or full of dead locos at weekends.

A depot at 4:30am was quite an active place - had an escorted trip around Thornaby in the rain at that time having earlier watched Deltics on sleeper services zoom past Darlington station.

 

But my visits to Longsight, Reddish or Newton Heath in daylight hours usually saw little in the way of movement.

 

However, you can imagine how busy Kings Cross, Ranleigh Bridge or Cambridge St would have been as they all existed to place traction at the head of trains in busy stations and accept released locos for fuelling and stabling before their return West or North.  Bristol Bath road had quite a bit of movement too as did Crewe, York, Gateshead, Haymarket, Eastfield and Carstairs.  What these all had in common was loco hauled passenger services either changing traction or terminating nearby.

 

The freight associated sheds looked a lot quieter, shunters were generally outstationed only returning for weekly fuelling/servicing and it was generally weekends when lots of traction congregated into the storage yards - i.e. Healey Mills, Tinsley.

 

I am generally ambivalent about BR period engine shed /  stabling points because they existed in quite large numbers, they could be a couple of sidings by a yard, in a spare road in a station, a massive undertaking like Tinsley, Toton or Thornaby or anything in between.

 

But I am sorry I really don't like these modern variations on these themes  because they seem to be trying to put 1960-1990 operations into the modern day, and the modern day railway is nothing like that, DB has Toton but I think it's more because it's there by history than they really really need a big location like that now.  From what I see loco stabling is now a siding in an infrastructure yard, or Thunderbird locos dotted around the country at stations and the odd extra loco here and there, most of the locos themselves are busy at work or in storage.

 

Note I am referring to MPDs here, there are a lot of very good modern image (i.e. 2010-) layouts some of which are based on actual locations where the intensity of usage is probably exaggerated for viewing but is prototypical.

[Dagworth]

Depot layouts tend not to work as they don't have a purpose other than to display lots of locos. With a few notable exceptions... @Clive Mortimore has built a couple of very well observed diesel depots where locos do have a reason for every move, coming on to shed, fuelling, exams, sand filling, then stabling until next turn.

 

Andi

[woodenhead]

18 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

Depot layouts tend not to work as they don't have a purpose other than to display lots of locos. With a few notable exceptions... @Clive Mortimore has built a couple of very well observed diesel depots where locos do have a reason for every move, coming on to shed, fuelling, exams, sand filling, then stabling until next turn.

 

Andi

Clive built stabling points, of the sort near to a station in the days when engines ruled, so plenty of activity.

[Dagworth]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Clive built stabling points, of the sort near to a station in the days when engines ruled, so plenty of activity.

Hanging Hill was very much a complete depot with maintenance shed and everything, much more than a stabling point. 
 

Andi

[Clive Mortimore]

11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

The worst thing for me is the operation of such layouts, which usually amounts to shuffling locos from one track to another for no apparent reason, as slowly (and as noisily) as possible.

 

I visited lots of diesel depots in the 70s and 80s and I don't recall ever seeing locos being moved around just so that something was happening. The depots were either almost empty as everything was out working during the week, with just an occasional movement on or off shed, or full of dead locos at weekends.

Hi Tony,

 

They don't have to be so. Get the track plan right, then you can show the purpose of the engine shed. I will quote my mate Andi.

 

10 hours ago, Dagworth said:

Depot layouts tend not to work as they don't have a purpose other than to display lots of locos. With a few notable exceptions... @Clive Mortimore has built a couple of very well observed diesel depots where locos do have a reason for every move, coming on to shed, fuelling, exams, sand filling, then stabling until next turn.

 

Andi

On Hanging Hill a card system was used. It was based on the work load at Toton in 1967.

 

Maintenance of diesel locomotives was worked out, in conjunction with careful diagramming of locomotives, so they were at the right place for servicing and examination. With all the variants that still plague the railway timetables this was did not always happen to plan. Things were greatly helped with the introduction of TOPS, the location of the locomotive was known as well as when it was due for servicing and could be diagrammed so that it would be able to receive attention.  The table below has been taken from Modern Railways March 1967

 

Exam

Hours run between exams (real time)

Time taken to perform exam.

Examination carried out

A

32-38 hrs

 (2days)

1hr (2man–hrs)

General service. Visual exam, test brakes and heating equipment*

B

125-150 hrs

(7-12 days)

6 hrs (20 man–hrs)

As above. More compressive service, checks on engine and running gear.

C

500-600hrs

(Monthly)

8 hrs (32 man-hrs)

As above. Change lubricating oil filters, clean air and fuel filters. Clean radiators. Check engine speed and running. Take lubricating oil sample for chemical analysis.

D

1500-1800hrs

(3 monthly)

16 hrs (72man-hrs)

As above. Check engine tappets. Remove and teat fuel injectors. Examine regulator.

E

3000-3600hrs

(6monthly)

16 hrs (96man-hrs)

As above. Inspect engine cams. Check all control equipment and tighten connections.

F

4500-5400hrs

(9 monthly)

 

This is quoted in some documents but I am unable to find anything about it

* This applied to steam heating generators.

 

Most locos entering a TMD did so for a reason, even if it was for refuelling. If a loco were coming in for servicing or examination it would be refuelled prior to anything else. Some locos coming in for unscheduled repair would be shunted into a siding while awaiting a repair berth. There would be a few locos just coming on shed for stabling normally shunters and locos working ECS trains. On a model it is a fairly safe bet to run most locos on to the fuelling point on entering the shed.

 

From the Modern Railways 1967 article the amount of work done by Toton for a 4-week period was 1410 locos fuelled. A total of 748 were serviced and repaired, comprising of 260 A exams, 194 B exams, 82 C exams, 40 D exams and 17 E exams. This leaves 155 locos, which were repaired without being scheduled for servicing. The article goes on list a total of 353 repairs and modifications to locos but does not state how many locos had more than one repair, nor the number of faults found on examination. To fuel a loco would take sometime. The fuel pumps at Tinsley delivered fuel at 50 gallons per minute, a class 47 had a tank capacity of 850 gallons. Fuelling was normally done at the same time as the A exam, a long with other servicing, and restoring the levels water, sand and oil. 

 

Apart form model locos failing for real (which never happens) how does a modeller decide which engines are due for exams, repairs etc and what level? One method would be to have a card for each loco coming on shed, using the above this would mean 100 cards, divided as follows 58 refuel only, 3 refuel needing light repair (unscheduled), 1 refuel needing heavy repair (unscheduled), 27 A/B exam, 3 A/B exam needing light repair, 6 C exam, 2 D exam, 1 D exam needing heavy repair, 1 E exam, 1 light repair not being refuelled, 1 heavy repair not being refuelled. Add to this a few stabling only cards, for shunters, locos on trip workings and ECS. Shuffle the set of cards and as each loco enters the shed turn over the top card to reveal what action you as Depot Manger/ Foreman have to take in respect to berthing the loco.

 

To me a set of over 100 cards would be too unwieldy therefore for my own depot I use a pack of ordinary playing cards (see track plan). Red cards are for locos going off shed and black for those entering it. On entry the loco halts outside the shunters hut, he directs the loco to its fuel point or siding. If the card is a 2 ♠ then it is a shunting loco coming on for stabling purposes only, 2 ♣ a shunter type 1 or type 2 on trip or ECS working for stabling only, these bypass the fuel point. 3, 4, 5 and 6 are refuel only and go to the fuel line, 7 is for double headed locos for fuel only, 8 and 9 is for an A exam at the fuel point. 10 and a picture card is for a loco requiring to go into covered accommodation for exam or repair. A King is for the far road representing the heavy repair or E exam area. As I can never remember which locos are due to go into the shed for exam etc I always move the lead loco on the fuel point into the building.  When moving locos on to the stabling loops I refer back to the last black card, a spade means the loco will be stabled on number 1 or number 3 loop, a club for 2 and 4 loops. This portrays the shed foreman preparing the locos for there next duties. Red cards are for locos going off shed, a diamond from roads 1 or 3 and a heart 2 and 4. One road out of the pair is filling up with locos and the other is emptying. A red 2 releases a loco from the dead end sidings by the staff block, I have found this necessary or these locos never get moved. Picture cards not only release a loco from one of the storage loops but a loco from the shed, again Kings are for the far road. Locos leaving the building are normally placed on to the storage loops before departing the shed.  Aces and jokers are for fuel train, stores, and BTU etc movements.

Runway headshunt was so named after I drove a brand new Hymek off the end of the layout

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[t-b-g]

41 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Tony,

 

They don't have to be so. Get the track plan right, then you can show the purpose of the engine shed. I will quote my mate Andi.

 

On Hanging Hill a card system was used. It was based on the work load at Toton in 1967.

 

Maintenance of diesel locomotives was worked out, in conjunction with careful diagramming of locomotives, so they were at the right place for servicing and examination. With all the variants that still plague the railway timetables this was did not always happen to plan. Things were greatly helped with the introduction of TOPS, the location of the locomotive was known as well as when it was due for servicing and could be diagrammed so that it would be able to receive attention.  The table below has been taken from Modern Railways March 1967

 

Exam

Hours run between exams (real time)

Time taken to perform exam.

Examination carried out

A

32-38 hrs

 (2days)

1hr (2man–hrs)

General service. Visual exam, test brakes and heating equipment*

B

125-150 hrs

(7-12 days)

6 hrs (20 man–hrs)

As above. More compressive service, checks on engine and running gear.

C

500-600hrs

(Monthly)

8 hrs (32 man-hrs)

As above. Change lubricating oil filters, clean air and fuel filters. Clean radiators. Check engine speed and running. Take lubricating oil sample for chemical analysis.

D

1500-1800hrs

(3 monthly)

16 hrs (72man-hrs)

As above. Check engine tappets. Remove and teat fuel injectors. Examine regulator.

E

3000-3600hrs

(6monthly)

16 hrs (96man-hrs)

As above. Inspect engine cams. Check all control equipment and tighten connections.

F

4500-5400hrs

(9 monthly)

 

This is quoted in some documents but I am unable to find anything about it

* This applied to steam heating generators.

 

Most locos entering a TMD did so for a reason, even if it was for refuelling. If a loco were coming in for servicing or examination it would be refuelled prior to anything else. Some locos coming in for unscheduled repair would be shunted into a siding while awaiting a repair berth. There would be a few locos just coming on shed for stabling normally shunters and locos working ECS trains. On a model it is a fairly safe bet to run most locos on to the fuelling point on entering the shed.

 

From the Modern Railways 1967 article the amount of work done by Toton for a 4-week period was 1410 locos fuelled. A total of 748 were serviced and repaired, comprising of 260 A exams, 194 B exams, 82 C exams, 40 D exams and 17 E exams. This leaves 155 locos, which were repaired without being scheduled for servicing. The article goes on list a total of 353 repairs and modifications to locos but does not state how many locos had more than one repair, nor the number of faults found on examination. To fuel a loco would take sometime. The fuel pumps at Tinsley delivered fuel at 50 gallons per minute, a class 47 had a tank capacity of 850 gallons. Fuelling was normally done at the same time as the A exam, a long with other servicing, and restoring the levels water, sand and oil. 

 

Apart form model locos failing for real (which never happens) how does a modeller decide which engines are due for exams, repairs etc and what level? One method would be to have a card for each loco coming on shed, using the above this would mean 100 cards, divided as follows 58 refuel only, 3 refuel needing light repair (unscheduled), 1 refuel needing heavy repair (unscheduled), 27 A/B exam, 3 A/B exam needing light repair, 6 C exam, 2 D exam, 1 D exam needing heavy repair, 1 E exam, 1 light repair not being refuelled, 1 heavy repair not being refuelled. Add to this a few stabling only cards, for shunters, locos on trip workings and ECS. Shuffle the set of cards and as each loco enters the shed turn over the top card to reveal what action you as Depot Manger/ Foreman have to take in respect to berthing the loco.

 

To me a set of over 100 cards would be too unwieldy therefore for my own depot I use a pack of ordinary playing cards (see track plan). Red cards are for locos going off shed and black for those entering it. On entry the loco halts outside the shunters hut, he directs the loco to its fuel point or siding. If the card is a 2 ♠ then it is a shunting loco coming on for stabling purposes only, 2 ♣ a shunter type 1 or type 2 on trip or ECS working for stabling only, these bypass the fuel point. 3, 4, 5 and 6 are refuel only and go to the fuel line, 7 is for double headed locos for fuel only, 8 and 9 is for an A exam at the fuel point. 10 and a picture card is for a loco requiring to go into covered accommodation for exam or repair. A King is for the far road representing the heavy repair or E exam area. As I can never remember which locos are due to go into the shed for exam etc I always move the lead loco on the fuel point into the building.  When moving locos on to the stabling loops I refer back to the last black card, a spade means the loco will be stabled on number 1 or number 3 loop, a club for 2 and 4 loops. This portrays the shed foreman preparing the locos for there next duties. Red cards are for locos going off shed, a diamond from roads 1 or 3 and a heart 2 and 4. One road out of the pair is filling up with locos and the other is emptying. A red 2 releases a loco from the dead end sidings by the staff block, I have found this necessary or these locos never get moved. Picture cards not only release a loco from one of the storage loops but a loco from the shed, again Kings are for the far road. Locos leaving the building are normally placed on to the storage loops before departing the shed.  Aces and jokers are for fuel train, stores, and BTU etc movements.

Runway headshunt was so named after I drove a brand new Hymek off the end of the layout

 

 

 

That sounds as if it adds a lot of interest for the operator but I am not sure that it is the sort of thing that would engage my interest for very long. The thing that makes a good layout to watch for me is that there is a variety of different types of move going on.

 

So a layout with every train just running through doesn't hold me long. One where some wagons are being shunted all the time doesn't either. One with lots of light engine movements and not much else doesn't really work for me either.

 

Now give me a layout that has all those aspects and a few more and I am happy.

 

I think that is why Buckingham really "floats my boat". It has that variety and each train you run doesn't do the same as the previous one.

 

 

[RJS1977]

One other aspect of loco shed layouts - from an exhibition manager's point of view:

 

I know someone who has a quite well-known O gauge loco shed layout, which I invited to my show a few years ago. Unfortunately the layout had to be uninvited when I discovered that the insurance value of the stock was more than the rest of the show put together and would have increased the premium too much!

[Clive martin]

As a stand alone depot Hanging Hill was perfection ,correct operation and all those scratch built locos,i think depots work best as part of a larger layout the depot on Hornsey Broadway is a good example ,their seems to be to many post privatisation depot layouts about as their are not lots of depots on the network like the good old days of BR also these layouts with a few exceptions seem to have locos from multiple companys on shed although it could be said that Leicester LIP blows my observation out of the water!

[kevinlms]

On 22/12/2022 at 21:26, RJS1977 said:

One other aspect of loco shed layouts - from an exhibition manager's point of view:

 

I know someone who has a quite well-known O gauge loco shed layout, which I invited to my show a few years ago. Unfortunately the layout had to be uninvited when I discovered that the insurance value of the stock was more than the rest of the show put together and would have increased the premium too much!

That was the problem, your insurance for an exhibition should be about public liability/damage to the building and NOT the individual layouts value.

It should be up to the owner to provide insurance cover on their own layout, because they know (or should do) the value of it and what it consists of. You can't know except from what they tell you and that may not be accurate at all - leaving you to argue with the insurance company, if something goes wrong.

 

I wonder what was the outcome from that club's exhibition that got severely vandalised (and many people made donations to the hosting club), it was reported on RMweb a few years ago.

[Dagworth]

36 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

It should be up to the owner to provide insurance cover on their own layout, because they know (or should do) the value of it and what it consists of. You can't know except from what they tell you and that may not be accurate at all - leaving you to argue with the insurance company, if something goes wrong.

You've obviously never exhibited then have you? The exhibition provides insurance cover from the moment the layout leaves home to the moment it arrives home again, no insurance then the layout stays at home. If I had to provide that insurance you can bet your ass that is going on the exhibition expense claim alongside the van hire and fuel.

 

Andi

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Dagworth said:

You've obviously never exhibited then have you? The exhibition provides insurance cover from the moment the layout leaves home to the moment it arrives home again, no insurance then the layout stays at home. If I had to provide that insurance you can bet your ass that is going on the exhibition expense claim alongside the van hire and fuel.

 

Andi

Perhaps you should note that I'm not in the UK, before you accuse me of not having exhibited - how rude!

 

My club had an insurance policy that covered our layout, whether it was in the clubrooms or TAKEN TO AN EXHIBITION, as long as it was an official event the club attended. So we didn't need to impose on another club to cover our layout, for damage/theft.

 

So there you go, there ARE other ways. Check with your insurer as to what you can get coverage for, before lecturing.

[martin_wynne]

22 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

So there you go, there ARE other ways. Check with your insurer as to what you can get coverage for, before lecturing.

 

But you were lecturing too:

 

That was the problem, your insurance for an exhibition

should be about public liability/damage to the building and NOT the individual layouts value.

 

But not to worry, it happens on RMweb all the time. Including from me. 🙂

 

Martin.

[kevinlms]

17 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

But you were lecturing too:

 

 

 

 

But not to worry, it happens on RMweb all the time. Including from me. 🙂

 

Martin.

Yes, you're correct. But the public liability insurance is the all important one and if these type of claims get out of hand, then such insurance will get much more expensive or withdrawn entirely.

 

An organisation that I'm associated with, have said that the amount of payouts paid, is more than the amount collected in premiums by the insurer, for the last 12 months.

For now they have covered it with an increase far beyond the inflation rate, but obviously they will be doing some careful sums.

Edited December 24, 2022 by kevinlms

[Chris M]

In the UK the norm is for exhibition organisers to arrange insurance, often through a company called Magnet. I wouldn't want to take a layout (and stock) to an exhibition

without this insurance. I would have thought it would be cheaper for the organisers to take out one insurance policy for the whole show than for each layout to have to take out it's own. Most stock would be covered under household insurance while a layout is at home. In my experience claims are extremely rare. I think there is usually an excess and sometimes where there has been an incident the organising club will cover the cost of the problem rather than go through insurance.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Chris M

[dunwurken]

This is a topic about oldest inspirational layouts NOT exhibition insurance.  Can we get back on topic, PLEASE! 🙏

[martin_wynne]

56 minutes ago, dunwurken said:

This is a topic about oldest inspirational layouts NOT exhibition insurance.  Can we get back on topic, PLEASE! 🙏

 

It's no good telling other people what they should post. If you want to steer a discussion back on-topic you have to do it yourself by posting something on-topic.

 

Here's something half-way on-topic: Who in the hobby has done the most to inspire you?

 

For me I always go back to P. R. Wickham's "A Book of Model Railways" (1949).

 

I got out my time-worn copy to make some scans, and seeing the familiar pages again I spent a happy hour transported over 60 years back in time. Imagine the effect of stuff like this on a boy who thought model railways were what you could see in the Hornby-Dublo catalogue: 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

I hope that's got the topic back a little bit.

 

Martin.