Camel Quay - A North Cornwall inspired layout in 4mm

[The Stationmaster]

Things to do this a.m. hopefully I'll be along later to fill in the blanks on your plan (unless Chris gets here first of course!).

[tender]

Hi

MSE do all you will need for the signals. Their lattice ones look very nice.

Thanks Peter, I've had a look on the MSE website and found the LSWR kit. Nice touch that the instructions were available for download, two pages of text and not many pictures. All sounds very complicated but hopefully when the kit arrives it will start to make sense. Didn't see any ground signals though, maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

 

Ray.

[tender]

Things to do this a.m. hopefully I'll be along later to fill in the blanks on your plan (unless Chris gets here first of course!).

Hi Mike, that's very kind of you, I have a few basic books on model signalling but it still all seems a black art to me.

 

Ray.

[Andrew P]

Hi Mike, that's very kind of you, I have a few basic books on model signalling but it still all seems a black art to me.

 

Ray.

WOTS A SIGNAL?????? :no: :no:

 

bODGIT :nono: :nono:

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike, that's very kind of you, I have a few basic books on model signalling but it still all seems a black art to me.

 

Ray.

Delayed day Ray (knackered after walking to the town and back in the heat - but you're not forgotten so cross your fingers for Friday.  Might even manage to educate that bodgit bloke as well

[Andrew P]

Delayed day Ray (knackered after walking to the town and back in the heat - but you're not forgotten so cross your fingers for Friday.  Might even manage to educate that bodgit bloke as well

Hi Mike, as for edikation, well I must ave mised skool dat dai. :scared:

 

Flodgegit

[RailWest]

Well, Chris was having a BAD day, what with a road diversion 'cos of bridge works, a puncture leading to a damaged tyre that needed replacing, followed by a 50 minute crawl only 1 mile from home thro' two sets of roadwork on a diversion to avoid an accident, all in the sweltering heat - you get the idea - AARRGGHHH !

 

Anyway, I'll leave The Statiomaster to draw the fancy plan and come back later :-)

 

As regards signals posts - providing that your layout date is after the early 1930s when the SR started using rail-built posts, then no problem. L&SWR posts were wooden originally,but then lattice, or rail-built from SR onwards, but it all depended upon when they were installed/renewed and what they had to hand. There are instances of different types being installed at the same location on the date! Variety too in the types of ground-signal to be used.

Edited August 2, 2013 by RailWest

[Donw]

If you only have one or two signals to do the Lattice ones do look nice if you are up for it.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

And now - the signalling plan, such as it is because it's nice and simple but it does involve a number of ground discs.

 

First a comment re the points - in the prototype points no.s 7, 9 & 10 would be handpoints operated by ground staff and not worked from the signalbox - so no signals.  similarly point 8 is 'off scene' so no signals.

 

Assumption  I have assumed the Home Signal for arriving trains is off scene and that depending on sighting or lack of it might have an associated ground disc to deal with shunting movements, but neither are of course visible on the layout.

Because the Home Signal is back in rear of the bridge a ground disc is required at the toe of No. 6 points (a sort of similar arrangement to Padstow and Bude).  Other signals are very straightforward with a disc signal at the toe of what would in the real world be 'box worked points.  The only one I have omitted is on the run round loop and there is - as far as I can see - no logic in providing one however if shunts are regularly made towards that line or trains are received on it then there should also be a disc at the toe of No. 2 points.

 

In reality certain points would be worked as crossovers thus a single lever would work each of 1 & 2, 3 & 6, and added trap and 5.  % & 6 would also have a Facing Point Lock (FPL) - probably worked by the same lever for both of them.

 

Trust that is ok

 

 

 

[Donw]

Although as Mike mentions the home signal is beyond the bridge and not visible you can have a lever for it which works just a lamp/led  (could be a signal if you wanted) to indicate to the fy operator that a train can be accepted which could avoid things being sent while something is in the way.

 

Typical converstion FY op "Do you want the down goods next" meaning shall I send it

              station op" Er yes" meaning I will get ready for it and thinking I must move that horsebox or it wont run round

 

Result Goods appears from the bridge just as the station op is thinking of moving the Horsebox. A signal is a precise message verbal ones can have shades of meaning.

Don

[autocoach]

As I understand it, Padstow retained a lattice post starter signal until the box was removed just prior to abandonment in the 1960's. The home was, I believe, rail built. These were the only two post signals.  The rest were ground signals. See The Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway for more information including the signaling diagram.

 

The MSE signal is of course the correct choice. I just didn't trust my soldering skills so used the LNER lattice post and kitbashed the Padstow home/starter signal in plastic. I have the Ratio rail-built signal kit in store in case I ever get the new layout built that goes more than a few yards beyond the end of the last crossing.

Edited August 2, 2013 by autocoach

[tender]

 

As regards signals posts - providing that your layout date is after the early 1930s when the SR started using rail-built posts, then no problem. L&SWR posts were wooden originally,but then lattice, or rail-built from SR onwards, but it all depended upon when they were installed/renewed and what they had to hand. There are instances of different types being installed at the same location on the date! Variety too in the types of ground-signal to be used.

  

 

If you only have one or two signals to do the Lattice ones do look nice if you are up for it.

Don

 

 

 

As I understand it, Padstow retained a lattice post starter signal until the box was removed just prior to abandonment in the 1960's. The home was, I believe, rail built. These were the only two post signals.  The rest were ground signals. See The Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway for more information including the signaling diagram.

 

The MSE signal is of course the correct choice. I just didn't trust my soldering skills so used the LNER lattice post and kitbashed the Padstow home/starter signal in plastic. I have the Ratio rail-built signal kit in store in case I ever get the new layout built that goes more than a few yards beyond the end of the last crossing.

Hi Chris, Don, Ken.

All the pictures I've seen of the area have the lattice post as the starter signal so I will order one of the MSE signals. I always have the Ratio signal to fall back on if I make a hash of building it. I hope to make it operational using the same DCC servo system as I use for the turnouts.

 

Ray.

[tender]

Mike, many thanks for taking the time to do the signalling diagram, much appreciated. I'll study this tonight along with your text explanation to make sure I understand it completely.

 

Still having problems sourcing suitable ground signals, I think the ratio ones will look a bit naff against the MSE lattice signal.

 

Don, you'll have me doing block signalling next....(whatever that means).

 

Ray.

[buffalo]

...Still having problems sourcing suitable ground signals, I think the ratio ones will look a bit naff against the MSE lattice signal...

 

MSE (Wizard Models) do both a Westinghouse half-disc and Stephen's flap ground signals.  The latter was certainly used by the LSWR and a few survived into BR days on the S&DJR. The Westinghouse type was used on the SR, but I don't know whether they were found this far west. Maybe Mike can identify the one in your Padstow photo?

 

Nick

 

ps. the MSE lattice post is easier to put together than it looks, the post is two pieces folded to make two sides each then soldered together. The etch includes some cunning little jigs that make it all fit very well.

[2ManySpams]

Coming along nicely Ray - I do like Southern Withered Arm layouts, particularly those with a harbour!

 

Nice to see the usual suspects helping out with information too. Good old RMweb.

[tender]

MSE (Wizard Models) do both a Westinghouse half-disc and Stephen's flap ground signals.  The latter was certainly used by the LSWR and a few survived into BR days on the S&DJR. The Westinghouse type was used on the SR, but I don't know whether they were found this far west. Maybe Mike can identify the one in your Padstow photo?

 

Nick

 

ps. the MSE lattice post is easier to put together than it looks, the post is two pieces folded to make two sides each then soldered together. The etch includes some cunning little jigs that make it all fit very well.

Thanks Nick, makes a big difference when you know what you're looking for.

 

Came up with these from the MSE website.

 

SR (ex-LSWR/LCDR style) lattice post upper quadrant signal kit. MSE [s4/KS2]

 

Stevens & Co drop flap ground signals. MSE [GS001]

 

Your comments on the construction are encouraging.

 

Ray.

[RailWest]

If you look closely at the signalling diagram for Padstow in the NCR book (page 171 in the enlarged edition), then you will see that there were in fact four main running signals on posts:- 1 Up Starting, 2 Up Advanced Starting, 17 Down Home and the fixed Down Distant. Only the first of those is likely to appear on your layout and photo evidence suggests that it was always a lattice post.

 

Certainly Westinghouse 'half dics' appeared as far west of Padstow. I would agree with Mike re the possible absence of a 'from loop to platform road' shunt at points 2, but if provided then in later years it might well have been one of the 'yellow' variety and therefore of the 'miniature semaphore' type used by the SR for such purposes (as was Padstow No 6 IIRC).

 

If we ignore for a moment the Quay and Q Loop lines, then I would suggest just one disc at points 3 to cover exit from both the Siding and P loop. Had the Q lines been just a headshunt then it could be a 'yellow' one too, but given the usage of those lines then maybe it is best as a 'red' one and keep the disc reading the other way over 4. Points 4 would be hand-points.

 

For block-working, then the 'obvious' choice would be Tyer's Electric Train Tablet (maybe No 3, better to have No 6), unless you want to assume that BR lashed out money on Key Token (either SR or WR pattren depending upon your timescale.).

 

Incidentally - can you remind me please of the period modelled? No doubt it's in the thread somewhere, but if I try to look back a few pages I shall lose all this reply :-(

[buffalo]

That's the ones, Ray. The Westinghouse ground signal is also there (GS002) (assuming it's appropriate).

 

Nick

 

edit, Chris said it is whilst I was typing.

Edited August 2, 2013 by buffalo

[tender]

Incidentally - can you remind me please of the period modelled? No doubt it's in the thread somewhere, but if I try to look back a few pages I shall lose all this reply :-(

Thanks again Chris, although the 'block working' went way over my head.

 

My original intention was to model the post war SR period, but the timeline has slipped into early/late BR for the time being until I get the chance to sort out some more appropriate stock.

 

Ray.

Edited August 2, 2013 by tender

[Donw]

Ray unless you are a signalling enthusiast block signalling can be a bit of a bind and at an exhibition slow things down. If you had a long run between the station and the fy you might have time to do train entering section and all that. However experience of operating layouts and exbitions has taught me that operators do get confused and a definite signal of some kind can save some embarassing moments. Now that DCC is becoming common the electrical circuits do not protect against conflicting moves. The logical answer is signals. I had the pleasure of operating Bob Harper's Maristow practically every move had to be signalled and there were also trap points so if you made an error you came off the road rather than bashing into another train. It is surprising how much people are interested when the signals work Pulling off a signal can be an indication that something is going to happen. Chris Turnball built a layout of Cromer with a working SPAD I understand this causes much interest especially from railwaymen who normally try to avoid seeing one work.

Another simple measure is to add a switch into the circuit for the starter so it cannot be pulled off unless the fy op sets the switch.

Don

[RailWest]

To be honest, I do not think that 'block working' is really relevant to a layout of this design (shock, horror  ). Where there is a visible and reasonable distance between the modelled station and the fiddle yard, or next part of the layout, perhaps, but in your case it will probably become more of a 'unnecessary frill' than anything.

 

As regards the idea of having the signals control the traction current, one problem there can be the need therefore to provide more extensive signalling than might otherwise have existed. Also, you then have to provide a means of circumventing the controls for those situations where moves past signals at danger would be legitimately authorised.

 

In the case of the proving a 'slot' on the Starting signal for use by the FY operator, then same would also have to apply for those shunt signals which lead out onto the single line, unless the shunt moves will be so short as not to enter the 'tunnel'. Are you actually going to have a separate FY operator anyway - if not then IMHO you will simply make the thing far too complicated and in effect your LH and RH will have to be doing different things!

[pharrc20]

Hi Ray & Polly, a nice looking compact layout I hope I will get to see it sometime at a show. I'm still slowly (very slowly by the speed you have put CQ together oops) on my own layout Speedlow, which one day when I have the time and room get finished...

 

Cheers Paul (friend of Peter trains 12)

[The Stationmaster]

MSE (Wizard Models) do both a Westinghouse half-disc and Stephen's flap ground signals.  The latter was certainly used by the LSWR and a few survived into BR days on the S&DJR. The Westinghouse type was used on the SR, but I don't know whether they were found this far west. Maybe Mike can identify the one in your Padstow photo?

 

Nick

 

ps. the MSE lattice post is easier to put together than it looks, the post is two pieces folded to make two sides each then soldered together. The etch includes some cunning little jigs that make it all fit very well.

Definitely the Westinghouse/SR half disc pattern.  The yellow arm signals - which used a miniature semaphore arm instead of a half disc were exactly the same basic signal except that the had an arm instead of a disc and of course a yellow light at 'on' instead of a red.  As Chris has said they were quite common in the far south west. 

 

 

 

If you look closely at the signalling diagram for Padstow in the NCR book (page 171 in the enlarged edition), then you will see that there were in fact four main running signals on posts:- 1 Up Starting, 2 Up Advanced Starting, 17 Down Home and the fixed Down Distant. Only the first of those is likely to appear on your layout and photo evidence suggests that it was always a lattice post.

 

Certainly Westinghouse 'half dics' appeared as far west of Padstow. I would agree with Mike re the possible absence of a 'from loop to platform road' shunt at points 2, but if provided then in later years it might well have been one of the 'yellow' variety and therefore of the 'miniature semaphore' type used by the SR for such purposes (as was Padstow No 6 IIRC).

 

If we ignore for a moment the Quay and Q Loop lines, then I would suggest just one disc at points 3 to cover exit from both the Siding and P loop. Had the Q lines been just a headshunt then it could be a 'yellow' one too, but given the usage of those lines then maybe it is best as a 'red' one and keep the disc reading the other way over 4. Points 4 would be hand-points.

 

For block-working, then the 'obvious' choice would be Tyer's Electric Train Tablet (maybe No 3, better to have No 6), unless you want to assume that BR lashed out money on Key Token (either SR or WR pattren depending upon your timescale.).

 

Incidentally - can you remind me please of the period modelled? No doubt it's in the thread somewhere, but if I try to look back a few pages I shall lose all this reply :-(

I had a close look at the signal arrangements on the ex LSWR branches in the west and put in separate discs for the siding and P Loop as that seemed to be most typical of that part of the world but as Chris says you can use a single disc to cover the two and you could use a yellow arm version although, again, i stuck with typical and went for red and put in the disc reading the other way through the points for moves from the quay line.  In reality I would think it far more likely to be done - by BR times if not in Southern days - in that way as in theory a passenger run-round could be taking place at the same time as shunting on the quay and doing it the way I have allows that with no qualms.

 

And block working on a layout this size (or many other sizes come to that) - totally unnecessary although an indicator for 'train accepted from the fiddle yard' (or even 'make sure the next train is ready') as suggested by Don might not be a bad idea at busy times.

[tender]

The only one I have omitted is on the run round loop and there is - as far as I can see - no logic in providing one however if shunts are regularly made towards that line or trains are received on it then there should also be a disc at the toe of No. 2 points.

 

Hi Mike.

Been studying your signal diagram and just want to check if I've got this right.

 

Assuming the Siding is occupied, a train arriving with wagons destined for the quay would enter the P Loop and then shunt back to the Quay (or Q Loop). In this instance would a ground signal be required at the toe of No.2 point as you seem to suggest. And would I be right in saying this would also require the two ground signals at No.3 point in this instance. Chris suggested that maybe only one was required at this point.

 

Don.

I won't be using block signalling, like you say it can slow things down and the size of the layout doesn't warrant it.

The only signal I was going to have operational is the Starter signal by the signal box, I don't ever recall seeing a layout with working ground signals, but then I've probably never looked that closely to notice.

As the layout is DCC controlled, all the routes are set using the macro functions of the NCE Powercab to simplify the route setting. The signal will also be DCC controlled so I guess this could be incorporated within the macros as well. I'll have to have a think about this.

I'll do a separate post describing the macros in more detail later.

Ray.

Edited August 3, 2013 by tender

[Donw]

DCC Macros, you are a bit more modern than me. I like the DCC control because you can forget about electrical sections (not something that affects a steam engine) but for points and signals a switch relates to a lever and that makes sense to me. However I shall be interested in how you do your macros incase I ever go for a route setting box.

Don