GWR Siphon F

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Hello to all the Great Western experts, especially those with a keen focus on brown vehicles.

 

I have this siphon F (pictured) and having tried researching the livery on these vehicles and following the brief description in "Great Western Siphons" by Slinn and Clarke I attempted to reproduce the livery after repainting 1920s onwards using the appropriate sized transfers from HMRS but I am not entirely happy with the result. Any suggestions please, (be nice, I'm new).

 

Thank you in advance for any helpful advice.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

It depends what era you want to represent.  When first built (1903/8?) the GW was on the louvres in 25" lettering. but when repainted approx 1920, was moved to where you have them in 16" letters.

After about 1930 the GW was replaced with the shirtbutton monogram in the triangular panel left of the number.

Hope this helps.   Tony.

Hello Tony,

 

Thank you it does help, as I am modelling the 20s which suggests this is correct just was not sure about how close the 'GW' lettering is to the frames.

Thanks.

[buffalo]

One of the problems with the available transfers is that most come in the standard sizes, either the earlier 25" or the later 16". In practice, these were just preferred sizes that were used if they would fit. In many cases, the GWR used smaller lettering when necessary to fit between framing and other obstacles. If you look at plate 40 on p47 of Slinn & Clarke, you'll see a siphon C as built in the days of 25" lettering*. The letters on the sides are probably no more than about 13 or 14" high to fit in the framing. I suspect a similar size would have been used on the Fs in the twenties, so your 16" letters are probably a bit big. Maybe 2mm scale 25" letters would fit better?

 

Nick

 

ps. the shirtbutton was introduced in 1934 and would only have been seen on siphons at that date if they needed painting. Many wouldn't have received them until the late thirties, if at all.

 

Edit: * according to the corrections, the caption on that photo is wrong. The date is supposed to be 27/9/1920 when the handholes in the doors were made. Strange, though, that it has not been repainted in the new style and retains the end door letters which, incidentally, appear to be a little less than 25".

[N15class]

Were not the siphon F's lettered up for sausage traffic in the late twenties early thirties? I seem to recall from making 4mm ones from Kayser kits.

 

Got me a 7mm one to make too.

[Leander]

Palethorpes?

[buffalo]

The Palethorpes vans were two six-wheel vehicles built to diagram O47 in 1936 (photos in Russell's Coaches Appendix vol 2). The sausage, bacon, etc. traffic normally associated with Siphons is that from Harris of Calne. A number of Siphons C (dia O8 and O9) were branded for this use from about 1932 onwards, though Slinn & Clarke note No 1492 branded 'Calne & Manchester' in Dec 1924 (is this a misprint? perhaps 1934?).. They also say that two Siphons F (Dia O7), 1545 and 1548, were branded "Calne & Newcastle" for Harris traffic in 1950. Russell (Coaches Appendix vol2) has photos of 1546 branded "TO WORK BETWEEN CALNE AND NEWCASTLE" in 1948 and with added "VIA BANBURY" and Harris roof boards in 1952. What I don't know is when the Fs were first used on this traffic.

 

Nick

[Miss Prism]

Quite a lot of detail in a previous thread.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

One of the problems with the available transfers is that most come in the standard sizes, either the earlier 25" or the later 16". In practice, these were just preferred sizes that were used if they would fit. In many cases, the GWR used smaller lettering when necessary to fit between framing and other obstacles. If you look at plate 40 on p47 of Slinn & Clarke, you'll see a siphon C as built in the days of 25" lettering*. The letters on the sides are probably no more than about 13 or 14" high to fit in the framing. I suspect a similar size would have been used on the Fs in the twenties, so your 16" letters are probably a bit big. Maybe 2mm scale 25" letters would fit better?

 

Nick

 

ps. the shirtbutton was introduced in 1934 and would only have been seen on siphons at that date if they needed painting. Many wouldn't have received them until the late thirties, if at all.

 

Edit: * according to the corrections, the caption on that photo is wrong. The date is supposed to be 27/9/1920 when the handholes in the doors were made. Strange, though, that it has not been repainted in the new style and retains the end door letters which, incidentally, appear to be a little less than 25".

Hi Nick,

 

Thank you for your input and for the suggestion of using 2mm transfers, that had not crossed my mind. Now to try and remove the existing transfers!

 

Cheers.

[gwrrob]

A bump for this thread to ask which buffers in the Dave Franks range would be ideal replacements for the old K's ones.

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

A bump for this thread to ask which buffers in the Dave Franks range would be ideal replacements for the old K's ones.

Hi Rob

 

Comparing the HMRS book with various websites, the following seem to fit based on description. However the picture on Mr Franks site does not appear to match with the pictures in the book;

 

http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshiremodelsandsupplieswebsite_064.html

 

The following do appear to match based on the pictures and the fact that I have had a set in my hand this week.

 

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt/2308.php

 

Probably similar are these, I have used a different set of MRDs and like them, infortunately I had to take them apart negating the main benefit of the additional wonga.

 

http://www.emardee.org.uk/epages/BT4589.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT4589/Products/40173

 

Oakhill

[gwrrob]

http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshiremodelsandsupplieswebsite_064.htm

 

Thanks Oakhill.I did think the Dave Franks one was a possibility but having now seen the MJT version now I think its more suitable.

[Il Grifone]

http://www.lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshiremodelsandsupplieswebsite_064.htm

 

Thanks Oakhill.I did think the Dave Franks one was a possibility but having now seen the MJT version now I think its more suitable.

 

The buffers in the above link are fitted wagon buffers and I understand a SIPHON F would have had the long carriage buffers with elliptical heads. These would be similar to the MJT type (which has a round head suitable for four or six wheel vehicles) and presumably also the MRD buffers (The lack of a picture does not help). The etched heads mentioned on the MRD site as in preparation would probably be correct. When I built my SIPHON F (many years ago when the kit was still available new and long before the HMRS book appeared), I filed the K's buffer heads* ellipitical, which are not far off, but one day are marked for replacement.

(I think they are too short(?) and the base should be rectangular - the fixing bolts are too much to ask on a turned brass component - all the later whitemetal versions I've seen are bin fodder, as the two halves do not line up.)

 

*K's buffers came in wagon and round and oval coach types. Neither of the coach buffers are strictly correct for GWR vehicles - the oval head is the wrong shape for earlier stock and the later round head buffers should have square shanks. Their plus point is robustness - brass versions only of course, the whitemetal ones are extremely fragile.

[davefrk]

The buffers in the above link are fitted wagon buffers and I understand a SIPHON F would have had the long carriage buffers with elliptical heads. These would be similar to the MJT type (which has a round head suitable for four or six wheel vehicles) and presumably also the MRD buffers (The lack of a picture does not help). The etched heads mentioned on the MRD site as in preparation would probably be correct. When I built my SIPHON F (many years ago when the kit was still available new and long before the HMRS book appeared), I filed the K's buffer heads* ellipitical, which are not far off, but one day are marked for replacement.

(I think they are too short(?) and the base should be rectangular - the fixing bolts are too much to ask on a turned brass component - all the later whitemetal versions I've seen are bin fodder, as the two halves do not line up.)

 

*K's buffers came in wagon and round and oval coach types. Neither of the coach buffers are strictly correct for GWR vehicles - the oval head is the wrong shape for earlier stock and the later round head buffers should have square shanks. Their plus point is robustness - brass versions only of course, the whitemetal ones are extremely fragile.

Only just noticed this as well as an email from I think gwrrob. Lanarkshire Models don't yet do GWR coach buffers but we are working on it. There are a few different shapes of 'oval' buffer and as Grifone says a few different types of housing too.

Where I take issue with Grifone though is although early white metal buffers like 'Ks' were extremely fragile, modern metals are much different and can be cast into nicely detailed buffers which are much more resilient for our uses, even the whitemetal coupling hooks and buffers fitted to my own stock can take the strain of a 117 wagon test train being roughly shunted back and forth on my own layout. No, modern whitemetal buffers are fine for general use and I haven't yet had any complaints about miss alignments probably because I check every one that goes in a packet.

I have the short 'B set' buffer and the outers on my list for this year plus photos and measurements of other GWR types taken at the NRM.

 

Dave Franks.

[Il Grifone]

I was only referring to the K's buffers which have the same dimensions as the brass ones, giving a thin shank which breaks through just being looked at. Modern ones in pewter are much more robust.

[gwrrob]

Yes it was me Dave and that's great news and I'll wait patiently for the elliptical shaped type needed.

[Porcy Mane]

I'm showing my ignorance of Syphon F buffers here but it's set me wondering if they would have been fitted with rectangular housings similar to other GWR NPSS  stock and milk vans?

Just wondering?

 

Porce

[chrisf]

I've been looking this up at Rob's request.   The photos in 'GW Siphons' show round headed buffers with 12 inch heads.  A close match is MJT's 2308 from Dart Castings.  If. like me you prefer sprung buffers, 2308S will suit.  I must confess that, like Porcy, I had supposed that the rectangular shanked buffer mounted in rectangular stocks would be fitted.  The GW never ceases to surprise ...

 

Chris 

[Il Grifone]

I've been looking this up at Rob's request.   The photos in 'GW Siphons' show round headed buffers with 12 inch heads.  A close match is MJT's 2308 from Dart Castings.  If. like me you prefer sprung buffers, 2308S will suit.  I must confess that, like Porcy, I had supposed that the rectangular shanked buffer mounted in rectangular stocks would be fitted.  The GW never ceases to surprise ...

 

Chris 

 

Panic! Where did I get hold of the elliptical idea? (Dashes to library....)

Answer - Russell's GW Coaches vol. 2 pp. 42/3, on which photos clearly show elliptical bufferheads. This is confirmed by my copy 'GW SIPHONS', though here the photos are not so clear and the heads do actually look circular*. Plate 28 however shows the SIPHON buffer out of alignment with a later large circular buffer. To do this it would have to be elliptical. It would be logical that longer stock requires wider buffers to avoid locking on sharp curves - the prototype suffers from the same problems as we do, just to a lesser degree.

MJT 2308(S) would be fine with the etched buffer faces. My 4 and 6 wheel coaching stock is fitted with these, which are a great improvement over the filed down K's I fitted originally.

 

The large circular headed buffers with rectangular shanks were introduced around 1930 (1929 IIRC) and may have been fitted to earlier stock during overhaul.

 

*A perspective effect - a circle is, of course, a specific case of an ellipse with major and minor axes of identical length.

[chrisf]

I've dashed to my library too ...

 

First, Russell's coaches vol 2, pages 42-43.  In plate 53 the buffers look oval but only slightly, in 56 round [this pic also appears in the Siphons book and Russell's appendix vol 2] and in 54 I'm not sure but it looks more round than oval to me.

 

Whoever said that GW stock is straightforward was - er - mistaken.

 

Chris

[Il Grifone]

Plates 53 and 54 (it says 55 in my copy, but it is obviously an error) are the same vehicle. The very fact that the buffers look round in perspective is an indication that they are in fact elliptical. If they were circular, they would look elliptical (with the major axis vertical). I'll have to calculate the offset with, say, a 4 chain curve.

 

An awful thought, my copy of the book (first edition 1973, price £4.80) is older than the photos were when they were published!

 

"Whoever said that GW stock is straightforward was - er - mistaken."  - I certainly can't disagree with this!

[57xx]

I have the short 'B set' buffer and the outers on my list for this year plus photos and measurements of other GWR types taken at the NRM.

 

     My finger is already hovering over the order button!

[Il Grifone]

Further research in my well worn copy of G.W. Coaches 1890-1954 by M. Harris* has produced the following:-

 

Coaches were fitted with a 2' long buffer, bogie vehicles having an elliptical head. This is the MJT 2308 type. From 1906 a rectangular shank 1' 10" buffer was introduced, so since the SIPHONS F were built in 1906 they could have had this type but appear to have the earlier ones. The familiar large round head buffer with a rectangular shank was fitted from 1929 except for some autocoaches. It is stated that all 2' buffers had been removed from passenger vehicles by 1938, but it would appear that this did not apply to NPCC as the SIPHON F in BR livery seems to still have them (?).

 

The contemporary bullion vans also have elliptical heads, which would suggest that 40 feet was considered sufficient length to require wider buffer heads, as these were only 38 feet long (dimensions over headstocks).

 

*1966 edition (bought new - I must repair the torn spine).