RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 This discussion looks like it'll go on for quite a while. Jason has made some very valid points. So too has Andy. There has been a noticeable change in the attitude of pupils over the last 30 years towards the attitude that Andy refers to. Hard work is no longer perceived as any guarantee of success and a lot of them just expected to get top grades, irrespective of the effort they put in. There are some crap teachers in schools, but even in the state school where I worked for 22 years (4 consecutive "Outstanding" ratings from Ofsted) if there was anyone to blame for pupil's lack of success, it was the teachers - not the lazy kids. As Jason states, kids need appropriate "training" instead of the "one box fits all" approach. I was forced to teach Physics to low ability kids who would rather have gone outside with me and learned how to make concrete and bricklaying skills (which I'd have loved to teach them). This kind of situation is demotivating for everyone. We need the academics and we need the practical people. We also need the workforce to be numerate in basic Maths and literate in basic English. Going back to the original discussion point, this isn't happening. I know I'm woffling on, but here is a good example. Take my A level Physics students. Physics has been officially ranked as the most difficult subject at A level for many years (nonsense!) and the students who took my subject were generally the very best in a given year group (some would have 12 A* top grades at GCSE). Many were able to cope with the calculational side of things. but ask them to write a couple of paragraphs (I don't think they knew what a paragraph was) to EXPLAIN something..... No capital letters, full stops, poor grammar, appalling spelling mistakes - and this from "grade A" English students!! WHY?? Right, time to do some plastering. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 What a nice Sunday to start a rant (well, it's ****** cold outside so no shed work). The culture of promoting second rate performance as being good enough has caused the issues such as Jason, Andy and Jeff mentioned. Perhaps the "feedstock" entering the system is something of a problem too as many kids lack discipline due to their domestic (or lack of) environment. Speaking to some teacher friends, the state comprehensive sector does tend to suffer from a lack of discipline shown as self-discipline by students (perhaps many don't know what that is), lack of confidence / stature / assertiveness by some teaching staff and a fear of being sued may pervade management thinking. A friend who recently retired from a significant grammar school had a better option - his students behaved or would be asked to leave. Since their parents frequently had moved to an extremely expensive catchment area so little johnny (or janie) could attend his school, this gentle discussion almost invariably resolved any issues - that's his wording, not mine. His wife ran a pretty large state primary school and had issues of teachers being threatened by parents, uncontrollable little kids and various other problems. I think there was an issue with the school's Governors being a little timid and fearing confrontation so many cases of ill-discipline were allowed to go unresolved. If we are to dig ourselves out of the present hole, we need to give kids back something to which they can aspire and that will not be the same for every kid. Those who have a practical bent will frequently have less of an academical bent but offering 50% the chance to go to university only means that the standards of university first degrees will suffer. When I was a boy, only 8% went to Uni, a further 10% went to Poly's. Kids may be bright today but things haven't changed so much that 3 times as many are sufficiently skilled to attend FE establishments. No, that move only hid the lack of work opportunities existing at the time by shifting the kids from tertiary education into FE and avoided an outcry about the number of unemployed school leavers. We need to offer more craft training (apprenticeships?) and not strip more profits out of companies for the benefits of shareholders and exec bonuses. We are an over-populated island. We may resolve some of the issues by not allowing unskilled workers to find employment here, by making the post-education environment one where today's school and FE leavers will be valued (that doesn't mean they will be paid huge salaries though), by having a place where there are meaningful jobs for 95% of the available workforce (not call-centres or high proportions of part-time jobs) and by the restoration of respect for those around you. This is not a matter for State control - we have too much of that already. It is a matter of our society's values. The erosion of those makes any restoration harder but certainly we cannot expect any politician of any persuasion to do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2013 One problem mentioned is the reduction is skill in a lot of jobs. I have worked as a service engineer at one time you identified faults then resolved them adjusted things. Typically these days they pull boards out and put in new ones until it works. Often the poor customer pays for a lot of new boards that were not needed. It also means the manufacturers get little idea of what is failing so things never get improved. I came across a lot of people who seemed totally unprepared to work through a problem to find the cause and a resolution. Without that I would feel like a trained monkey. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Btw, speaking of Lunesters. We know Billy is busy until the end of the month. But where has Michael disappeared to? Maybe we've finally driven him TOTALLY crazy? Jeff Hi all, No, not TOTALLY crazy, but just far enough to realise I needed to do something to sort things out. So in the past couple of weeks I've cut back on my time on here (mostly by banning the laptop from the bedroom, so I get more sleep, and actually get up in the mornings), and taken a good hard look at what I do. I've resigned from a couple of committees to reduce my (non-work) workload, decided that home modeling has to take a back seat to the house project (I currently have no floor or walls in the house bathroom and back bedroom), and started to sort my life out. As part of that, OH and I had a chat yesterday, and we've split up, so I've been feeling a little down, but at least I've been able to spend today getting on with things, and actually making some progress! But I'm back, maybe not to the degree I have been in the past, but I'll be keeping track of what you're all up to again... Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 Some tough decisions there, Michael. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Obviously we are all very pleased to see you back on here as your input is never less than considered and insightful. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
emt_911 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hi all, No, not TOTALLY crazy, but just far enough to realise I needed to do something to sort things out. So in the past couple of weeks I've cut back on my time on here (mostly by banning the laptop from the bedroom, so I get more sleep, and actually get up in the mornings), and taken a good hard look at what I do. I've resigned from a couple of committees to reduce my (non-work) workload, decided that home modeling has to take a back seat to the house project (I currently have no floor or walls in the house bathroom and back bedroom), and started to sort my life out. As part of that, OH and I had a chat yesterday, and we've split up, so I've been feeling a little down, but at least I've been able to spend today getting on with things, and actually making some progress! But I'm back, maybe not to the degree I have been in the past, but I'll be keeping track of what you're all up to again... Michael Michael I can empathise with you being in a similar situation. Personally, I've been lucky, spent a bit more time on here and the Lunesters have helped me to retain some sanity. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
emt_911 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Returning to the rant of the day, I consider myself to be fairly lucky. I didn't do very well at school, my fault, I couldn't see the how some of the subjects taught related to real life. I did however have to make sure that my grammer, spelling and punctuation was good due in many ways to my mother. But, I joined the forces and did a proper aprenticeship. I found this pretty easy as I could see the logic of what I was being taught. I have never been afraid of hard, boring, mundane work, (although I do complain about it), and have never expected to land on my feet, not work hard or have everything handed to me on a plate. I am also not afraid of asking to be taught something because I either don't know the answer or how to do something. I have kids of my own and they don't expect to have an easy life. However, many of their friends expect to do very little, if anything, and earn good money from day one for doing as little as possible. University is not for everyone. Unfortunately, we will never regain our manufacturing or repair industries to a level where proper aprenticeships can develop and flourish. Far too much fault finding relies on either a computer or renewing circuit boards until the fault disappears. I only wish I knew what the answer was. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Before I retired I was manager of a large group of laboratories, with disciplines in chemistry, biology, bacteriology and a section bordering on chemical engineering. Three of my section heads were PhD's one of them a lady whose written English was impeccable. The other two were dreadful, and I lost count of the reports, produced by them, for onward submission to the Management Team or other departments, which I returned for rewriting. Sometimes, I gave up and wrote the things myself. They were highly intelligent and pretty good at what they did, just had a mental block when it came to writng understandable reports. Incidentally, I agree with much of what has been said re higher education. When I left scool with three 'A' levels, I started work as an apprentice chemist in a power station. We were granted part time day release, which meant one afternoon and three evenings per week at the local Tech. No Polys in my day. I did well and gained a Technical Exhibition, an award which paid my fees for the next years tuition. It amounted to 12/6d (sixty two and a half pence). Eventually gained a degree but it was hard, but many of my colleagues did the same, it was the norm in the early 1950's. Derek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
emt_911 Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 After spending the last two days out in the cold and snow, I think I've finally thawed out. Should get the chance for some modelling tomorrow as so far, no work this week. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 More astronomical goodness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmVK0ESAyG4& Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 I don't think any of us will truly thaw out for a while - the forecast is still pretty awful for the end of March. As I've run out of plaster, I'm going to start building the last of the hillside structures tomorrow. Complicated - awkward directions of track, 2 tunnels and a curved backscene. In other words, FUN!! Good luck with the work Duncan Derek - spot on attitude. Work hard, study hard, aim high. Respect success. We are ARE far too soft in this country. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 Scott - you put me to shame! When I was 15, many aeons pre-internet, I'd have searched far and wide for stuff like that. Now - I'm far too complacent. It's all there and what do I do? Very good video. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Nah - it's not like I look for it, actually. I did find a couple of sites I used as a reference when I was researching our Finland visit - and one is so full of intersting stuff, I make a daily visit there each morning, the same way I stop by here. I love the way it makes science accessible - a pet trolley of mine. If you look up a fellow by the name of Karl Kruszelnicki, you 'll see someone here in Oz who really has made a difference doing just that: This guy is a real hero of mine: http://www.drkarl.com/home/ Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 Thanks for the link. I'll follow it up. Btw, comet Panstarrs..... since it moved into visibility in the N Hemisphere we've had nothing but solid cloud, cloud and more cloud. Could end up being the coldest (and dullest) March for 50 years here. Pity about the Springsteen - I like his music, but not overly familiar with it. Just shows how big Oz is - when you have to travel 5000km to a concert!!! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hi all, just had a catch up and things look NORMAL, no Polly for a while now, so very little humor. Michael and Duncan, sorry about your plight, BUT let me just say that it is better with the SECOND ONE, but choose carefully, hhahaaaaa Jeff go careful with that saw tomorrow, and don't forget your Elf and Safeteeee , Goggles, Hard Hat, Face Mask, Toe Tectors, High Viz Vest and gloves. AND UNCOIL YOUR EXTENSION LEAD. Bodgit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted March 24, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2013 Hi all, just had a catch up and things look NORMAL, no Polly for a while now, so very little humor. Michael and Duncan, sorry about your plight, BUT let me just say that it is better with the SECOND ONE, but choose carefully, hhahaaaaa Jeff go careful with that saw tomorrow, and don't forget your Elf and Safeteeee , Goggles, Hard Hat, Face Mask, Toe Tectors, High Viz Vest and gloves. AND UNCOIL YOUR EXTENSION LEAD. Bodgit I always uncoil my extension lead, Andy!! I find it allows me to move around better if I do that!! Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2013 Sorry to hear of your domestric troubles Michael. We all need to get our life organised and on course. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 But, I joined the forces and did a proper aprenticeship. I found this pretty easy as I could see the logic of what I was being taught. I have never been afraid of hard, boring, mundane work, (although I do complain about it), and have never expected to land on my feet, not work hard or have everything handed to me on a plate. I am also not afraid of asking to be taught something because I either don't know the answer or how to do something. I have kids of my own and they don't expect to have an easy life. However, many of their friends expect to do very little, if anything, and earn good money from day one for doing as little as possible. University is not for everyone. Unfortunately, we will never regain our manufacturing or repair industries to a level where proper aprenticeships can develop and flourish. Far too much fault finding relies on either a computer or renewing circuit boards until the fault disappears. I only wish I knew what the answer was. Duncan I see it every day Duncan, as I am a PO2 Marine Engineer Artificer in the RCN. So, I got my trade through joining the mob as well. The biggest problem that I see is that there is a over-emphasis on getting %'s of graduates up, and of intergration. Which is to say, at the levels where it starts to matter and division by what you are willing and capable of doing matters, that division is not being done. I'd guess the division level needs to be somewhere between 12-14 years old, and the old style (over here, it was into 3 streams at high school) seemed to work. The best and brightest teachers are not of necessity those who are teaching university prep either !. RxR is a valid repair system, if you understand the basis of the parts you are proposing to replace first...but if you are a clueless 18 year old kid who is working on something for the first time, then you tend to burn a lot more $$$ to find the problem. It doesn't help that we as a society have identified being a cardiologist (MD) as being more important/impressive than being a plumber...not everyone needs a cardiologist (MD), but bl**dy near everyone needs a plumber I think the answer is to set a pass rate rather than a failure rate that is acceptable. Opposite to that which we normally do- but higher level education should NOT be easy to do, you need both effort and aptitude to do it well. Personally, I probably would fail on the effort side not the aptitude part, really. In spite of having what amounts to a 4-5 year education in mechanical devices, it was spread over 15 years... (although I managed to be 2nd/10 in both my more serious courses). As regards attending university for music, one of my mates (PO2 Stoker) is a 3 year uni. graduate for music, and 2 more of my mates who both attended uni. for music are making a living with their skills. (one in classical/studio work, one as a contemporary musician). The stoker worked extensively with Jeff Healey, but the pay was crummy, so he found a real job and he drum's on the side. So, if you are good and seriously driven, you can make your own job as a musician...otherwise, pick some other job ! James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 25, 2013 One of the problems these days is that unless you have a degree it can block progress in your career. The person who has started at the bottom and worked up really knows their stuff but all too often when a management post becomes available they prefer someone with a degree. The company then suffers because the new manager doesn't know and more importantly doesn't have the experience to make descisions. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrkirtley800 Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Stand in a corner and write out 100 times the word scool -- er -- skool -- er -- shool -- er -- school. Never use a word checker Derek Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium southern42 Posted March 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 25, 2013 Hi all, just had a catch up and things look NORMAL, no Polly for a while now, so very little humor. .................................. Bodgit Back now, Andy. :yes: Hopefully, humour will return - tough when life's nowt to laugh about. - Hope things getter better for you Michael. Weather wasn't a laugh either... Polly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Hi Polly, glad you and Ray are back safe and well, Did you exhibit at Allypalliesillsallymilliebilly? yo wer misd Bot god Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Seeing as I missed all the fun of Ally Pally, who's going to be at York next weekend? I'll be there Saturday and Monday operating Water Houses and Longnor. Do say hello if you're there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jason T Posted March 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 25, 2013 Not going to York show unfortunately Michael, I'm all exhibitioned out for the time being. As a side note, the archery harness thing you are wearing in your avatar looks like a gigantic one-sided bra Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelW Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Given what happened last time you came up to Yorkshire for a show, I'd've been surprised if you had been allowed out Erm, yes, quite... That is, in effect, what it is... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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