Understanding old timetables

[rovex]

Hi, I was wondering if the group could put its collective heads together and help me out with interpreting old timetables.

 

When I finally start running trains on my very longwinded model (please don't hold your breath), I'd like to run them to some kind of timetable rather than just play trains. To this end I invested in a copy of the 1947 GWR timetable and started pulling the information out for Birmingham Snow Hill - not an easy task given that it is spread throughout the book. I'm at four pages and counting so far. It's very unlikely that I will run trains to the result but it's a source of inspiration

 

Recently I purchased a copy of the 1939 winter timetable for the Birmingham and Worcester Districts on a certain auction website. I thought this might be a bit easier to digest.

 

However, whilst I know some people have problems understanding train timetables until now I've never been one of them, but then my experience of trains starts at a period when trains were no longer split or amalgamated on route. So reading the timetable was relatively easy; you started at the station at the top and passed through each station listed below, the time passing as you did so.

 

So you will understand my confusion when time appears to run backwards when considering certain routes in the old timetable.

 

Example 1

 

 

If you consider the 1:30 am departure from Paddington (first column), This arrives at Leamington at 3:26. then takes three hours to get to the next station on the line (Warwick) before proceeding to Stratford at 7:47, and then arriving in Birmingham at 4 am (almost four hours earlier!)

 

Now I think the explanation for this is that one train leaves Paddington at 1:30, at Leamington it splits, with part of it presumably sitting around at Leamington for several hours before proceeding to Warwick and then leaving the mainline to go to Stratford. The rest of the train proceeds direct from Leamington to Birmingham arriving at 4am. Best to make sure you're sitting in the right part of the train.

 

 

Now in this second example lets consider the 7:02 from Worcester Shrub Hill to Shrewsbury. A simple scan down the third column on the top of the timetable shows the clock wander back and forth as you go down the column.

 

Again I think this is the sequence of events:

 

Train A leaves Worcester at 7:02 travelling towards Wolvrhampton on the mainline before leaving it at Hartlebury to travel via Stourport on Severn and arriving at Bewdley (I still can't explain Cutnall Green at 6:53?)

 

Train B leaves Wolverhampton LL at 5:35, arrives at Birmingham and then reverses out of Birmingham travelling to Kidderminster before arriving at Bewdley at 7:48.

 

Train A and Train B are then joined together and travel on towards Buildwas.

 

Next mystery the Much Wenlock (MW) train appears to arrive (9.08) 40 minutes after is have departed (8.34)? Now MW is not on the direct route to Shrewsbury so again I am assuming that either this is two connecting services (but this offends my sense of logic as I would expect this to have its own timetable entry or at least a note to tell passengers to change trains) or a coach is taken off the train at Buildwas and proceeds forward to MW arriving at the same time as a coach from train C which left MW at 8:34 is attached. Now while this seems logical to me it does seem unnecessarily complicated.

 

Leaving Buildwas the train proceeds to its final destination.

 

Now that is my interpretation of these timetable entries but it is only an educated (?) guess.

 

Someone on here must know more about interpreting these old timetables and can I am sure enlighten me to the correct interpretation.

 

Over to you guys

 

Dean

[The Stationmaster]

It will take more time than I have at this time of night to explain it but one basic tip is to distinguish (if you can - sometimes it is not at all easy!!) between heavy type and light type and to look at all the connecting tables.

 

You're more or less there on the 07.02 Worcester - at Bewdley it has a connection (it might or might not be through coaches which are attached but looks as tho it is) from Wolverhampton, at Buildwas it connects for Much Wenlock, arrive 09.08, and it has a connection in which left Much Wenlock at 08.34.   

 

Cutnall Green is probably a connection as well but there is a horizontal line not inserted above it (to maintain clarity  probably).

 

More later today if garden etc allows time.

[caradoc]

I think the key to the 0130 ex Paddington is that, apart from Paddington itself, the times shown are arrivals; Therefore, as you have deduced, this is a Paddington-Wolverhampton train with a portion for Stratford, however it is not a Stratford to Birmingham service.

[Silver Sidelines]

Today's young people can all drive thier smart phones.  In days gone by they would have learnt how to read a paper timetable.

 

We were better schooled?

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Poor Old Bruce]

I think the key to the 0130 ex Paddington is that, apart from Paddington itself, the times shown are arrivals; Therefore, as you have deduced, this is a Paddington-Wolverhampton train with a portion for Stratford, however it is not a Stratford to Birmingham service.

I would suggest that, rather than a through portion to Stratford, it was a later train from Leamington to Stratford which necessitated hanging about for some time.

[Gwiwer]

Just as it is not always apparent in today's printed (and electronic) timetables whether a particular train is "through" between all stations where there is a time in the same column so it was back in history.  My July 1922 "Bradshaw" shows many examples similar to the OP.  On almost every page in fact.

 

There is often a note somewhere (typically somewhere obscure) to the effect that the intending passenger should ascertain before travelling if and where a change of carriage is necessary.  To include footnotes for every stop and in every case where a change was required does nothing to aid clarity even if it might present a more full and complete picture.

 

Back in 1939 there were plenty of staff around to ask if you weren't sure.  Even at tiny unstaffed halts you could ask the train guard as you boarded.

[jamie92208]

Just a thought.  The 1.30 may well have been mainly a newspaper and mail train so the passenger coaches would have gone on after splitting leaving the reat to be unloaded.

 

 

Jamie

[kevinlms]

OK some possible answers here. But I admit I don't know a lot about GWR timetables, but I would assume their similar to the LMS timetable I have for 1946 & Bradshaws 1922 - but in storage so cannot check.

 

A question, are these the first page of the respective timetables, because normally the 1st one shows some distances? These usually help but not repeated for 2nd & subsequent pages - saves space.

 

 

Looking at the 2nd example of the 7 02 departure.

 

It gets to Droitwich Spa at 7.17

 

Now for the mystery Cutnall Green 6 53, a place that apparently never had a station. But perhaps its a connecting BUS service timed to arrive at Droitwich Spa in time for the train, maybe from a GWR owned hotel or similar?

 

Under Cutnall Green its underlined, presumably because the next station (Hartlebury) is a junction.

 

In our instance its a through train, so it doesn't matter, but note the stations Worcester to Droitwich Spa are indented, because it could relate to different trains.

 

Train continues via Stourport to Bewdley and arrives at 7 43. Bewdley underlined as its a junction.

 

 

Next is another set of indented stations. Wolverhampton LL, Birmingham SH & Kidderminster, with odd times. These are the times that you would need to catch trains from the respective places to get to Bewdley in time to go forward on our ex- 7 02.

 

 

Next is the departure of our train at 7 52 - a 9 minute wait for passengers off these connecting services. It continues without event to Iron Bridge at 8 47. Next arrival is at 8 51 at Buildwas for a 4 minute stop.

 

Our train departs at 8 55 for Shrewsbury arriving at 9 21

 

While the train was at Buildwas, passengers for Much Wenloch would have changed arriving there at 9.08.

 

 

The dep. times for Much Wenloch (8 34) shows what time a passenger would have left by to catch our train at Buildwas for Shrewsbury.

 

 

No through carriages on this train as Worchester to Shrewsbury direct.

 

 

 

Hope this helps. Once you understand some principles, it starts to fall into place.

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

In those days there would've been station staff around to ask if it was the correct train to your destination, or where one maybe had to change.

[The Stationmaster]

Just to get some confusion etc out of the way re the 07.02 from Worcester it is - as I said above - all a matter of distinguishing between the different sorts of typeface, and that is not easy.

 

As far as Cutnall Green is concerned it was a halt situated between Droitwich and Hartlebury that closed in 1965 (and anyone in any way familiar with 'The Book of Routes' for passenger tickets would remember it well as it was a routeing station, i.e. some tickets would bear the detail 'via Cutnall Green').  As far as the 07.02 from Worcester was concerned the time from Cutnall Green was one for connecting passengers - who would travel from there on the 06.35 Worcester S.H. - Birmingham Snow Hill and change at Hartlebury.

 

As I said above I think what has happened with Cuttnall Green is that a line above it has been omitted (probably for clarity, possibly because it is on line of route) and the line beneath it effectively indicates that it involves a change of train/is a connecting service - in the same way as is indicated by the lines above and below the Wolverhampton - Bewdley block of stations.

 

As far as the London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton table is concerned it appears to be a summary table hence it won't contain mileages (although these were in any case not always consistently shown in public timetables).

[EddieB]

Timetables were (and I guess still are) broken up into a number of blocks to show connecting services.  Connecting stations are shown offset on the timetable and are usually detailed on a separate timetable page.  Therefore the second example covers Hartlebury-Shrewsbury with timings for connections at other stations. 

 

It would appear that the 7:29 ex-Hartlebury started as the 7:02 ex-Worcester (the Worcester-Droitwich section covered in more detail elsewhere).  There is a train from Cutnall Green which forms a connection at Hartlebury.  Likewise a train from Wolverhampton LL makes a connection at Bewdley.

 

Much Wenlock is reached via a connecting train from Builwas.  However another train is shown as departing earlier from Much Wenlock, this being the connecting service for passengers wishing to catch the onward service from Buildwas to Shrewsbury.

 

Study thos indents and it all makes sense.

 

Modern timeables use bold and italics to distinguish between the through and connecting trains, often with a letter in the column heading referencing a note as to the origin or destinatination.

[The Stationmaster]

Just to clarify - the 07.02 From Worcester S.H. was indeed a through train to Shrewsbury.

[rovex]

Thanks guys the light begins to dawn.

 

What didn't help in trying to interpret the timetable is that except for the usual letter key at the bottom of each page/timetable, there is no "users guide" printed in either this or the 1947 timetable.

 

As an aside, further interesting points shown on the timetables (not either of the above though) is slip workings, that certain trains were made up of only one class and some are specifically referred to as being a streamlined railcar.

 

thanks again

 

Dean

Edited April 4, 2013 by rovex

[Panelman]

From a modelling perspective, the Working Timetable issued to staff is probably a much more useful (and user-friendly!) document, as it will show all the trains booked to run on a given route, including parcels, empty stock and light engine movements. There will be a clear indication of the originating and terminating points of the trains.

 

There is usually a good selection of WTTs available on ebay. I have a modest collection of BR (WR) WTTs from the 50s and early 60s, so might be able to help if you need information on a specific location. I've been compiling a timetable for my Oxford-based layout so it's possible i have the information to hand.

 

Kevin

[rovex]

Thanks Kevin

 

I keep an eye on ebay, but so far haven't seen any working timetables for the Birmingham area.

 

Dean

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Dean,

Go to this website and you'll find many old WR WTTs, including the Birmingham area.....

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/default.aspx?atk=572

Regards,

Peter

Edited May 11, 2013 by Western Sunset

[Pacific231G]

Dean,

Go to this website and you'll find many old WR WTTs, including the Birmingham area.....

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/default.aspx?atk=572

Regards,

Peter

This is an incredible resource and Michael Clemens is really generous to have uploaded so much rich data. I'm now going to figure out all the trains my grandfather worked through his box in the 1950s.

[rovex]

Thanks Peter, a really interesting site, I can see that I am going to have order more black ink for the printer.

 

Dean

[JohnClarkson]

I have a similar problem with this old timetable. It dates from 1914 and was in use we think still in July of 1915. Your group thoughts would be much appreciated:-

 

1. Derby (dep 5.50am) to St Pancras, London, via change at Leicester

 

Are there any stops on the way other than changing at Leicester?  My interpretation is as follows:-

 

The passengers would board at Derby at 5.50 am. The train does not stop anywhere and arrives at Leicester 7.05. Here they wait until the 7.15 am arrives. It leaves at 7.18 am. There are no stops on the way to St Pancras, and it is schedule to arrive at 9.20 am.

 

However, there are lots of little numbers shown, some illogical and clearly if I am going on what is said above in this discussion, refer to other services, directions to different stations,  trains etc?  Thus I think neither of these trains from Derby to Leicester or Leicester to St Pancras stop anywhere on their way. Am I right?

 

2. Which route was used? The maps of the period are very confusing! I cannot seem to work out which lines are used. My assumption is that the journey to Leicester is via Spondon, Borrowash, Drayton, Breaston, Kegworth, Hathern, Loughborough, Sileby, Syston,  and arrives at Leicester. This train does not stop at any of these stations on its way, not even Loughborough. My assumption is it is an early morning express train. Does anyone know which lines were in use by 1915?

 

3. Also, does this train drop a SC - slip carriage at Luton? It's in big letters, so my feeling it does! However, your advice would be much appreciated please.

 

4. What kind of carriages and locomotive would have been used on this line in 1915? I believe that back then most carriages were not through - there were no joins between the carriages. Instead they just had toilets and a corridor dividing each carriage 1st from 3rd. I might be wrong, as I'm no expert. What kind of locomotives would have been used?

 

Thank you kindly.

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by JohnClarkson

[Aire Head]

34 minutes ago, JohnClarkson said:

I have a similar problem with this old timetable. It dates from 1914 and was in use we think still in July of 1915. Your group thoughts would be much appreciated:-

 

1. Derby (dep 5.50am) to St Pancras, London, via change at Leicester

 

Are there any stops on the way other than changing at Leicester?  My interpretation is as follows:-

 

The passengers would board at Derby at 5.50 am. The train does not stop anywhere and arrives at Leicester 7.05. Here they wait until the 7.15 am arrives. It leaves at 7.18 am. There are no stops on the way to St Pancras, and it is schedule to arrive at 9.20 am.

 

However, there are lots of little numbers shown, some illogical and clearly if I am going on what is said above in this discussion, refer to other services, directions to different stations,  trains etc?  Thus I think neither of these trains from Derby to Leicester or Leicester to St Pancras stop anywhere on their way. Am I right?

 

2. Which route was used? The maps of the period are very confusing! I cannot seem to work out which lines are used. My assumption is that the journey to Leicester is via Spondon, Borrowash, Drayton, Breaston, Kegworth, Hathern, Loughborough, Sileby, Syston,  and arrives at Leicester. This train does not stop at any of these stations on its way, not even Loughborough. My assumption is it is an early morning express train. Does anyone know which lines were in use by 1915?

 

3. Also, does this train drop a SC - slip carriage at Luton? It's in big letters, so my feeling it does! However, your advice would be much appreciated please.

 

I'm slightly confused here as I can't see the train you are referring to as the only 5:50 departure from Derby appears to be a very different train.

 

 

I have highlighted the one I think you are talking about which doesn't show a Slip Coach for Luton.

 

From what I can make out the train departs Derby at 5:50 stopping at every station on its way to Leicester where it appears to terminate.

 

Additional confusion is shown by stops at Harpenden and St Alban's however no arrival time is shown for St Pancras. It is possible that this second set of data is for a different train however I can't see any other information regarding what this would be.

[john new]

I think the 05:50 you mention was a southbound multiple portion working to Leicester only not St Pancras, albeit any passengers from north of Leicester (other than Nottingham) would need to use it to reach London at 9:20.
 

Two portions, one starting from Derby (05:50) and the other from Nottingham (05:52) combining at Trent with stops then onward to Leicester. That makes sense as Derby to Nottingham passengers would get off it at Trent* and get a separate eastbound train to Nottingham. That is why the Nottingham arrival time is both above the departure in the list and after it seems to have already  left. Similar scenarios as you go down the column. 
 

As @Aire Head says a Derby to London passenger would have needed to change at Leicester onto the 07:18 to St Pancras arr 9:20.  That through train had come south via Nottingham, presumably on the Erewash Valley route (thus missing out Derby) and not calling at any of the intermediate stops which is why by getting that one a pax for London needn’t depart Nottingham until 06:35. 
 

* NB Trent was a very complex location, worth a study anyway.
 

Edited February 9, 2022 by john new
Aiding clarity

[john new]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

 

I'm slightly confused here as I can't see the train you are referring to as the only 5:50 departure from Derby appears to be a very different train.

 

 

I have highlighted the one I think you are talking about which doesn't show a Slip Coach for Luton.

 

From what I can make out the train departs Derby at 5:50 stopping at every station on its way to Leicester where it appears to terminate.

 

Additional confusion is shown by stops at Harpenden and St Alban's however no arrival time is shown for St Pancras. It is possible that this second set of data is for a different train however I can't see any other information regarding what this would be.

I think the St Albans 08:48 arrival relates to the train in the previous column and the P (actually called a pilcrow) which relates to what happens on non-Bank Holidays & not 3rd April when pax for St Albans would have had to change at Harpenden. 
 

Edited February 9, 2022 by john new

[bécasse]

The table that you have shown appears to comprehensively cover only the line from Trent (then a major multi-way junction, albeit with little local traffic) to Bedford, note that the station bank has references to other tables which doubtless show services between those stations in a more comprehensive manner.

The 550 from Derby to Leicester may add a portion from Nottingham at Trent or it may merely be a connection, almost certainly the Nottingham arrival time is a connection, looking at the separate Derby-Trent-Nottingham table would provide more information (as it is also possible that the 550 from Derby goes to Nottingham and it is the 552 from Nottingham that goes to Leicester). The important thing for a passenger timetable of that era is that all the journey opportunities are shown.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

As others have said, the 05:50 from Derby to Leicester is a stopping service via Trent. Comparing how the Nottingham times are printed with, for example, Cambridge (which definitely refers to connecting services), I think that both Nottingham times are connections rather than portions of the same train, but the Nottingham to Trent timetable should give more information.

 

The service to St Pancras in the next column begins from Nottingham at 06:35, except on Saturdays when it begins at Leicester (the 3 minutes at Leicester is impossibly tight for a connecting service), and calls at Loughborough (SX), Leicester, Kettering, Wellingborough and Bedford. You will need to check the notes to see what LP and SC refer to, but SC could be a slip coach, and appears to be described in the following column, being slipped at Luton and then hauled onwards to Harpenden and St Albans.

 

Always ignore anything in the same column beyond a double line. Double lines were used to put several trains in the same column.

 

[caradoc]

SC is indeed a slip coach at Luton - The note bottom right of the timetable page refers !