RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted April 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2013 Having had Abbotswood out at the weekend am always looking for improvements. The way we are currently wired any short shuts down ECoS and stops everything - not good. Probably 80% of the shorts arise at the two ends of the fiddle yard esp. when we are putting those 1co-co1 thingies on the track with their wheels going everywhere. Want to make those boards separate power districts with their own trips that will trip before ECoS. Does anyone have advice experience please? Thanks in advance Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10000 Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Quick and cheap solution to the shorts caused by putting stock on the track is get a railer. Cured most of my shorts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted April 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2013 Where we can we fit switches to each fiddleyard road so each road can be swtched off while locos are put on the rails. This is how we do it on 'Roundhouse' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danemouth Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Where we can we fit switches to each fiddleyard road so each road can be swtched off while locos are put on the rails. This is how we do it on 'Roundhouse' I do the same on Danemouth - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66420-danemouth-mk-2/?p=949976 Regards, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2013 Having had Abbotswood out at the weekend am always looking for improvements. The way we are currently wired any short shuts down ECoS and stops everything - not good. Probably 80% of the shorts arise at the two ends of the fiddle yard esp. when we are putting those 1co-co1 thingies on the track with their wheels going everywhere. Want to make those boards separate power districts with their own trips that will trip before ECoS. Does anyone have advice experience please? PSX is the name to look for. Make each fiddle yard a Power District, with another for any yards or sidings on the visible part of the layout - that's where all your derailments and shorts occur - with the running lines a 4th district. These things use electronics to do the power control, not the relay-based alternatives used by some manufacturers, and can be adjusted over a wide range of trip values. Not cheap, but what is your layout's public "cred" worth? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 If on a budget, you could try the light bulb current limiter method. Wire a car indicator bulb in series with the track supply, this limits the current to the track beyond the lightbulb to about 2A. If the loco is put on incorrectly, shorting the track, the light bulb should illuminate at about 2A of current, and not draw any more. Make sure the bulb is mounted in a sensible holder with adequate ventilation around it - a 21W bulb can get very hot. I'm not totally happy with light bulb current limiters for protecting DCC systems (they only limit current, not turn it off), but in the case of a fiddleyard and putting stock on the track, it might be an appropriate solution. Otherwise, tempted to suggest the PSX as Ian suggests, but I have no experience of those with an ECoS. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted April 9, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2013 Phil, Aside from adding switches to the fiddle yard roads which would certainly help, you could try DCC circuit breakers such as the NCE EB3 and similar. This is what I've used on the non signal protected sections of Ravensclyffe so that if someone runs a wrong point it only shuts down the local area (The NCB or the Reception roads) rather than killing the main lines as well. I did find problems with trying to run double motored Hornby locos with the EB3s as they shut down without a short but there are other makes out there as well. The other thing that may help would be some form of signals (even just red/green LEDs) in the fiddle yard that showed whether an individual road had a route out to the scenic section. These could be run straight off of the unused frog switches of the tortoises. This would stop crashed points from causing shorts. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Double check that circuit breakers work with the ECoS. I've read on forums that it cuts out so fast that it will still cut the power to the whole layout before the circuit breaker has a chance to do so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 8, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2015 Thanks for the thoughts folks. As am now moving towards thinking about phase 2 am going to dip toe in the water by in effect splitting the existing layout in half - just wont connect the back fiddle yards to the front scenic sections via the current bus circuit. Will then power the fiddle yard independently via a 50010 booster. Means that traction and point/signal control will still be on a common bus on each of the two halves of the layout but hopefully meaning that things will keep running out the front even if we create a short in the fiddle yard. If that works then with phase two will add a third bus to give one each for the two circuits plus a separate one for points/signals. More would probably be better but we'll have to see about that.... And more buses means more connections between boards too....only have two way at the moment Cheers Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2015 Ah!! Separate feeds to the front, the fiddle yard and the points, already built in if you model DC :sungum: Hat, coat.........I will close the door quietly so you don't notice me leaving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Have you considered a Footswitch to cut power in the yard? This would leave hands free, and be cheap (use a guitar pedal??) NMRA Terminology: Power District = track and-or accessory bus powered from the Central Unit or separately powered Booster. A SUB DISTRICT is created = when splitting a power district into 2 or more isolatable sections such as with the PSXs or manually switched, but still sharing the same DCC power source (ie the Central Unit or the same Booster) It is usual or preferable to physically isolate BOTH rails between both Power Districts AND Sub Districts. However many electronic breakers only cut 1 connection .... it is therefore good practive to ensure that multiple PSXs etc are used with the same polarity to be fully effective ( or a train bridging sections will not be protected by them ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2015 Have you considered a Footswitch to cut power in the yard? This would leave hands free, and be cheap (use a guitar pedal??)Using a switch would not solve the problem of a short in the fiddle yard bringing the front of the layout to a halt, the ECoS would still shut down. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Using a switch would not solve the problem of a short in the fiddle yard bringing the front of the layout to a halt, the ECoS would still shut down. Andi Phil: I was assuming that the 'short' only occured during the placement of the loco - and if the yard is isolated during this time by the foot on the footswitch, and only reinstated when the loco is believed to be back on the track, then it avoids the quoted cause of the problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 8, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2015 Hi Phil Thanks for your thoughts - is something we had contemplated but the flaw is you may not know the short still exists when you switch back on and as Andi says ECoS would still shut down Cheers Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted November 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2015 Just a thought. As I am not a fan of independent circuit breakers, having loads of trouble trying to get a PSX type to work with my MRC/Gaugemaster system - which it wrecked, would a solution be to use the car light-bulb system Nigel mentions combined with section switches for the fiddleyard power districts and leave the main districts i.e. the main layout just via a straight ECoS command station connection - so the circuit breaker worked immediately? What I was thinking was that the bulb would indicate a short after railing a loco and you could switch off the power until corrected, or even before to rail the loco, and should a short be found remove the power again until right. This would help prevent the C/B kicking in but stop the command station being subjected to constant lower level overloads, if I'm thinking this through correctly. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Phil If most the problem is railing them lovely 1Co-Co1 locos, how about one of these or one of these Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 9, 2015 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Phil If most the problem is railing them lovely 1Co-Co1 locos, how about one of these or one of these Great minds etc - we have two ramps available, only problem is staff (including yours truly!) keep forgetting to use them.... Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I use the Lenz system & had a similar problem on 'Crewlisle'. I find the PSX-1 circuit breakers work OK. I have fitted LEDs to each section to indicate whether I have power to both the high & low levels - one green for power to the PSX-1, second green for power from PSX-1 to track & red to indicate a short on that section. No lights at all indicates no power to the layout or complete shut down from the LH90 'off/panic' button! See my No. 9 post in 'Stalling' in this DCC Section. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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