Fords at Dagenham

[Guest Isambarduk]

"...  with other info should be enough for me."

"Done a basic design of the Ford loco based on info I have"

 

You only have to ask me nicely and I'll scan my 7mm dimensioned sketches for you!  David

Edited April 9, 2017 by Isambarduk

[PhilJ W]

Done a basic design of the Ford loco based on info I have

I plan to build it in HO , using a Bachmann chassis.

Could it be upscaled to 00?

[PhilJ W]

I've read the BRM article on this (model) locomotive and spotted an error. What are described as fuel tanks, the three cylinders between the bogies are in fact air cylinders. The fuel tank is behind the #1 cab opposite the radiator, the purpose of the fold away ladder is to gain access to the fuel filler on the roof. The reason for the air cylinders other than braking was that their principle duty was moving coke hoppers  from the coking plant to the iron smelters, the hoppers had air operated bottom doors. The hook coupling, and an exhauster to operate vacume brakes were only fitted after it went to the K&ESR, it was only fitted with a buckeye coupling and air brakes in service at Fords.

Edited April 8, 2017 by PhilJ W

[rue_d_etropal]

It does surprise me that there isn't more published info on these locos. It woud make it easier for modellers and historians, and anyone interested in the loco. All too easy to be misled by condition in preservation. If the info is out there, please could someone publicise it.

[PhilJ W]

It does surprise me that there isn't more published info on these locos. It woud make it easier for modellers and historians, and anyone interested in the loco. All too easy to be misled by condition in preservation. If the info is out there, please could someone publicise it.

I did have a lot of info on these locomotives but unfortunately it was lost. This included a photograph of #3 at the manufacturers awaiting delivery. There were a few notable differences. The cast numberplates were mounted where the Ford logo was later placed, they had standard round buffers of normal size and a single headlamp on the roof above the cab door. It would be interesting to know how they were transported to Dagenham when new, as part of a goods train or under their own power.

[rue_d_etropal]

That single headlamp would be useful, as my GE70 chassis has single lights both ends. Saves me having to do a big mod.

[PhilJ W]

That single headlamp would be useful, as my GE70 chassis has single lights both ends. Saves me having to do a big mod.

Later photographs show two headlights virtually identical to to the original single headlight.

[rue_d_etropal]

I plan to build what would have been a  forth loco for another company. An excuse for a bit of variation on the design.Will probably have to modify my lights anyway, toposition them better.

Edited April 9, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[PhilJ W]

I plan to build what would have been a  forth loco for another company. An excuse for a bit of variation on the design.Will probably have to modify my lights anyway, toposition them better.

Why stick with a fourth loco? Imagine if BTH put them into production for the open market. They would have to increase the power rating though as IIRC the Allen engine was only rated at about 150 hp. This could be achieved by offering a variety of engine/traction motor options.

[Nearholmer]

It is asserted earlier in this thread that "diesel was still in its infancy" when the BTH locos were built, but that rather underestimates what was going on ....... when looked at globally, it was a period when the size of engines that might be viable for traction purposes was climbing rapidly. Look at what Beardmore was supplying from the UK earlier than this, for instance.

 

I think one needs to look for factors other than engine development to explain why the GE design that BTH built wasn't popular in the U.K., and an obvious one is that it has two cabs, not one. It is really a fast-becoming outdated GE design, BTH having originated as the British arm of GE, rather than a "state of the art" switcher of the time, which was probably the contemporary Alco 300 end-cab.

 

In short the U.K. the LMS took diesel loco development for domestic use most seriously, and they quickly fastened on a single cab approach, as, of course, did US and other builders, for switchers.

 

Fascinating oddity in the U.K. context though.

 

Kevin

Edited April 10, 2017 by Nearholmer

[rue_d_etropal]

I think that if you were to study diesel shunter development, then you might ask questions. One cab makes sense, except to do it on many locos is Britain, the view in one direction is very poor. This is not a problem on US and continental ralways with a larger loading gauge. It would certainly be more difficult to introduce now with reduced manpower.

One of the small layouts I am planning will be dockside certainly inset track, and will include an open  level crossing with conduit trams(I have a photo to show it exists). On such an open area, visibility is essential, so driving from the front makes sense. It will be more  about moving complete trains, not shunting the odd wagon, although with the Bachmann chassis I could get it down to a very slow snail pace.

 

I have looked at possibility(well a certainty) of upscaling to 4mm/ft. No problem. I start all designs at 7mm/ft, then resize down. As for a chassis for 4mm/ft, not sure. Had hoped it might fit a Hornby/Rivarossi/Lima diesel chassis, but chassis is too long. Probably would fit various  motor bogies. Maybe another bigger American loco. Reason I would prefer one of these is their ultra slow speed running.

 

I am also thinking of smaller scales, a 3mm/ft one and a 2mm one as well as an N scale one.

Edited April 10, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[Nearholmer]

RdE

 

Apart from the BTH locos, the very first LMS experimental diesel loco, and some big (for the gauge) locos used underground by NCB, I can't think of a British internal combustioned engined shunting loco that didn't have a single cab, despite the penalty on visibility that this imposed with engines above about 300hp in earlier years. (Doubtless someone will know of a couple more examples)

 

Shunting with a cab at each end of the loco involves worse troubles: changing ends every couple of minutes, which isn't practical; or, leaning out a long way and over-reliance on hand-signals from the shunter.

 

K

[PhilJ W]

Motorising a 00 scale model would not be a problem. The bogie wheelbase is 7 feet, 28 mm in 00 scale which is a 'standard' size for many motor bogies. Also in a smaller scale I can see difficulties in installing a motor in the body and concealing it without compromising the interior details.

[rue_d_etropal]

"...  with other info should be enough for me."

"Done a basic design of the Ford loco based on info I have"

 

You only have to ask me nicely and I'll scan my 7mm dimensioned sketches for you!  David

David, I have only just noticed this message,please do.  I would be very grateful if you could indeed scan your dimensioned sketches for me. It was seeing the article in BRM that re-ignited my desire to build a model of this loco. Just a bit frustrating that  there was so little information online. I had been researching for a while, but put it to one side.

[rue_d_etropal]

Thanks to David I have modified my design. Mainly correct , but roof now better. I also noticed I had the roof back to front. Hope to get a test model ordered soon.

[ahardy]

I have only just seen this thread, sorry!

 

I work full time at the K&ESR and have been collecting some information on the FORD. I have some drawings somewhere along with scans of contemporary articles and historical photos. 

 

I will look at my notes and if I can I will make it available. I would be VERY interested in a 4mm scale version.

 

Andy

[ahardy]

Right chaps, having got to work I have looked out some of my notes I have on file.

 

Firstly are 5 drawings of unknown origin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now a few photos of the locomotive. Some of these having been shared on the IRS email group and other places.

 

 

 

 

 

Hopefully they may be of some interest to people. I also have scans of some contemporary articles about the locomotives, plus a brochure from W H Allen.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[PhilJ W]

Andy, would you be able to put all the information in a PDF file?

[rue_d_etropal]

Typical, drawings turn up after I have completed my model. Easy to download, no need to put in a pdf file.

Thanks anyway. I will compare them to model, which is based on dimensions David gave me , and the ones he used to build the model for Bedford club.

 

My model is in HO, but design can be done in virtually any scale, the big advntage of 3D pronting. Mine fits on a Bachmann GE70 chassis, almost glove like

These Bachmann models run superbly. I think it is one of the DCC onboard versions, and is ideal for shunting. Just a few details to finish off. Buffers got damaged(design mod required), but fitted some I had.

 

I need to check more, but on the whole,I seem to be OK. Would be interesting to know when those drawings were done. I based my design on being 8ft wide, I think, not sureexactly why. Also the exhaust seems to be bigger, but thought I had got measurements right. My own model is meant to be an additional new one, so could justify some differences, but will go through design bit by bit.

 

I possibly rushed a bit,as I wanted t get model. I will add more detail, now I am more certain about it. Always difficult with preserved locos, as you can neer be absolutely certain when changes might have been made.

Edited April 28, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[PhilJ W]

Right chaps, having got to work I have looked out some of my notes I have on file.

 

Firstly are 5 drawings of unknown origin.

 

Ford 1.jpg

 

Ford 2.jpg

 

Ford 3.jpg

 

Ford 4.jpg

 

Ford 5.jpg

 

Now a few photos of the locomotive. Some of these having been shared on the IRS email group and other places.

 

2.jpg

 

4.png

 

4.jpg

 

5.jpg

 

Hopefully they may be of some interest to people. I also have scans of some contemporary articles about the locomotives, plus a brochure from W H Allen.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

The drawings are of the locomotive as built and a few modifications took place when in service. The single roof mounted headlight replaced by two headlights and the change of buffers I mentioned before. There was also re-railing beams on the outer ends of the bogies that are not visible in the photos.

EDIT The re-railing beams are still there, hidden in the shadows.

Edited April 28, 2017 by PhilJ W

[Osgood]

The picture of the locomotive with slag ladles tipping is very interesting as it shows a well protected power unit (radiator visible) which presumably supplied electric, pneumatic or hydraulic power to tip the ladles?

[PhilJ W]

The picture of the locomotive with slag ladles tipping is very interesting as it shows a well protected power unit (radiator visible) which presumably supplied electric, pneumatic or hydraulic power to tip the ladles?

They were air operated, the three cylinders between the locomotive bogies were air reservoirs, described as 'dumping reservoirs' in the drawings above.

[rue_d_etropal]

I have now modified my design. Most small changes, the exhaust is now bigger so looks better. Buffers are stronger, but many would want to change them. Only costs pennies more to have them. Also upped it to 4mm scale. I plan to make these available over weekend. The HO one will take a Bachmann chassis, it is up to modellers what they use for bigger one. I may design some simple bogie sides, but they are easy enough to scratchbuild. Also the air cylinfders between the bogies.

Hopefully the design will resize down to 3mm/ft easily, not sure about handrails though. An N gauge version should be possible, but need to work on that. Some detail will be left off.

[Arthur]

The slag ladles are of 400 cubic ft. capacity and are to a design of the U.S.company, William H. Pollock. of Youngstown, Ohio. They were supplied for dumping either by steam or air, depending on the motive power in use, the Ford examples being air dumped. That little power car is supplying compressed air for the task. As the locomotives had air compressors and reservoirs, and were supplied with that task in mind, that asks the question why the need for separate power?

 

Possibly the locomotives had proved to have inadequate compressors to tip multiple ladles quickly or, and this was not unknown, to enable ladles to be tipped in the absence of a locomotive.

 

The ladles had been supplied by Pollock's UK agents, Ashmore, Benson, Pease and Co., of Stockton-on-Tees. ABP & Co. later made the ladles but those supplied in the 1930s might have been made by Pollock in Youngstown and shipped over.

 

ABP & Co. also built the Ford Dagenham blast furnace, again to US designs, in 1934. It was so successful that it led to ABP becoming the UK's leading blast furnace builder in the post war years.

 

As was traditional the furnace was given a female name, Josephine, after one of Henry Fords granddaughters.

 

.

 

.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Arthur

[sej]

Hi, I drew up a side and end elevation in 10mm/ft scale from the information kindly supplied to me by the Luton boys. I'll get some scans sorted if anyone wants a copy. I'm also about halfway through drawing up some etches for it in 7mm.

 

Cheers

Simon