4472 Flying Scotsman - I don't understand why she is so famous?

[bluebottle]

Quite so, just another A3. (A better candidate? How about Papyrus?)   My own opinion, with which you are free to disagree, is that the A3s were the most elegant and well proportioned of all the Pacifics and I too am glad that we still have one - albeit still in bits.....

 

Chaz

 

My personal favourite was "Brown Jack", having had the pleasure of seeing it in the Waverley station in pre smoke deflector days, its well-polished Brunswick green glowing in an atmosphere redolent of smoke and oily steam, and listening to the proud footplatemen listing its distinguished pedigree. My father later reminisced happily about roaring "Come on Steve!" with the rest of the racegoing crowd as Steve Donoghue rode the four-legged "Brown Jack" to yet another big win. What more appropriate name to give a magnificent locomotive than that of a magnificent animal?

[Bon Accord]

Quite so, just another A3. (A better candidate? How about Papyrus?)   My own opinion, with which you are free to disagree, is that the A3s were the most elegant and well proportioned of all the Pacifics and I too am glad that we still have one - albeit still in bits.....

 

Chaz

 

Quite so. Trafford International Railfreight Park, Mission Accomplished and the like aren't quite the same.

[EddieB]

Aside from all her personal distinctives and achievements, Flying Scotsman was an early example of the first successful class of British Pacifics - which in this country were the cream of express passenger locomotives.

 

Would the BRB really have allowed the whole of such a landmark design to have gone for scrap had it not been for the personal intervention of Alan Pegler?  If so, would Tornado have been an A3 instead?

[chaz]

 

Would the BRB really have allowed the whole of such a landmark design to have gone for scrap had it not been for the personal intervention of Alan Pegler?  If so, would Tornado have been an A3 instead?

 

I think they might well have done so. The obvious candidate for preservation amongst the A3s should have been the pioneer loco, Great Northern. How well it would have looked restored to A1 condition and painted in the superb GNR colours. However the rebuild of the loco by Thompson made that impossible. Pity.

 

However I don't think we should be too hard on the BRB, they did save a representative selection of fine locos when I am sure the accountants were raising their eyebrows and tut-tutting....

 

Chaz

[buckdancer]

Well it wasn't my granddad or dad but I did know someone who worked on her in Doncaster plant. 

IMHO most of the fame comes from many years of good PR after Pegler bought her because back in the late 50's early 60's many of us hanging around Doncaster station did not consider her anything special, just another A3.

 

But I'm glad she was preserved because we don't have any other examples of the class.

Well when I made my first trip to see the ECML from the West Midlands there were 3 locos we wanted to see as they were legendary amongst the Midlands spotters - Mallard, Flying Scotsman and to a lesser extent Silver Link.

Just another A3? Not to us folk.

[Coldgunner]

IIRC the BRB were trying to save a representative group. They preserved 4771 because of its cylinder design and I guess they must have thought that Mallard was representative of the ECML pacifics. If I could go back in time and save one A3, it would be 2750 Papyrus.

 

Maybe in the future the ability to source manufacturers for new components will be easy enough to justify a new build A3.

[chaz]

 

Maybe in the future the ability to source manufacturers for new components will be easy enough to justify a new build A3.

 

Well now, the Tornado team have shown the way. Given the expertise and the money any extinct loco class could be revived with a new build, but I am sure it's not a job to take on lightly. Given the moribund state of so many of the survivors maybe it would be better to concentrate the efforts on those. (What about repairing Green Arrow?)

 

Chaz

[Karhedron]

There are several new builds in progress with a Grange at Langollen and a 4700 coming along at Didcot.

 

I suspect such things will always be a "labour of love" rather than a commercial proposition though.

[PaulRhB]

Wasn't the initial fame as a result of the association with the train itself? Bit like Concorde, the ultimate way to travel. As Larry and others have said once it becomes famous then it tends to get used again and again perpetuating the fame. A good name helped that sticks in the mind.

Titanic's famous and when you get down to it for poor decisions of speed and design! Scotsman's current woes are down to trying too hard to extract every last penny whilst forgetting the effects of fatigue and just dealing with the obvious faults. The Vulcan is going to be retired soon for exactly the same reason as sorting out the hidden fatigue is possible but prohibitively expensive on the income it generates for its support group.

[The Stationmaster]

Wasn't the initial fame as a result of the association with the train itself? Bit like Concorde, the ultimate way to travel. As Larry and others have said once it becomes famous then it tends to get used again and again perpetuating the fame. A good name helped that sticks in the mind.

Titanic's famous and when you get down to it for poor decisions of speed and design! Scotsman's current woes are down to trying too hard to extract every last penny whilst forgetting the effects of fatigue and just dealing with the obvious faults. The Vulcan is going to be retired soon for exactly the same reason as sorting out the hidden fatigue is possible but prohibitively expensive on the income it generates for its support group.

I think you're absolutely right Paul - the name 'Flying Scotsman' was already well established in the public psyche because of the long established train of that name.  And while the LMS tried with the 'Coronation Scot' and the 'Princess Coronation' class pacifcs they never got at the sheer simplicity of the name 'Flying Scotsman'.

 

And a little aside - some years ago on a conducted visit around the NRM there in the Great Hall was 'Mallard' carrying a 'Flying Scotsman' headboard, and we were duly told by our host that large numbers of 'ordinary' visitors went away more than happy that they had 'seen the Flying Scotsman', that is how much or what it meant to many ordinary folk who would think you were talking some alien language if you started on about an A3 or A4 or whatever.  There's an awful lot in a name.

[coachmann]

Fame indeed......Back in 1991 when steam was in full throw down the North Wales line, me old dad asked me to settle an argument down the pub. Was it 'Royal Scotsman' or the 'Flying Scot'.....?     

Edited May 16, 2013 by coachmann

[Chris116]

There is one thing for certain. Building a new A3 in the same way as the A1 Steam Trust have Tornado would have been a hell of a lot cheaper and would have ended up with a much better loco than the one that the NRM are busy throwing money at.

[Coldgunner]

HIndsight is a wonderful thing. Also, when 4472 was purchased, the new build thing hadn't entirely been proven as effective.

[coachmann]

I think the LMS 'Austin Seven' could be just as famous if one were on the mainline steam roster.............Wow!   

[kevinlms]

Toured Australia for the bicentenary, did the parkes to broken hill non-stop. Longest ever non stop run.

I do seem to recall that FS wasn't the first choice of a locomotive to tour Australia for the Bi-Centenary of Australia. Memory tells me that the first choice was Mallard (being the fastest) and then a Stanier Pacific (Duchess of Hamilton, I think). The reason for the initial choice was that both these 2 were owned by the NRM and it was thought that was the most likely source. However the NRM declined & the then FS owners offered their locomotive. The rest was history & probably turned out to be the best choice.

 

FWIW, Flying Scotsman was famous long before it was preserved. Probably due to being named after the most famous train & its celebrated 10.00 departure. Not to mention the LNER publicity department as others have mentioned.

 

This poster to me, typifies the importance of this locomotive.

 

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10173153&itemw=4&itemf=0001&itemstep=351&itemx=418

 

Although reading the accompanying text indicates, that this was NOT so considered at the time. I'm surprised.

[John_Miles]

History is full of anomalies in terms of fame. It's not just Flying Scotsman. For example Brunel is lauded as a genius but if you look at his record, he made some appaling decisions I7 foot gauge, Atmospheric Railway, baulk road, etc) and lost huge amounts of money for the people he worked for. He was also an awful manager and so his contracts never went to plan (read Adrian Vaughan's books). He caused at least one person to commit suicide. There were other engineers around at the time who built railways on time and to budget who have been completely forgotten. Margaret Thatcher is far more famous than Clement Atlee and yet he achieved far more in terms of transforming society. People are just inconsistent and illogical and so we often focus on things which when examined closely are not particularly deserving of the attention.

[Colin_McLeod]

She is famous because a lot of people have heard good things about her.

 

Hurrah. I've got my first "Disagree" courtsey of new poster Aarron14xx. (see post No 4). 

 

Perhaps I am wrong when I say that a lot of people have heard good things about the Flying Scotsman but the definition of "Famous" is just that.

 

 

 

fa•mous (ˈfeɪ məs)

 

adj.

1. having a widespread reputation; renowned; celebrated.

2. first-rate; excellent.

[1350–1400; Middle English < Anglo-French < Latin fāmōsus. See fame, -ous]

fa′mous•ness, n.

syn: famous, celebrated, renowned, notorious refer to someone or something widely known. famous is the general word for a person or thing that receives wide public notice, usu. favorable: a famous lighthouse. celebrated refers to a famous person or thing that enjoys wide public praise or honor for merit, services, etc.: a celebrated poet. renowned usu. implies wider, greater, and more enduring fame and glory: a renowned hospital. notorious means widely known and discussed because of some bad or evil quality or action: a notorious criminal.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Colin_McLeod

[Ozexpatriate]

... many ordinary folk [who] would think you were talking some alien language if you started on about an A3 or A4 or whatever.

They would 80 years ago too!

 

If this mid-1930s article about the LNER is any indication, to their contemporaries, the A3s were known as "Super-Pacifics".

 

In this article from the same source about the Flying Scotsman (train) 4472 of course gets a big mention, as  a "Pacific-type".

[69843]

With all the comments about Papyrus, I remember on a DVD (Flying Scotsman Comes Home, I think) that even the Late Alan Pegler admited that if he was able to pick and choose, 2750 would have been it as it was his favorite when he was a lad, for being the fastest A3 of the lot (and she was an A3 from the beginning).

 

The other thing is, as has been mentioned, it's not just the locomotive itself. If, say, Brown Jack had been preserved and gone through exactly the same set of circumstances as 4472, this thread might be about 'why is "Brown Jack" so famous?'. It's not just the engine, but the people, the trips and, in all truth, the failures that have made her such a prominent locomotive in preservation history.

[chaz]

Are we herding cats or shovelling smoke?

[aaron14xx]

Hurrah. I've got my first "Disagree" courtsey of new poster Aarron14xx. (see post No 4). 

 

Perhaps I am wrong when I say that a lot of people have heard good things about the Flying Scotsman but the definition of "Famous" is just that.

 

So, people or locomotives are famous because people have heard only good things about them? Hmm.

 

So therefore, people like Adolf Hitler, Stalin etc are good people, because they are "famous"

 

That may be taking it to the extreme, but it relates to your "definition" well, that a lot of people hear good things about people and that makes them famous.

 

And BTW,

 

It's spelt "aaron14xx"

[69843]

So, people or locomotives are famous because people have heard only good things about them? Hmm.

 

So therefore, people like Adolf Hitler, Stalin etc are good people, because they are "famous"

 

That may be taking it to the extreme, but it relates to your "definition" well, that a lot of people hear good things about people and that makes them famous.

 

And BTW,

 

It's spelt "aaron14xx"

 

There is no point reviving a four month old thread to debate this point, but just to reclarify, here is the definition of famous, as pointed out by Colin on May 17th

 

 

fa•mous (?fe? m?s)

 

adj.

1. having a widespread reputation; renowned; celebrated.

2. first-rate; excellent.

[1350–1400; Middle English < Anglo-French < Latin f?m?sus. See fame, -ous]

fa?mous•ness, n.

syn: famous, celebrated, renowned, notorious refer to someone or something widely known. famous is the general word for a person or thing that receives wide public notice, usu. favorable: a famous lighthouse. celebrated refers to a famous person or thing that enjoys wide public praise or honor for merit, services, etc.: a celebrated poet. renowned usu. implies wider, greater, and more enduring fame and glory: a renowned hospital. notorious means widely known and discussed because of some bad or evil quality or action: a notorious criminal.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Each man/woman to his/her own. As with many things if you hold something in high regard due to it 's history etc, that is your opinion and who gives a jot what anyone else thinks!

 

XF

[Colin_McLeod]

And BTW,

 

It's spelt "aaron14xx"

Apologies for misspelling your name. I know how that feels as I often get mine misspelt (Not on RMweb though - they are an educated bunch)

[aaron14xx]

And did you really have to make such a big fuss about me disagreeing with your opinion? Seems childish to me in all honesty.