Arboretum Valley - Invasion of the Daleks

[ChrisN]

Jaz,

That equipment in the station looks like it is where there was a through line in steam days.  I may be wrong but it is wider than the usual 6ft.  A lot of catenaries near stations are where there used to be sidings. 

 

I find it quite sad as the railways are not what they used to be. 

[Kal]

Hi

All good information , some i already knew but useful anyway...But it was not what i meant to ask, so i will try and word it a little different if i can.

 

I know the protype measurements and if p4 had been Hornby's choice all those years ago , and if peco had then not complicated it by creating more compromise by setting streamline a 50mm track spacing, things would have been a simple translation.

 

On the existing parts of AV, i stuck, mostly to steamline 50mm space, however i messed up on the four lanes of kalborough, because at the time I did not know about the 10 ft, i am stuck with that for the time being as i will not rip it up until the rest is finished,

 

The one thing that was a pain, is that things like Dapol catanery are not spaced for streamline track....go figure.. Nor are skaledale bridges, Bachmann crossing, scale scenesheds, the list goes on.

 

So regardless of what the theory would say is correct, i was really trying to understand, have others found this a pain too, and if so how did they handle it.

 

I am thinking, 50mm and widen when i need too, bit like the real thing OR..... Set track spacing and thin when i come to complex junctions.

 

Before i started i was just wondering how others compromised on this.

 

As i say all good stuff and it is a good topic of conversation which is good to continue, but it is clear i did not ask the question properly, so sorry about that and if any one has any views on the refined question too, it would be useful.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Kal

[Anotheran]

Hi Kal,

 

My apologies, I guess I didn't quite follow what you were asking, but I get it now!

 

While I'm not speaking from any experience I would say, looking at the prototype examples that Jaz posted, and other views from Google maps etc, that the first of your options of starting narrow and widening at appropriate places would give the best look and feel.

 

Kind regards, Neil

Edited September 28, 2014 by Anotheran

[Kal]

No apology needed, I did not explain it well.

 

I am leaning that way too, that way most of what you see will be close track , and i see divergences on the ecml, so maybe the widening in places on AV can be expained the same way.

 

Anyone , vote for the opposite method?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[ChrisN]

Kal,

I would think that having streamline spacing and widening where necessary is the way to go.  It would look more prototypical.

 

Dapol use set track spacing as they are the old Airfix kits which were first made in the 60s so I am not sure streamline was around then.

[ess1uk]

Here we go.....Helpston crossing.jpg

somewhere i know about too well!

[Kal]

Hi

 

Raises the question which always confused me, why is it UP to London?   Somebody in Kent or Sussex must have made that decision.....  kind of counter intuitive for the rest of us though

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[Anotheran]

why is it UP to London?

 

While it's normally the case, it isn't always. The Midland Railway had it's headquarters in Derby, and Up on its lines were towards Derby (hence people being confused on the up.down on AndyP's Bitton plan!). Though the biggest companies were generally head-quartered in London, so Up was to London.

 

Of course, you could look at it another way... Due to the spin of the earth it's diameter is larger through the equator than it is through the poles (by some 43 km)... so (on average) if you travel towards the equator on the surface then you will be going up (as in further from the centre of the earth, not further above sea level as the oceans share the earth's oblateness). So on that basis Up should be towards London if you are north of London which means that southern railways got it wrong!

[ChrisN]

Hi

 

Raises the question which always confused me, why is it UP to London?   Somebody in Kent or Sussex must have made that decision.....  kind of counter intuitive for the rest of us though

 

Kal,

Does the phrase 'up to London' pre date railways?  I assume they felt it should be up as at the time London was the centre of empire.

 

It has come out on Andy P's thread 'Bitton' that the Midland lines that did not go to London had 'Up' going to Derby, the centre of the Midland Empire.  Do local trains around big cities take 'up' as the direction to the city?

[Kal]

Dunno, but in Lancashire, from whence i came it is:

Going down to that there London!

Why? because on any map I have ever seen, South is down, as is London.

The other major term in popular use is: Up North....

As the railways were invented up north, I would just have expected they would run from their origins.

More to the point why do we not just use , north , east west, south?

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[Kal]

 

http://flourish.org/upsidedownmap/

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[westerhamstation]

Hi Kal, Jaz, when I used to live in Kent we used to go up to Downe. all the best Adrian. 

[Kal]

Hi Kal, Jaz, when I used to live in Kent we used to go up to Downe. all the best Adrian. 

Nice one, but then Kent are always a bit Lewes with there terminology.

 

Saying that, I do notice similar issues Bacup in Lancashire. 

[Anotheran]

It's probably from there that the whole system evolved... Down House (in Downe, but spelled without the e) was the home of Charles Darwin 

[Anotheran]

For a long time the valleys lines in South Wales used up to go up the valley (to the mines), and down to go down the valley (to the ports). Different to pretty much everywhere else as up the valley was away from London, Newport, Cardiff... or anywhere of any size. If you're going the same way as the black water out of the spoil then you're going down bach! I don't know if it's still the case, but it's a bit of a shame if not as it's both logical and simple.

 

We've always been logical us Welsh... or is that simple?

[Kal]

Should that not be.... Llogoggoychical?

[Alister_G]

It's an interesting point you raise. Up has always been conflated with towards something, and Down with away, although there is no obvious corollary.

 

Take the case (although not as commonly used nowadays) of students at Universities - to be Up at Cambridge or Oxford was to be present during term time, and to go Down from either was to leave the university - whether by choice or, in less pleasant cases, to be Sent Down meaning to be expelled.

 

I had always understood that in Railway terms, Up was towards London, and Down away, and it wasn't until I started researching the Midland Railway that I discovered that in their case, Up was towards Derby, and Down was away from Derby.

 

As it happens, modelling Bakewell, it makes no difference, as it is north of both Derby and London, so the distinction had never occurred to me, but for Midland stations to the south of Derby, Up would be reversed from where one would expect.

[westerhamstation]

Here's another one, if you live in the East End of London you go up West (confused of Westerham)

[Kal]

Hmmm   you go up west to see all the beautiful buildings, .....   er.. wait a minute    , if they are finished why are they called buildings? Should they not be called Builts?

 bit like flats that are far from flat and apartments  that are all built together.

 

Such an odd language to start with, when people make there own conventions, like the railways and their ups and downs, it is no wonder we are all confused 

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[ess1uk]

so on the Midland Main Line from St Pancras to Sheffield THROUGH Derby, which way is UP?

[Kal]

Another confusing thing....

 

Who likes marmite?

 

For those that do not, how do you deal with that? Me.... I just don't buy it.

 

However, there seems to be another solution....

 

Join a forum and complain constantly how rubbish it is..

 

[jcredfer]

Hopefully   .....................

 

so on the Midland Main Line from St Pancras to Sheffield THROUGH Derby, which way is UP?

 

 

...............................            the Roof and the Sun   ..........

 

 

[Eerr  ........    unless it is night  ......      ......   but you would know that because it would be dark   ....    although it would probably be dark if you were the wrong way up   ...    so that might be a close call  .....     ]

[Kal]

J

 

I had to give you a funny because i could not find the

 

"Tie yourself in knots"

 

Icon

Edited September 29, 2014 by Kal

[MrB]

Hi

All good information , some i already knew but useful anyway...But it was not what i meant to ask, so i will try and word it a little different if i can.

I know the protype measurements and if p4 had been Hornby's choice all those years ago , and if peco had then not complicated it by creating more compromise by setting streamline a 50mm track spacing, things would have been a simple translation.

On the existing parts of AV, i stuck, mostly to steamline 50mm space, however i messed up on the four lanes of kalborough, because at the time I did not know about the 10 ft, i am stuck with that for the time being as i will not rip it up until the rest is finished,

The one thing that was a pain, is that things like Dapol catanery are not spaced for streamline track....go figure.. Nor are skaledale bridges, Bachmann crossing, scale scenesheds, the list goes on.

So regardless of what the theory would say is correct, i was really trying to understand, have others found this a pain too, and if so how did they handle it.

I am thinking, 50mm and widen when i need too, bit like the real thing OR..... Set track spacing and thin when i come to complex junctions.

Before i started i was just wondering how others compromised on this.

As i say all good stuff and it is a good topic of conversation which is good to continue, but it is clear i did not ask the question properly, so sorry about that and if any one has any views on the refined question too, it would be useful.

Kal,

 

As you say it's up to you. In the past i've done streamline spacing where possible and changed to set track for fixtures, fittings and set track curves.

 

All the best

 

Roy

[Jintyman]

Nice one, but then Kent are always a bit Lewes with there terminology.

 

Saying that, I do notice similar issues Bacup in Lancashire. 

Now I always thought Kent was only Medway between The Thames Eastury and the English Channel

 

Jinty ;-)