Freemo Extravaganza

[bxmoore]

"* If you want a large module, consider a coal loading facility like those found in the Wyoming coal basin.

 

* Super sized sized industry: auto-racks at a production plant of the US car manufacturers. The car parks are huge"

 

I'd respectfully suggest that the above two suggestions would not work well if used in the type of set-up that Martyn is suggesting takes place.  In either case, all the traffic would mostly be block trains of bespoke cars (either coal gons or auto racks) in and out, with little or no interaction with the rest of the railroad.  None of these cars can be realistically delivered to any other location other than that "industry".   As is also pointed out, you'd need big storage roads too.

 

Much better to have an industry (or several different ones) which can have one or two cars dropped off/switched etc by a local freight that is also working the rest of the railroad.  If it's a bigger module, then an industry like a paper mill can have different sorts of loads in and out (boxcars, tank cars, flats etc), delivered by passing freights.  Cars can then either be switched by the local itself, or by a switcher crew permanently allocated to the location.

 

"Super-sized" modules in may ways defeat the object of each person bringing along their own, manageable 12-16 feet, setting each module up relatively quickly, and playing trains.

 

My two-bobs' worth.

 

Brian

[Glorious NSE]

First up - I'm happy to design something that can use whatever modules get made, so don't let me dissuade you! 

 

So - if a couple of guys really want to get together and build (for instance) a coal loading loop module plus a power plant (or a staging yard) big enough/matched to handle the resulting train then I think that's great, we'll use it, and fun will be had.

 

Generally however I'm with Brian here, there is more 'bang for the buck' in building things that deal in carloads, not trainloads...

 

Consider in bang-for-the-buck terms arriving with a unit train and spending the next 30 minutes crawling it under the loader at a scale 2mph, or alternatively picking up 2 loads and spotting 3 empties at that small, modelleable truck loadout? How much real-estate and rolling stock do you need to produce each, versus the interest you can get out of it?

 

Ref the other things - auto loading/unloading ramps themselves can be surprisingly compact and are quite modelleable (search the threads on here, it's come up before I think) in design - the real things though tend to have a nearby yard holding the rest of a unit train waiting to be loaded/unloaded, and then a switcher swapping loaded/empty cuts until you've dealt with a trainload...you'd have a choice of doing compact/carload and losing the intense operation, or making it a fairly major project...

 

Intermodal, also problematic from a credibility point of view, there are small (relatively) intermodal yards out there, you'd have a choice of keeping it small, you could 'cheat' and treat it as carload traffic, or making it big enough to justify a block train to a staging yard?

 

There's other options for containers though, for instance Atlas's recent waste containers would be something that you could build a relatively small transload facility around, and they wouldn't look wrong working as carloads...

Fair point Brian, but there's nothing against splitting the unit-train out and dispatch individual cars to small(er) destinations on some modules. A bit like the real thing

 

Surely if it's going to lots of destinations, by definition it's not a unit train?

[long island jack]

Personally i not a lover of unit trains(but if that lights your lamp),to make them look right they have to have 50+ cars,not to mention the space needed, i prefer the carload type trains a loco +1 or 2 cars just looks right,also most people will have enough box cars etc to cover us for the weekend.

 

The idea is for a 1980's shortline cluster,which suggest short trains and hopefully a more intense operation.  

 

just my ten pence worth(but i'll go with the flow)

 

Ray

[roundhouse]

Fort Myers has a few loops but they can only hold six average sized freight cars plus a couple of locos so this really limits trains to storyline ... (edit) shortline types if any passing of trains is to be done on it.

[long island jack]

Ian

 

Is this a new type of working "storyline types"        (fat fingers)

[roundhouse]

Ian

 

Is this a new type of working "storyline types"        (fat fingers)

Once up on a time....

 

No, its me typing on a tablet screen, it then auto correcting and finally me not checking it properly!!

 

Ian

[bxmoore]

In respect of loops, one of the lessons we learned was that the loop has to be of a reasonable size to be of any use as a run-around. On our modules, trains are a maximum of 9-10 cars, with a maximum of two geep-sized locos and a caboose for more fun. That fits into a space of about 12-13 feet.  The attached picture shows a set of boards with a loop, but it only takes a loco and about four cars.  This means that a train any bigger than that won't be able to run around its train to deliver cars to at least one of the two sidings in either direction (the loop starts at the bottle of Evo-Stik and re-joins where the soldering iron is plugged into the extension lead), and the other comes off the main to the RH side from the switch in the foreground and has a stub-end.

 

Obviously, the DS or loco crew can arrange only to make trailing-switch movements when travelling WB, and bring back other cars when heading homeward EB to make opposite trailing moves to the other siding.  It all adds to the fun, but when the modules were originally built, they caused no end of problems when the switch sheet instructed the crew to switch BOTH sidings when using the loop.  On a train of more than five cars, it becomes impossible to deliver to the facing-point industry in either direction. The loop simply isn't long enough.

 

Lesson: loops that are to be used for running around trains for deliveries of cars have to accommodate the normal-sized train you will be running, without fouling the switch at either end.  They also provide lots of additional movements and fun.  There's no need for a module that has industries to have one, of course, but when you do want one, remember the above.

 

If you are building boards of 12-16 feet, it would always be a useful thing to have a loop somewhere, as they are of immense use, even if you don't use them for anything more than facilitating trains to pass. They can also be used to do a run-around move that could then deliver a car to the trailing point industry of the boards in the picture.

 

Brian

 

[roundhouse]

In respect of loops, one of the lessons we learned was that the loop has to be of a reasonable size to be of any use as a run-around. On our modules, trains are a maximum of 9-10 cars, with a maximum of two geep-sized locos and a caboose for more fun. That fits into a space of about 12-13 feet.  The attached picture shows a set of boards with a loop, but it only takes a loco and about four cars.  This means that a train any bigger than that won't be able to run around its train to deliver cars to at least one of the two sidings in either direction (the loop starts at the bottle of Evo-Stik and re-joins where the soldering iron is plugged into the extension lead), and the other comes off the main to the RH side from the switch in the foreground and has a stub-end.

 

Obviously, the DS or loco crew can arrange only to make trailing-switch movements when travelling WB, and bring back other cars when heading homeward EB to make opposite trailing moves to the other siding.  It all adds to the fun, but when the modules were originally built, they caused no end of problems when the switch sheet instructed the crew to switch BOTH sidings when using the loop.  On a train of more than five cars, it becomes impossible to deliver to the facing-point industry in either direction. The loop simply isn't long enough.

 

Lesson: loops that are to be used for running around trains for deliveries of cars have to accommodate the normal-sized train you will be running, without fouling the switch at either end.  They also provide lots of additional movements and fun.  There's no need for a module that has industries to have one, of course, but when you do want one, remember the above.

 

If you are building boards of 12-16 feet, it would always be a useful thing to have a loop somewhere, as they are of immense use, even if you don't use them for anything more than facilitating trains to pass. They can also be used to do a run-around move that could then deliver a car to the trailing point industry of the boards in the picture.

 

Brian

Thanks for that info. When I plan the adaptor boards I will try and fit in one loop long enough if possible.

 

ian

[long island jack]

.

 

Obviously, the DS or loco crew can arrange only to make trailing-switch movements when travelling WB, and bring back other cars when heading homeward EB to make opposite trailing moves to the other siding.  It all adds to the fun, but when the modules were originally built, they caused no end of problems when the switch sheet instructed the crew to switch BOTH sidings when using the loop.  On a train of more than five cars, it becomes impossible to deliver to the facing-point industry in either direction. The loop simply isn't long enough.

 

Brian

I agree you need loops longer than your longest train,but if the loops is to small couldn't the crew leave half the train on the main(if the mains long enough,and the trains blocked before hand) then switch in both direction,sure this would be possible and a load of fun!!!

 

Ray

[Northpoint]

I think thats a very good point about the extra 4' modules, it maybe be a idea for someone or two,  just make a few plain modules.

 

 

I'm already on it...

[bxmoore]

.

 

 

I agree you need loops longer than your longest train,but if the loops is to small couldn't the crew leave half the train on the main(if the mains long enough,and the trains blocked before hand) then switch in both direction,sure this would be possible and a load of fun!!!

 

Ray

In theory, yes, but there is rarely enough space between modules to do such a thing (thus the benefit of some "straight-through" single-track boards). 

 

Also, and more importantly, you will probably quickly p*ss off other crews who are having absolutely no fun at all watching you hog the main line and stopping all other traffic moving on that part of the railroad, even for five minutes.  Being "in the hole", especially when it can be avoided, invokes little pleasure on an operational model railroad.

 

Brian  

[Talltim]

Remember, a plain line module doesn't have to be straight

[Northpoint]

Remember, a plain line module doesn't have to be straight

 

Already on that as well!

[long island jack]

In theory, yes, but there is rarely enough space between modules to do such a thing (thus the benefit of some "straight-through" single-track boards). 

 

Also, and more importantly, you will probably quickly p*ss off other crews who are having absolutely no fun at all watching you hog the main line and stopping all other traffic moving on that part of the railroad, even for five minutes.  Being "in the hole", especially when it can be avoided, invokes little pleasure on an operational model railroad.

 

Brian  

Point taken,but what happens when your switching trailing spurs on single track modules,is that not just the same, your blocking the main(as seen in video),surely crews will understand that this will happen now and then and can't be avoided on single track branches.

 

If we are going to the trouble of having driver/conductors,switch list,despatchers etc, is this not part of the what we're trying to create  

 

Well done Nick we need 50' straights and curved  

 

Ray

[Glorious NSE]

As with all things, there is a balance (he says, putting down his copy of 'Zen and the art of model railways')

 

Some waiting is unavoidable, is prototypical, and I'd go as far as to say part of the experience. It's also something that you can't usually do on the layouts we tend to have over here, so may even have a bit of a novelty factor!

 

If switch moves on a 'main line' become too convoluted however then it moves towards the interminable...

 

It's down to us when putting it all together to firstly try and locate modules in the best place we can - intense switching to be somewhere that's not in the middle of a critical bit of main line for example - and when building a trainplan in Ops there's further things that can be done to try and keep things fluid (switch 'facing' industries on the return leg, not having every train switch in every 'town', and so on...)

 

Something that's really nice from my point of view so far is that nobody seems to be designing modules to be 'standalone switching puzzles' - I.E. intensively packed in spurs running in all sorts of odd directions, usually including kickbacks or diamonds and the like to make it more challenging.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with them in their correct context, but they do make for modules that you either have to shove up a branchline somewhere or ignore some of the industries on to get them to function properly as part of a bigger railway...

[bxmoore]

As with all things, there is a balance (he says, putting down his copy of 'Zen and the art of model railways')

 

Some waiting is unavoidable, is prototypical, and I'd go as far as to say part of the experience. It's also something that you can't usually do on the layouts we tend to have over here, so may even have a bit of a novelty factor!

 

If switch moves on a 'main line' become too convoluted however then it moves towards the interminable...

 

It's down to us when putting it all together to firstly try and locate modules in the best place we can - intense switching to be somewhere that's not in the middle of a critical bit of main line for example - and when building a trainplan in Ops there's further things that can be done to try and keep things fluid (switch 'facing' industries on the return leg, not having every train switch in every 'town', and so on...)

 

Something that's really nice from my point of view so far is that nobody seems to be designing modules to be 'standalone switching puzzles' - I.E. intensively packed in spurs running in all sorts of odd directions, usually including kickbacks or diamonds and the like to make it more challenging.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong with them in their correct context, but they do make for modules that you either have to shove up a branchline somewhere or ignore some of the industries on to get them to function properly as part of a bigger railway...

Absolutely.  One of our club members has a 16' module with a proper passing loop and four separate "industries": grain (4 spots), LPG 2 spots), Team Track (4 spots), car repair (4 spots) and a spare siding for overspill.  He prefers to operate it with his own switcher, rather than the train crew itself doing the moves.  It's big enough to give a good bit of self-contained work, it's another job on the RR, the resident switch loco keeps main-line trains arrival and departure very prompt, and because he's got a loop to use for shuffling the cars around, he doesn't have to bother the DS as much to ask permission to do moves on the main line. Sometimes the car delivery balance isn't right (JMRI tweaking required), and he sits around, twiddling his thumbs, but we don't want to give him too much either.

 

There's also an on-going debate whether the loop should be used for drop-off/pick-up of cars from passing freight trains (and NOT be under the control of the DS), or that the loop should also be DS-controlled to effect meets and be a specific passing point on the RR, with the resident switcher also having to seek permission to use it from the DS. Ther'e always going to be compromise, as Martyn says...

 

Anyway, I've attached two pictures of it in its basic form, prior to it being scenicked. The loop holds two geeps and 10-11 cars.

 

And, although there's potentially a lot of time-consuming work, the module is laid out to operate as smoothly as possible, just as in real life. As Martyn says, "switching puzzles" are NOT what you want in the middle of a RR that's to expidite the efficient passage of trains.

 

Brian

[long island jack]

Cheers Martyn

 

Most of us on here who are building module haven't done this before, so we don't now the pitfalls that you and the others have encountered,we are "flying in the dark",but i for one is looking forward to running it like the railroad does (or as near as dam),if this means you have to sit and wait for the local to finish switching then so be it.  

 

Anyways the drivers got to have a cuppa sometime!!  

 

Ray

[roundhouse]

Cheers Martyn

 

Most of us on here who are building module haven't done this before, so we don't now the pitfalls that you and the others have encountered,we are "flying in the dark",but i for one is looking forward to running it like the railroad does (or as near as dam),if this means you have to sit and wait for the local to finish switching then so be it.  

 

Anyways the drivers got to have a cuppa sometime!!  

 

Ray

I have a beer fridge I might bring along

[shortliner]

I thought the law says "12 hours between bottle and throttle - or is that aircraft?"

EDIT - DM beat me to it!

[roundhouse]

Beer fridge full of bottles of soft drinks... honest!!

[PaulRhB]

I've been watching with interest trying to decide if I can get away with another layout! Can't commit though until i can confirm time off work, yep the roster goes that far ahead.

I'd already thought about a switching one but following the Lance Mindheim bare bones approach sticking out from the main rather than a switching puzzle. If I was to have a L shape how far sideways from the main would be ok? I was thinking it could link into the mainline adjacent to a loop to provide additional industries without blocking up the loop for extended periods though it would require access via the main.

[Talltim]

Its OK to have a beer if you're watching the scenery from a comfy seat in the dome car tho?

[roundhouse]

Its OK to have a beer if you're watching the scenery from a comfy seat in the dome car tho?

 

Might have to make a mock up of part of a dome car then!!

[bxmoore]

Here's how far I've got, in respect of my own 16' of modules.  I've tried to learn a lot from looking at other club members' own modules:

 

• Keep things light
• Keep things relatively simple
• Always try to compromise if possible, as long as you still end up with something approaching what you hoped for. Otherwise, start again.
• Main line has PECO Code 83 #8 switches, and the others are #6, apart from one long curved RH switch.  There's more than enough space in 16' to use longer switches - it looks great too.
• Boards carried back-to-back in two sets of two.
• No DCC for switch control (expensive and with lots of potential for breakages and other problems)
• Each switch controlled by two SPDT switches, one recessed either side of the board opposite the switch location, so that they can be controlled from either side.  I hope to be using these for point motors:   http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/219998/Universal-Point-Control-Mechanism   They don't "thwack" like PECO motors do, but are cheap and apparently... cough... reliable.
• Provide a decent-sized passing siding, for use in either switching or as a passing loop.
• Legs will be self-contained, and fold down on hinges from underneath the boards. I really want to avoid carrying anything separate that I don't have to; separate legs take up a lot of space, and are a pain.  Even very lightweight legs can afford a lot of strength when the modules are erected and firmly joined up to themselves and adjoining boards. Only one board needs two sets of legs, and the other three can have one, and be attached piggy-back.

• 16' in length, using four 20x47" 2-inch-thick pink foam boards which will be surrounded by ply 3 inches wide and re-enforced at each corner (cut-outs already done as seen) with a 3-inch 15x15mm length of wood. I'll use No-Nails to stick the ply on, and re-enforce with screws at all ends.  Obviously I'm 2" wider than the spec, but there's no law against it.  The main line is set 9" from the lower edge, and 11" from the top edge.

• The depot will also be handling passenger trains.

My aim is to create a specific SP Californian feel, using an SP Type 23 depot, some proprietary buildings and a couple of scratch-built structures, all laid out in a flat, mostly sandy place (easy scenery) where the sun always shines.  A lot of the track will be "concreted in", especially the route along the top of the depot to the Fruit Packer.  I also want to use the modules for photo opportunities, both for 1954, and for the early eighties; looking at lots of prototypical pictures, little changed at so many SP depots during that time frame.

 

As can be seen from the stitched-together photo, a reasonably-sized train fits comfortably into the siding off the main line, and there's ample switching opportunities.  I don't envisage using a resident switcher. 

 

Well, that's the plan.  I'll hopefully start doing the woodwork (with much assistance from an experienced board-builder) in a few weeks' time.

 

Hopefully at least some of the above will be useful for others to muse upon, if even to think about and disagree.

 

Brian

[Glorious NSE]

Paul, that kind of configuration is fine, no restrictions, wed fit it in