SR / BR(S) EMU Route Numbers

[Ceptic]

Been working on these, this past few weeks.

(Google SketchUp can be a real pain in the brain, when it wants to be.... Questions have been asked... !!!)

 

Still some additions / alterations to be made (with a bit of luck)

 

See what you think.......* 

 

PNG Version.

 

PDF Version

AutoSave_AutoSave_AutoSave_AutoSave_BR Mk.pdf

 

I'll be back**......with early LBSC, SR, and early BR(S) EMU, and BR(S) Loco alphabetical head-codes.....If all goes to plan** 

 

** My ol' Pappy used to say "Never make plans, Son"

 

*The small print

Conditions of  Use.

May be downloaded on an amateur basis, but not for commercial use.

 

Regards.

[griffgriff]

I feel impertinent to ask but can we have some dots? 

[4630]

Great work and will be very useful.

 

If you don't already have one and need access to a full size BR (S) loco headcode blind let me know. I have one tucked away somewhere.

 

Regards

[Xerces Fobe2]

Thanks Ceptic very helpful

 

XF

[Southernboy]

Great work Ceptic - I'll look forward to your LBSCR / SR versions. Will you be considering LSWR as well?

[talisman56]

What are the orange blanks? I can't remember those being in the 'small size' roller blind set...

 

The small 'slit' above the numbers was also a roller-blind which could display all-black, one white 'dot' (centrally), two white 'dots' (one centred above each number) and all-white. What they were used for I could not decipher.

[Clive Mortimore]

What are the orange blanks? I can't remember those being in the 'small size' roller blind set...

 

The small 'slit' above the numbers was also a roller-blind which could display all-black, one white 'dot' (centrally), two white 'dots' (one centred above each number) and all-white. What they were used for I could not decipher.

Hi Tailsman

 

The dots and lines above and below the numbers had something to do with the type of traction/type of train, and or ECS workings or combination of the three. I am not able to get to my SR headcode reference at the moment.

[Ceptic]

What are the orange blanks? I can't remember those being in the 'small size' roller blind set...

 

The small 'slit' above the numbers was also a roller-blind which could display all-black, one white 'dot' (centrally), two white 'dots' (one centred above each number) and all-white. What they were used for I could not decipher.

 

Hi all.

 

 Thanks for your comments and appreciation.

 

The 'orange' blanks are intended to represent certain blinds which had a day-glo / fluorescent 'red' blank. I can remember these, although they didn't crop up very often.

 I was reminded of them by my son, who may have access to an example, hopefully, to check the colour and take a photo.  

 

 

 

I feel impertinent to ask but can we have some dots? 

 

No need to feel impertinent, dear chap,... course you can.

 

Great work Ceptic - I'll look forward to your LBSCR / SR versions. Will you be considering LSWR as well?

 

 Dots (and Dashes) are intended, and are due to be added., as are the LBSCR  /  LSWR letters and numerals, and the BR(S) lettering.

 

In fact, I was hoping to include them in this first post, but, (I know a workman shouldn't blame his tools) I'm finding this Google SketchUP very temperamental. Even working in 2D, it's got a tendency to freeze /  fragment  / break up or unable to fill with colour,... makes simple things hard work. Possibly this file has got too big ?, or my graphics card isn't up to it ?.

Hence my grouping together what is finished, and posting....quick !

 

Cheers All.

[Gwiwer]

There has never been an "orange blank".  Those seen in that shade were faded reds. 

 

The standard headcode roller blind fitted to EMU stock ran  0 1 2 3 4 black red white 5 6 7 8 9

 

Locomotives were required to display letters at times when used on freight and inter-regional workings so their blinds were rather longer and included most letters (not I O or W IIRC)

 

It was possible to display various dots, short and long bars over the headcode which had meanings specific to the route being operated.  For example any train on the South Eastern Division not calling at London Bridge would display two short bars.  Use of these was abandoned some years before the general decline in the use of headcodes region-wide with the advent of more modern train description equipment.

 

The earlier stencil plates also used bars which were fitted into the narrow top apertue in the carrier frame often occupied by a black blank.  Back in the days of letter headcodes these bars, and whether the letter was upright or inverted, were all-important.

[Guest maxthemapman]

How are you doing the curves? The outlines for these are really odd, with lots and lots of control points. The fewer control points you can use to get the shape the better.

 

If you are using a PC, try Inkscape, which is free

[Ceptic]

Dots (and spots) before the eyes. This needs a bit of tidying up (The 'S' and 'P' are slightly corrupted.)

 

PNG

 

PDF

AutoSave_AutoSave_AutoSave_AutoSave_BR Mk.pdf

[Gwiwer]

For those unfamiliar with the subject or the need to have dots or bars over the code there's a good (though not exhaustive) listing here http://www.semgonline.com/headcodes/eheadcodes.html

 

The specific meaning of those dots / bars isn't generally apparent but when compared with codes not using them the difference is usually revealed.  For example the SR code I and the variant known as "Bar I" back in letter days these indicated Victoria - Coulsdon North or Tattenham Corner respectively.

 

The apparently simple headcode V was also used as "Bar V", "Dot V", "Double-dot V", "Inverted V", "Inverted bar V", "Inverted dot V" and "Inverted double-dot V".  

 

Is it any wonder they started using numbers?  

[Ceptic]

There has never been an "orange blank".  Those seen in that shade were faded reds. 

 

The standard headcode roller blind fitted to EMU stock ran  0 1 2 3 4 black red white 5 6 7 8 9

 

Locomotives were required to display letters at times when used on freight and inter-regional workings so their blinds were rather longer and included most letters (not I O or W IIRC)

 

It was possible to display various dots, short and long bars over the headcode which had meanings specific to the route being operated.  For example any train on the South Eastern Division not calling at London Bridge would display two short bars.  Use of these was abandoned some years before the general decline in the use of headcodes region-wide with the advent of more modern train description equipment.

 

The earlier stencil plates also used bars which were fitted into the narrow top apertue in the carrier frame often occupied by a black blank.  Back in the days of letter headcodes these bars, and whether the letter was upright or inverted, were all-important.

 

Hi Gwiwer.

 

Re - the 'Orange' blank

I agree, the official term was 'Red', but, even so, the colour did vary.and I can definitely remember some being a very bright Red/Orange.

To confirm I wasn't dreaming, I had a rummage through my library.

In just one book, Bruce Oliver's "British Railway Southern Region Electrics in Colour" there are seven photographs showing units (CEPs, VEPs,  BIGs and CIGS), all displaying a similar colour.  In one particular picture, although the unit is in shadow, the colour is very bright, in fact, fluorescent. Other pictures show two different units, each with one 'Red' blind + one 'Orange'.  

[Gwiwer]

I agree entirely with the comments above.

 

The fact remains that the red blank - when used in pairs - indicated the end of a train and as such should have always been red.  Most were most of the time.  My understanding is that at some time the manufacturer and / or the production process changed.  Thinner plastic was used than before (and the earliest ones were linen) and possibly a different printing process.  This resulted in those blinds fading in daylight and showing a day-glow orange which was recorded in many photos but was nonetheless the "red" blank on the blind.

 

Some blinds of this era also curled in at the edges allowing light to leak out which made it harder to discern whether or not the display was, in fact, "double red" or something else.  Red dye also transferred itself onto the white blanks of these rolls giving them a pink hue when illuminated.  More than one train has been stopped for examination by a vigilant signaller uncertain whether he was looking at a double red blank or not.

[Ceptic]

How are you doing the curves? The outlines for these are really odd, with lots and lots of control points. The fewer control points you can use to get the shape the better.

 

If you are using a PC, try Inkscape, which is free

Hi Max.

 

 I must admit to still being a novice with this CAD business  and doing things on a shoe-string here, via the PC.

 

I see there is a hiccup with the '6' stencil plate in the pdf file, yet the '9' looks ok, one being an inverted / reversed copy of the other.

 

In what way, what format and which numerals do you see the curves as looking odd ?. They appear to quite be smooth on this screen, even when in HD or zooming in.

My procedure is to have two end-points of lines, select the 'arc' tool, type in the number of segments / facets (control points ?), the more of these, the smoother the curve. (or so I thought). Is this right ? or am I doing something wrong ?. The same goes for circles, to which you can attach lines at any point. 

 

Thanks for the Inkscape link. I'll give it a go, as this SketchUp keeps 'clogging up'.  Maybe, it's just me ?

 

Cheers.

[Guest maxthemapman]

OK, well, I went under the bonet to check the vectors, I've never tried Google Sketchup, and I was interested to see how it worked.

 

I've attached two images that show the control handles on the pdf files. First mine

 

 

[Notice the lack of symmetry on some of the control handles, the elemets of the 8 are not perfect circles]

 

[Are you happy about how vector graphics and Bezier curves work, or would you like a more detailed explanation]

 

Then yours

 

 

Looks to me as though Google Sketchup doesn't encode Bezier curves correctly, it just turns them into straight line approximations. No one will notice on an 00 gauge model, but technically, that is horrible. Bin sketchup and never use it again.

 

You've done a really nice first draft, but you have to be really careful with this sort of thing. If you think that nit-picking rivet-counting railway modellers are tedious, wait until you get to the world of lettering and typography.

 

For example, I can fully believe that the Southern Railway simply inverted and reversed a 6 stencil to get a 9, but for actual sign-printed lettering, don't take it or granted that a 6 can be flipped into a 9 (or a b into a d etc. etc.)

 

In the next clip, I filpped the 9, turned it red and superimposed it onto the 6. Yours on the left. Mine on the right, I worked my curves into fitting the numbers on the scan individually for each number.

 

 

See, 6 and 9 are not quite the same. Again, no one is going to notice, but it's spotting these things and taking account of them that really makes the difference. As I said previously (I think) elements of letters that appear circular rarely are, and likewise things that appear symmetrical. A really nice example is Futura, which is a classic German monostroke geometric modernist font. Except that when you take a close look at the letters, it isn't. The designer wanted the letter to appear simple and regular, but knew that if he designed them that way, optical illusions to do with the way the brain interprets shapes would make then look wrong. He therefore 'mis-designed' the letters to take account of that. It's an incredibly clever piece of design.

[Ceptic]

73 109 'Battle of Britain' in SWT "Thunderbird" livery, Bournemouth Depot Open Day 1998, showing one Red panel at one end, and one Orange, at the other.

[Ceptic]

Great work and will be very useful.

 

If you don't already have one and need access to a full size BR (S) loco headcode blind let me know. I have one tucked away somewhere.

 

Regards

 

Many thanks 4630

 

 Hang fire for the mo'.

I admit, I am a little short of the details regarding the size / font of the BR(S) loco alphabetical characters.

 

My Son has offered to photo and measure said characters, whilst on duty....Can't say where, can't say when.....'nuf said.

 

I'll get back to you.

 

Cheers.

[Ceptic]

OK, well, I went under the bonet to check the vectors, I've never tried Google Sketchup, and I was interested to see how it worked.

 

I've attached two images that show the control handles on the pdf files. First mine

 

maxthemapman.png

 

[Notice the lack of symmetry on some of the control handles, the elemets of the 8 are not perfect circles]

 

[Are you happy about how vector graphics and Bezier curves work, or would you like a more detailed explanation]

 

Then yours

 

ceptic.png

 

Looks to me as though Google Sketchup doesn't encode Bezier curves correctly, it just turns them into straight line approximations. No one will notice on an 00 gauge model, but technically, that is horrible. Bin sketchup and never use it again.

 

You've done a really nice first draft, but you have to be really careful with this sort of thing. If you think that nit-picking rivet-counting railway modellers are tedious, wait until you get to the world of lettering and typography.

 

For example, I can fully believe that the Southern Railway simply inverted and reversed a 6 stencil to get a 9, but for actual sign-printed lettering, don't take it or granted that a 6 can be flipped into a 9 (or a b into a d etc. etc.)

 

In the next clip, I filpped the 9, turned it red and superimposed it onto the 6. Yours on the left. Mine on the right, I worked my curves into fitting the numbers on the scan individually for each number.

 

Screen shot 2013-06-24 at 13.07.01.png

 

See, 6 and 9 are not quite the same. Again, no one is going to notice, but it's spotting these things and taking account of them that really makes the difference. As I said previously (I think) elements of letters that appear circular rarely are, and likewise things that appear symmetrical. A really nice example is Futura, which is a classic German monostroke geometric modernist font. Except that when you take a close look at the letters, it isn't. The designer wanted the letter to appear simple and regular, but knew that if he designed them that way, optical illusions to do with the way the brain interprets shapes would make then look wrong. He therefore 'mis-designed' the letters to take account of that. It's an incredibly clever piece of design.

 

 

 Many thanks Max, ... especially for the Inkscape resource, although this could, for me, involve a new learning curve.....I'll give it a go (this may take some time)

At the moment, I'm going to persevere with SketchUp.

 

 Google SketchUp is, primarily, a 3D architectural programme. Many, if not all, of the 3D buildings you see on Google Earth are drawn and placed upon by contributors using Google's facilities / free programmes. (apologies for sounding biased)

  SketchUp also offers within, a 2D, parallel projection drawing system, used here, and which I'm still trying to get used to !.

 

Regarding the curves, I can now see where the difference is. As you point out, Sketchup's curves are made up of many short, straight lines / control points. Even drawn 3D spheres, cones, frustums, tubes, etc., are made up using straight lines / flat faces, which are familiar to me , being an ex - Sheet Metal Worker / Plater.

You may have also noticed that I've used a slightly broader thickness to the widths than the prototype measurements. Hopefully, this will compensate for reduction in size when scaling down. (That small roller-blind 1 / I looks to be needing fattening, when printed in OO)

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

[eastwestdivide]

...I admit, I am a little short of the details regarding the size / font of the BR(S) loco alphabetical characters.

 

My Son has offered to photo and measure said characters, whilst on duty....Can't say where, can't say when.....'nuf said.

...

Likewise, I can post plenty of photos (from the 80s) if needed, but by the sound of it, the real things should do the trick.

[eastwestdivide]

OK, one not-so-random selection, showing letters A-K (there was no I), cropped but at the same resolution as the original scans. All from about 1981-85.

 

The B and D have noticeable serifs, which might be intentional, to help distinguish them from 8 and 0 at a distance.

 

0E was on an Orient Express working, while 0D with the dots and bar was empty china clay slurry tanks from Sittingbourne on a large logo 73

 

[Gwiwer]

G is also serifed so that it is clearly not mistaken for C.  There was never an I on the alphabetic section.   

[Ceptic]

Apologies for the delay in replying.

 

It turns out the cunning plan has back fired,....with both barrels.

 

Firstly, the loco chosen for the photo survey has had it's alphabetical blinds removed... numerals only 

Second barrel.....I transferred the amended alphabet head-code section of the file (It was included in the cluttered 4-CIG drawing) to Sketchup 2013....  Bad move, as it turns out.

Although the new version self-corrected any errors and is better than the version 8, I mis-read the trial period....It's 8 hours, and not 180 ....Doh      

 

The upshot being , I'm gonna have to redraw the amendments back onto a new file, using version 8, as they're not transferable in reverse.

 

Hoping all this nonsense makes sense ?

 

Many thanks for your photos eastwestdivide.

A specific appeal though.  Have you, or 4630 got any more of the 'G' and 'K' ?. Particularly in close-up ?, as I'm unsure of the 'G's serif and the 'K's 'Spikes' .

 

There was/is a later numeral font used, appears to be post privatisation or when blinds needed replacing. This looks to be closer to 'Gill Sans' but not quite the same.

 

Cheers All.

Baldrick

[Gwiwer]

Post 21 shows the K to have a "three-way" meeting of the elements mid-way on the vertical.  Also the G has a horizontal serif which extends beyond both sides of the short vertical element and that, in turn extends to terminate at the same level as the outer curve of the G

[eastwestdivide]

Couple more G and K, which might help. Not sure if they're any better than what we have. In particular, this K is a bit "sunken" into the recess. I tend to put plenty of landscape in my train pics, which means the locos aren't as close as you'd hope for this purpose.

 

The G has what you could almost describe as a smaller uppercase T as the termination of the lower curve - the horizontal crossbar extends both sides of the vertical line.