For those interested in old cars.

[MJI]

I think older ecus with simpler chips, lead solder, and wider tracks will be more reliable.

 

 

[MJI]

57 minutes ago, alastairq said:

Not all older infection systems use electronics[ECUs]...Anything with Bosch K Jetronic fuel injection might not have an ECU.  Bosch L Jetronic was, I believe, ECU controlled {???}

I came across K jetronic injection in my Volvo 740 estate, F plater...On the whole a very reliable car, let down a bit by lack of reliability within non-Volvo engine components... The fuel system was essentially ''mechanically' operated....[needed to have the manifold cleaned out every year, however]...

Volvo 2 litre engines seemed to be 'the best of the bunch'....In my hands, could out-handle any BMW that cared to stay with me through local bends...

 

Probably the latest diesels that didn't have common rail technology, or ECUs of any description could be found in the long missed Daihatsu 4Trak range...These went up to the turn of the century....[this century, not the last century!!]..Good for 250,000 miles without overhaul, good also for 100 bhp, out of 2.8 litres, low revving [when compared to common rail engines]...A favoured replacement diesel engine for Land Rover owners.... 

 

In my shed, I have the two 'black boxes' I took out of my old MG Maestro 2 litre...If they are any use to other enthusiasts, then feel free to 'PM' me?

 

 

Come across jetronic and motronic.

 

Jetronic was not that good, but motronic was a reliable  electronic system.

[Oldddudders]

Then there was Kugelfischer.

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Then there was Kugelfischer.

And, apparently, there's an old bloke in America who knows how to fix that....

 

I fear many post-carburettor "future classics" will end up as static exhibits when something critical fails, simply because the parts run out and the know-how disappears along with a few specialist repairers who were trained on the technology when it was current.

 

John

Edited September 27, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[russ p]

3 hours ago, alastairq said:

Not all older infection systems use electronics[ECUs]...Anything with Bosch K Jetronic fuel injection might not have an ECU.  Bosch L Jetronic was, I believe, ECU controlled {???}

I came across K jetronic injection in my Volvo 740 estate, F plater...On the whole a very reliable car, let down a bit by lack of reliability within non-Volvo engine components... The fuel system was essentially ''mechanically' operated....[needed to have the manifold cleaned out every year, however]...

Volvo 2 litre engines seemed to be 'the best of the bunch'....In my hands, could out-handle any BMW that cared to stay with me through local bends...

 

Probably the latest diesels that didn't have common rail technology, or ECUs of any description could be found in the long missed Daihatsu 4Trak range...These went up to the turn of the century....[this century, not the last century!!]..Good for 250,000 miles without overhaul, good also for 100 bhp, out of 2.8 litres, low revving [when compared to common rail engines]...A favoured replacement diesel engine for Land Rover owners.... 

 

In my shed, I have the two 'black boxes' I took out of my old MG Maestro 2 litre...If they are any use to other enthusiasts, then feel free to 'PM' me?

 

 

 

Mine is the lucas system which is a version of L jetronic with a hot wire airflow meter rather than electromechanical flap system 

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

And, apparently, there's an old bloke in America who knows how to fix that....

 

I fear many post-carburettor "future classics" will end up as static exhibits when something critical fails, simply because the parts run out and the know-how disappears along with a few specialist repairers who were trained on the technology when it was current.

 

John

 

Sounds like the Spica fuel injection system. Pretty much unknown in Europe (think it was only used on the Alfa Montreal), but used on a lot of Alfas in the USA in the 1970s

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

Sounds like the Spica fuel injection system. Pretty much unknown in Europe (think it was only used on the Alfa Montreal), but used on a lot of Alfas in the USA in the 1970s

 

All the best

 

Katy

Kugelfischer mechanical injection was used by BMW on the 2002. Not sure if any other maker used it.

 

An example featured in (I think) an instalment of Wheeler Dealers, and IIRC, overhauling it involved "breaking into" at least one component that was intended to be sealed-for-life.

 

John

[MJI]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

And, apparently, there's an old bloke in America who knows how to fix that....

 

I fear many post-carburettor "future classics" will end up as static exhibits when something critical fails, simply because the parts run out and the know-how disappears along with a few specialist repairers who were trained on the technology when it was current.

 

John

 

Semi and simple electronic - repairable

Early ECUs - emulatable or Megasquirt

 

More recent will be

Static, or if the right people do something, emulation.

 

But things like LCD displays will be likely to endgame stuff.

 

 

 

[alastairq]

Having a old car with an unfixable, or unreliable, early injection system may seem like a bin job, but I know at least one business that has had good use of their services in order to 'fix' the running of cars with 'unfixable ' injection....

Those being, Bogg Bros of East Lutton  not a million miles away from me]

Bogg Bros hand made, and sold, manifolds to replace kernackered injection manifolds on engines , with bike carb set-ups.

They had an in-house rolling road in order to set things up...and have done very good business for years now.

Bike carbs have several things in their favour, as fuel systems for cars.....One being, reliability [when compared to many more usual carb set-ups...and obviously more reliable than a duff ECU or fuel injection system]

Another is the ease of tuning to suit particular needs.

 

I used to run a rear engined Skoda Rapid [136 engine]...which as standard came with a very good  [& improvement] carb similar to a twin choke Weber... {Jikov carb]

The car was set up for trialling, so needed decent bottom end torque....rather than 6000 rpm screamies.

The carbs came from a Honda Fireblade, as these had smaller chokes than the usual Yam R1 set ups [more used for racing and rallying]

As I recall, they were 35 quid for the set.  A long Pipercross foam filter covered all the bell mouths [which the carbs came with...unlike the likes of weber and SU?}

I cobbled up electronic ignition [from the Felicia]...

 

The advantage of the bike carb setup was the almost impossible chance of flooding the engine should my right foot start bouncing too much.

 

In any event, struggling with, for example, a busted Lucas system....seems like unnecessary pain, when a nice bike carb setup would do the business?

 

Besides, a 4 pack of bike carbs do look rather good..

They can be had as twins, triples, sixes, eights, and are oh so easy to fit up with throttle mechs.

 

I once marveled at Bogg Bros Dad [David Bogg, still going strong, a lot older than me too]..who fabricated a 4 x SU carb setup to suit a fairly local Railton Special, which used a straight eight Hudson engine...

[Special as in, two seats, gear lever, steering wheel and a bit of a windscreen...]

The linkage, including chokes, was marvel of understanding....

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

I have a question - why was the Buick V8 (turned into Rover V8) such a good engine for the UK car market when the Americans threw it to one side?

[Kickstart]

45 minutes ago, alastairq said:

The carbs came from a Honda Fireblade, as these had smaller chokes than the usual Yam R1 set ups [more used for racing and rallying]

As I recall, they were 35 quid for the set.  A long Pipercross foam filter covered all the bell mouths [which the carbs came with...unlike the likes of weber and SU?}

 

 

 

Prices of 2nd hand bike carbs have rocketed over the last few years. Modern fuels are a nightmare for bike carbs (small jets blocking easily from the remnants of the fuel), so not sure if that is why (ie, people buying a 2nd set as an initial attempt at fixing the problem). Added to which a lot of bikes use seals made of nitrile rubber which is not suitable with ethanol (hence having to source seal kits in viton).

 

39 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I have a question - why was the Buick V8 (turned into Rover V8) such a good engine for the UK car market when the Americans threw it to one side?

 

Presume light weight and for the UK 3.5L was large, while for the USA it was small.

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Rugd1022]

30 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

Prices of 2nd hand bike carbs have rocketed over the last few years. Modern fuels are a nightmare for bike carbs (small jets blocking easily from the remnants of the fuel), so not sure if that is why (ie, people buying a 2nd set as an initial attempt at fixing the problem). Added to which a lot of bikes use seals made of nitrile rubber which is not suitable with ethanol (hence having to source seal kits in viton).

 

 

Presume light weight and for the UK 3.5L was large, while for the USA it was small.

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

Rover MD William Martin-Hurst spotted the Buick V8 block on the floor of the workshop during a meeting over there in 1964 there and very quickly realised that it would fit into the engine bay of the P5 and P6 models, he asked for it to be shipped over to Solihull and within a few weeks it had been fitted into a P6 test mule. It was due to be launched in the P6 shell first but for some reason the 3.5 litre P5B Saloon and Coupe were launched first, in September '67.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Rugd1022

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I have a question - why was the Buick V8 (turned into Rover V8) such a good engine for the UK car market when the Americans threw it to one side?

I heard that to speed up production Buick used to diecast the cylinder block. They then found that the pressure used for die casting used to move the cylinder liners around when the block was cast which meant that the whole cylinder block was scrap. Rover sand casted the cylinder blocks which eliminated the problem. Rover were not unduly worried at the lower production rate from using sand casting as the production rate was more than adequate for their requirements and even produced a surplus that went into such cars as the MGBV8 and even LDV vans. And also supplied to other makers such as Morgan.

[jcredfer]

3 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Rover MD William Martin-Hurst spotted the Buick V8 block on the floor of the workshop during a meeting over there in 1964 there and very quickly realised that it would fit into the engine bay of the P5 and P6 models, he asked for it to be shipped over to Solihull and within a few weeks it had been fitted into a P6 test mule. It was due to be launched in the P6 shell first but for some reason the 3.5 litre P5B Saloon and Coupe were launched first, in September '67.

 

It also turned out to be lighter than the Rover 2000, engine - win win.

 

[MJI]

5 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I have a question - why was the Buick V8 (turned into Rover V8) such a good engine for the UK car market when the Americans threw it to one side?

 

A bit small for usa also they tended to not use antifreeze so corroded

[Oldddudders]

In our theatre car park this afternoon.

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, jcredfer said:

 

It also turned out to be lighter than the Rover 2000, engine - win win.

 

Years ago, a member of our local motor club fitted a Rover V8 into his HB Viva GT, allegedly over a weekend!

 

I'd guess it was also no heavier than the Vauxhall slant four as I don't think he changed much other than the engine, gearbox, prop shaft and radiator (plus mounts etc.).  

 

John

[jcredfer]

13 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In our theatre car park this afternoon.

 

 

The owner seems to want to keep the entire authenticity, as the Tax Disc is still displayed in the holder, on the windscreen.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

The owner seems to want to keep the entire authenticity, as the Tax Disc is still displayed in the holder, on the windscreen.

 

 

He also has a Triumph 2.5, he tells me....

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

The owner seems to want to keep the entire authenticity, as the Tax Disc is still displayed in the holder, on the windscreen.

 

But it's probably a repro one. Our old Jazz still has the original dealer disc as it was bought about a year before you stopped needing them.

[MJI]

13 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In our theatre car park this afternoon.

 

 

Sort of car I would have got if I was 20 or so years older, when newish and 2nd 3rd hand, and not classics

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

Sort of car I would have got if I was 20 or so years older, when newish and 2nd 3rd hand, and not classics

The owner is 70+, I think. He mentioned that it is manual, one of only about 17k, the vast majority being automatic. 

[Kickstart]

41 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

But it's probably a repro one. Our old Jazz still has the original dealer disc as it was bought about a year before you stopped needing them.

 

I have left the tax disk on most of the bikes that had them

 

All the best

 

Katy

[craneman]

On 27/09/2023 at 11:40, alastairq said:

Has anybody noticed, how incredibly low current  auction values for pre-WW2 commonplace cars are?

 

It seems, nobody really wants anything more mundane, pre-WW2?

[Whilst there always will be a healthy market for pre-WW2 Alvises, Bentleys, and other more noticeable models....}

 

I'm thinking of the more mundane makes, such as Austin 10s, 8s, Singers, etc?

 

I'm tempted to point out the obvious, namely that a car which was cheap and not very good then is now much the same except 80+ years older. I see nothing odd at all about low valuations!

 

If someone is interested in the cars that were affordable in that era it does at least mean that they are similarly affordable now, and you can enjoy the weekend tinkering experience that they required even then.

 

[alastairq]

19 minutes ago, craneman said:

I'm tempted to point out the obvious, namely that a car which was cheap and not very good then is now much the same except 80+ years older. I see nothing odd at all about low valuations!

 

Trouble is, when they were 'new', although they were cheap [competition from others?] they were also darned good [for their day!]

Similarly placed [marketwise] cars of the 50s and 60s , of similar good condition, seem to fetch better prices.

The price and market when new bears little relationship to values on the old car market today.

[A reminder, one can get a megabux Bentley today, for less than the price of a second hand Focus]..

 

The pre-WW2 market seems to have deteriorated as the likely enthusiasts start hitting 80 and 90 years old, methinks?

Also, given the depressed values, pre-WW2 is a darned good place for a young, proper, enthusiast to start?

Or, do 'impressions' and 'street cred'' matter more to folk these days?