Pre Grouping general discussion

[Lacathedrale]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

But the thrust of the current discussion is that it is better to have kits and RTR models of wagons of this period than not! Colour is a secondary consideration - repainting a RTR model wagon is a good deal less challenging than repainting a carriage or locomotive model.

Absolutely, but I would not pay £33 for a wagon that I then had to repaint :)

 

Re: the Cooper-Craft wagons, is it just 1004 which is suitable? I see quite a few 1001 and 1005's knocking around but no 1004's...

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Re: the Cooper-Craft wagons, is it just 1004 which is suitable? I see quite a few 1001 and 1005's knocking around but no 1004's...

 

1004 is nominally for the 200 diagram O5 wagons built as Lot 374 of 1902 but can be used to represent the 24,200 4-plank wagons built 1887-1902, though only the last lots of these may have had DC brakes - the kit includes parts for conventional brakes. Those built from somewhere around Lot 179 c. 1897 had oil axleboxes from new but those built over the previous decade had grease axleboxes. (Look out on my wagon-building topic for one of these coming up shortly.)

 

1001 is for diagram O4 as built with sheet rail. 2,706 were built 1901-1904. 1005 represents the same wagons following removal of the sheet rail in the years after the Great War.

 

I have a cunning plan in mind to use either of those kits with the top plank cut off and diagonal straps scraped off as the basis of a model of a sheeted 4-plank wagon, but haven't any of the kits to hand at the moment.

 

You might find the attached list useful; based mostly on GWR Goods Wagons, 3rd edition,  but including some corrections and additions from other sources for 1/2 plank opens and outside-framed wood vans.

  

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

There are no wounds.

 

Blood is red, you see. But I agree, at present there is insufficient data to reach a firm conclusion, so it has to be a question of what one thinks is the balance of probability. 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 17/06/2022 at 06:01, Compound2632 said:

Whichever choice the modeller makes, the key is to be consistent and not mix red and grey versions of the same lettering style.

I have one or two Coopercraft 4-plank wagons and a Ratio iron Mink that I plan to do in red with GWR on the bottom right corner, even though I have some of these in grey. Reason: indecision! Plus I think the period of changeover from red to grey occurred during that timeframe, so a few red wagons for my Edwardian group.

[CKPR]

Hope it's OK to post this here - if anyone is looking for an unmade Ratio MR 2-4-0 kit, there is one for sale for £45 in Hereford Model Centre

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Hope it's OK to post this here - if anyone is looking for an unmade Ratio MR 2-4-0 kit, there is one for sale for £45 in Hereford Model Centre

 

I've got one, that's been more-or-less unmade for 40 years...

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've got one, that's been more-or-less unmade for 40 years...

Unmade, or unmakeable? ;)

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Unmade, or unmakeable? ;)

 

Not yet entirely despaired of...

 

I did have a stab at it when i first got it, and even had the chassis with the whitemetal (?) wheels jerking along. 

[41516]

On 18/06/2022 at 12:32, Compound2632 said:

I have a cunning plan in mind to use either of those kits with the top plank cut off and diagonal straps scraped off as the basis of a model of a sheeted 4-plank wagon, but haven't any of the kits to hand at the moment.

 

None in the stash, or buried so deep in the stash as requiring substantial effort to retrive?

 

I've been reorganising* some of the build up 'pre loved'  Coopercraft kits I've acquired in job lots over the years into one place and I'd have some suitable doners for experimental surgery (and sheeting) that wouldn't be worth the effort tidying up otherwise if you'd like one?

 

*(Can anyone tell me what I'm going to do with 4 provender wagons and 9 V5 vans?!?)

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

None in the stash, or buried so deep in the stash as requiring substantial effort to retrive?

 

I don't think so.

 

11 minutes ago, 41516 said:

I've been reorganising* some of the build up 'pre loved'  Coopercraft kits I've acquired in job lots over the years into one place and I'd have some suitable doners for experimental surgery (and sheeting) that wouldn't be worth the effort tidying up otherwise if you'd like one?

 

I could be tempted.

 

12 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Can anyone tell me what I'm going to do with 4 provender wagons

 

Build a model of the Didcot provender store?

[wagonman]

On 18/06/2022 at 08:15, Edwardian said:

 

There are no wounds. We do not know the answer, so no one should be prescriptive or insist on their point of view. I advocate simply the desirability of keeping in mind that we do not know the answer. Modellers must make individual choices, but must respect the different choices that are equally legitimate.

 

I cannot see the difficulty of applying grey on new-built cast plate wagons.

 

Mikkel's 'hybrid' livery is based on the idea that the Mink in quo was not repainted after the removal of the cast GWR plate. He is quite correct that the photograph of the prototype appears to show this. If, therefore, you choose to believe the cast-plate livery in this instance was red, you get a transitional livery with the 25" G W on a red wagon.

 

If, on the other hand, you choose to believe that the cast-plate livery in this instance was grey, there is a hybrid, because it still features 1904 25" initials with a cast number plate, but the livery has remained grey. 

 

Given the choices I have made, I would model that same wagon in grey.  Both options appear equally valid, however, based on the available evidence.

 

My other choice is to have red under frames on red wagons. Again, there is no evidence to favour decisively this approach or the alternatives to it. 

 

 

 

 

While I accept your arguments in principle I find it hard to believe that wagons were taken into works simply to have their cast plates removed without a repaint at the same time – ie a full service. In support of this I can cite various wagons in grey with 25" lettering but the number still on a cast plate. We can be reasonably certain by now that the large letters were only applied to grey wagons. 

 

On the point of under frame colour, the GWR has since 1904 at least always painted the whole wagon in grey – there is no reason to think this was a radical change from the previous style so red wagons should have red under frames – for all that black looks better.

 

The above is speaking as one who has a shelf-full of pre-1904 wagons resplendent in, er, grey. In my defence it was done a long time ago before the consensus moved towards red. Is there a statute of limitations here?

 

In the absence of a smoking gun, or at least a fully attested Minute, we have to go with the balance of probability in these things while allowing the odd anomaly.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, wagonman said:

The above is speaking as one who has a shelf-full of pre-1904 wagons resplendent in, er, grey. In my defence it was done a long time ago before the consensus moved towards red. Is there a statute of limitations here?

 

In the absence of a smoking gun, or at least a fully attested Minute, we have to go with the balance of probability in these things while allowing the odd anomaly.

 

I have to say that having read up on the available information and gone for red to 1904 on what seems to me the balance of probability, I'm pleased with that outcome as it provides a pleasing contrast to my Midland and LNWR wagons in various shades of grey!

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

While I accept your arguments in principle I find it hard to believe that wagons were taken into works simply to have their cast plates removed without a repaint at the same time – ie a full service. In support of this I can cite various wagons in grey with 25" lettering but the number still on a cast plate. We can be reasonably certain by now that the large letters were only applied to grey wagons. 

 

I suspect we are in fact agreeing. Mikkel based his model on a wagon that clearly:

 

(a) Retains the cast plate running number, with the 25" G W applied; and,

 

(b) has the cast plate GWR initials removed, showing a darker, less faded, patch beneath, indicating that it was not repainted.

 

 

What the photograph cannot tell us is what colour the wagon is. It might have been red, not repainted grey with the change of letter style from 1904. There is some tension here with the main justification for the continuation of red to the 1904 livery change. One might, indeed, find it hard to believe that a red wagon would be taken into the works to have its cast initial removed and 25" letters added without repainting it to the colour that conformed to that lettering change.  ,

 

On the other hand, equally it could be that it was already grey prior to the 1904 change to large painted initials, and the GW was content, therefore, to leave it in a faded grey.

 

I feel the latter is more likely, so I interpret the photograph as evidence of grey applied sometime prior to the 1904 livery change. 

 

That is based entirely on what I consider more likely, an assessment at least 90% subjective because, as I hope is clear, on the question of colour, the photograph can be interpreted in different ways, quite legitimately. 

 

 

1 hour ago, wagonman said:

 

On the point of under frame colour, the GWR has since 1904 at least always painted the whole wagon in grey – there is no reason to think this was a radical change from the previous style so red wagons should have red under frames – for all that black looks better.

 

The above is speaking as one who has a shelf-full of pre-1904 wagons resplendent in, er, grey. In my defence it was done a long time ago before the consensus moved towards red. Is there a statute of limitations here?

 

In the absence of a smoking gun, or at least a fully attested Minute, we have to go with the balance of probability in these things while allowing the odd anomaly.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to say that having read up on the available information and gone for red to 1904 on what seems to me the balance of probability, I'm pleased with that outcome as it provides a pleasing contrast to my Midland and LNWR wagons in various shades of grey!

 

I don't find it helps to talk about the balance of probabilities. The more modern view is that red lasted to 1904, but when you drill down into the evidence, this conclusion is no better supported than the previous consensus that grey was introduced at some point in the, probably late, 1890s. 

 

The change to cast plate is as good a candidate as the change to 25", assuming you believe a colour change is more likely to accompany a lettering change than not.

 

I have tried to be honest about the evidence and not to make claims I cannot justify. I think it is a question of preference based upon what one feels is likeliest. To say the evidence tends to favour one option over another is a stretch in my view.

 

There is, then, no need to be defensive about one's preference because literally no one can say it's wrong. Either way.

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Edwardian
Picture

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

There is, then, no need to be defensive about one's preference because literally no one can say it's wrong. Either way.

 

I don't disagree; I wasn't intending to be defensive, possibly rather the other way! it's the balance of probabilities as weighed in my mind and others will reach a different conclusion based on the same evidence, since the evidence is inconclusive. At least on the RTR front folk have a choice of iron minks in either livery, though neither manufacturer has dared to offer both liveries!

 

I think @Mikkel would confirm that his model of No. 11258 is an experiment, not an assertion of dogma.

[wagonman]

I would like the colour change to have coincided with the introduction of cast plates – it is as plausible as any other date in the absence of any clincher. I will leave my 4mm models as they are as I don't have the heart to change them all, but in 7mm I get around the problem by moving my time-frame forwards to the mid '90s and painting everything red. Hang on though, shouldn't the Toad be grey?

 

It does surprise me that even after various historians from MacDermot through Slinn, Atkins, and Hyde to Miss Prism (I assume) have crawled through the company's Minute Books etc that no one has found the definitive answer about the change of livery. It must be recorded somewhere, oder?

Edited June 21, 2022 by wagonman

[Edwardian]

One dodge is to model only wagons built before the cast-plate era, when more likely to be red. 

 

I thought about that for CA because, frankly, I suspect a single red GW 4-plank turning up in Norfolk every so often during 1905 would be enough.

 

However, I like GW models and if I want to have stock for the GW in the early 1900s, I have to take a view. 

[wagonman]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

One dodge is to model only wagons built before the cast-plate era, when more likely to be red. 

 

I thought about that for CA because, frankly, I suspect a single red GW 4-plank turning up in Norfolk every so often during 1905 would be enough.

 

 

I suspect that before the common user agreements of WW1 vintage, GWR wagons – in whatever livery – would have been vanishingly rare visitors to Norfolk...

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, wagonman said:

It must be recorded somewhere, oder?

 

But isn't there nearly as much uncertainty over the livery changes for GW carriages and locomotives in the Churchward period? 

 

If there was no additional expenditure, requiring authorisation, there's no need for the change to be minuted. 

[Regularity]

Also, unless there was a particularly strong desire to promote a new colour, old stocks would be used up first, with new paint applied to new builds or full overhauls, and it would take a number of years to get through everything. (Setting aside those rogue wagons we know to have existed!)

[Compound2632]

Venturing out of the pre-grouping period, in 1936 there was a general change of wagon lettering from large company initials to small lettering to a common layout at the left-hand end; this was presumably by agreement (maybe through meetings at the Railway Clearing House) so is probably recorded in the minute books. At the same time, the LMS changed from grey to bauxite; is that recorded in official sources?

[wagonman]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But isn't there nearly as much uncertainty over the livery changes for GW carriages and locomotives in the Churchward period? 

 

If there was no additional expenditure, requiring authorisation, there's no need for the change to be minuted. 

 

What you say is true, but it must have been discussed somewhere even if only in the C&W Committee. It must have been decided by someone, somewhere, and communicated to the people who needed to know by something more concrete than telepathy! 

 

My understanding is that the confusion over carriage liveries is one of interpretation... I emphasise that I have not done any research in this field – I have always been looking for something else – but realise the possibility that records have been lost or destroyed.

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, wagonman said:

What you say is true, but it must have been discussed somewhere even if only in the C&W Committee. It must have been decided by someone, somewhere, and communicated to the people who needed to know by something more concrete than telepathy! 

 

Looking at TNA RAIL 250 series, there are agenda books for the Locomotive Committee but I see nothing for a C&W Committee - did the Great western have such a thing? i suspect that the Midland was unusual in having a separate committee. 

[wagonman]

42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking at TNA RAIL 250 series, there are agenda books for the Locomotive Committee but I see nothing for a C&W Committee - did the Great western have such a thing? i suspect that the Midland was unusual in having a separate committee. 

 

I have no idea if they had a separate committee – I plucked that one out of thin air – but these matters must have been discussed somewhere lower down the food chain than the Board Room, such is the structure of such organisations. Has anyone studied the Loco Committee records? Russ?

 

Apropos the WNR, and for that matter the Cwmtowy Mineral, inventing your own railway does solve a lot of problems.

[Mikkel]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think @Mikkel would confirm that his model of No. 11258 is an experiment, not an assertion of dogma.

 

Absolutely, it was not intended to suggest that there was an actual transition livery as such. Just maybe a few freaks. Or not.

[billbedford]

I thought that this might be the best place for this question:

 

Apropo the recent "interesting" weather, when was the first record of track buckling due to heat, in the UK?