Plum & Spilt Milk

[Steve Williams]

The title is the name of the restaurant at the recently re-furbished Great Northern hotel adjacent to Kings Cross. Now I always associate that livery with the LNWR. Were there any carriages / dining cars in that livery ever running on the Great Northern Railway? 

Edited August 23, 2013 by Steve Williams

[jwealleans]

At least one set was painted that colour in 1948 before final decisions on liveries were taken.  Where the set ran, or where they ended up - I think they were dispersed into general traffic - I don't know.  I only have Brian Haresnape's book as a reference.

[PhilJ W]

I always thought it was a very attractive livery, pity it was not adopted.

[chrisf]

Two experimental liveries for main line stock were evaluated in 1948 across a wide range of routes.  The 1.0 pm Kings Cross - Edinburgh and 1.45 pm return were the services on the East Coast main line.  The plum and spilt milk set alternated with one in a scheme of chocolate and cream which was not quite the same as that used by the GWR.  How long the services lasted after the end of the 1948 summer timetable and the minor details of which vehicles were thus bedecked are Good Questions to which the Railway Observer appears not to have the answers.

 

By the way, I had to look this up, having been less than a year old when it happened.

 

Chris

[chrisf]

Oh, and before someone asks - plum and spilt milk was, as Steve Williams points out, pretty much the old LNWR livery.  It was emphatically not the same as crimson/carmine and cream, aka blood and custard, adopted in 1949.

 

Chris

Edited August 24, 2013 by chrisf

[Steve Williams]

Well at least it looks like there may be some historic justification for the restaurant title. My wife and son can certainly recommend it. Thanks for the responses.

[Oldddudders]

Well at least it looks like there may be some historic justification for the restaurant title.

ISTR about 30 years ago they refurbished the bar there and called it "Potter's". This was before anyone had heard of Harry of that ilk or Platform 9+3/4, but a very great number of patrons had heard of Potters Bar!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Spilt or split? I am (for once) not being pedantic: I have seen reference to both and don't know which is right.

[Steve Williams]

Spilt or split? I am (for once) not being pedantic: I have seen reference to both and don't know which is right.

 

I would definitely opt for 'spilt', unless, of course, it was fully skimmed, in which case it should be 'Plum and coloured water'.

[robertcwp]

This may be of interest:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/1948_liveries_28-9-11.pdf

[10800]

Thanks Robert, you learn something every day! I'd always thought it was spilt milk without really questioning it, probably because the phrase was in common use as in "don't cry over ...", and I'd never heard of split milk before.

 

(Just checked a couple of books - Jenkinson refers to 'spilt' in Big Four in Colour, whilst Haresnape/Boocock cleverly go for 'off-white'; but spilt/split would be an editor's and proof-reader's nightmare).

Edited August 24, 2013 by 10800

[Steve Williams]

This may be of interest:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/1948_liveries_28-9-11.pdf

 

Good Heavens! So my reference above to skimmed milk was more accurate than I realised!

[robertcwp]

I read somewhere that "spilt milk" was used as a derogatory term for the old LNWR colour by ex-Midland Railway men in LMS days.

[96701]

I would definitely opt for 'spilt', unless, of course, it was fully skimmed, in which case it should be 'Plum and coloured water'.

I'm definitely going for split.

[Steve Williams]

I'm definitely going for split.

I think opinion is likely to be split! :-)

[96701]

I think opinion is likely to be split! :-)

Just so long as blood isn't spilled.

Edited August 24, 2013 by 96701

[stovepipe]

It's definitely split milk for me ..... though not on my breakfast cereal under any circumstances.....

 

In a related (crimson?) vein, has anyone else noticed how 'Off his own bat' has become 'Off his own back' in recent times?

Edited August 24, 2013 by stovepipe

[chrisf]

One point in favour of "spilt" is that this is how it was described in a BR document, as Robert has shown despite deciding to use "split" himself.  Mind you, BR not only described the 1949 shade of red as "crimson" but defined it by reference to British Standard 381c540 which was called "crimson". This did not stop others describing it as "crimson lake", which it patently was not, or "carmine" which many favour.  Some members of the Royal Corps of Train Spotters used "strawberry" but they must have had some very ripe strawberries.

 

I don't suppose anyone knows whether the shade of off-white with just a tinge of blue used by the LNWR and experimentally revived by BR conformed to a British Standard?

 

Chris

[robertcwp]

One point in favour of "spilt" is that this is how it was described in a BR document, as Robert has shown despite deciding to use "split" himself.  Mind you, BR not only described the 1949 shade of red as "crimson" but defined it by reference to British Standard 381c540 which was called "crimson". This did not stop others describing it as "crimson lake", which it patently was not, or "carmine" which many favour.  Some members of the Royal Corps of Train Spotters used "strawberry" but they must have had some very ripe strawberries.

 

I don't suppose anyone knows whether the shade of off-white with just a tinge of blue used by the LNWR and experimentally revived by BR conformed to a British Standard?

 

Chris

Unfortunately I have never seen a copy of the original 1948 announcement on experimental liveries.  The contemporary journals were divided on the issue of split v spilt with Railway Observer going one way and Trains Illustrated the other.  Perhaps the real question is how did R A Riddles refer to the livery at the time?  As an ex-LNWR man, he might have been behind it.  He was the instigator of the BR lined black mixed traffic livery (basically the old LNWR livery).

[Joseph_Pestell]

This may be of interest:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32711444/Articles/1948_liveries_28-9-11.pdf

This is a truly amazing forum. Someone always knows the answer and has documentation to back it up.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I tend to favour "split" over "spilt". But that is because most representations of LNW livery that I have seen (e.g. models by Jack Nelson) have a slightly bluish tinge to the off-white which is consistent with skimmed milk.

 

Of course, back in the day, milk was not skimmed for people to have lower-cholesterol breakfasts. It was because the cream was needed for butter which we also eat less of these days.

[talisman56]

ISTR that the Southern region also at this time tried a (pale) green and spilt milk livery, which the wags coined 'gooseberry and cream'...

[10800]

Not heard that one - they did have a pale green Lord Nelson to go with a train of plum/split milk coaches (as the LMR had a Patriot in the same livery) which looked horrible IMO.

[SamTom]

I've always wanted to have a Plum and Split Milk carriage put in at least an appearance on my still im-permanent way. I've finally decided to do something about it. Research (years ago, which led to a copy of Backtrack which I've misplaced) provided a pic (b/w, sadly) of a rake of new Thompsons on show at - iirc - Addison Road / Olympia; but was otherwise, despite my best efforts, unproductive.

 

I run early BR (SR). I know that SR painted at least one corridor set (Maunsell? I thought newbuilt Bulleid... both?) in this livery. May I therefore ask the following?

 

1. Can anyone specify the lining that was used with this livery? My best guess was that it was gold and black, to the dimensions later used with crimson and cream: but I've heard a report that there was some red there, too.

 

2. Was there a plum band below the cantrail?

 

3. Can anyone suggest which set(s) were so liveried?

 

Absent better information, I'll run a Thomson liveried coach on an inter-regioal.

 

It quite surprises me that, while the big two in our hobby will happily ring all sorts of livery changes on the engines they produce, they r remain very conservative when it comes to carriages. Surely, a nice rake of P&SM, on appropriate carriages, would sell a treat.

 

I assume that this gap may be because H & B have as much problem as I researching this.

 

Or is it, as I've always felt, that the broader range of our hobby doesn't much care about what coaches they run so long as they're pulled by a pretty steamer?

 

A beautifully liveried coach is every bit a stunning as a similar engine!

[stovepipe]

I run early BR (SR). I know that SR painted at least one corridor set (Maunsell? I thought newbuilt Bulleid... both?) in this livery. May I therefore ask the following?

 

1. Can anyone specify the lining that was used with this livery? My best guess was that it was gold and black, to the dimensions later used with crimson and cream: but I've heard a report that there was some red there, too.

 

2. Was there a plum band below the cantrail?

 

3. Can anyone suggest which set(s) were so liveried?

 

It quite surprises me that, while the big two in our hobby will happily ring all sorts of livery changes on the engines they produce, they r remain very conservative when it comes to carriages. Surely, a nice rake of P&SM, on appropriate carriages, would sell a treat.

 

I assume that this gap may be because H & B have as much problem as I researching this.

 

A beautifully liveried coach is every bit a stunning as a similar engine!

 

There were Plum and Split Milk sets on the LMR, LNER and SR using mainly Period III, Thompson/Gresley, and Bulleid/Maunsell stock respectively. There was also a set on the WR but I don't know what coach types were so painted. Of the known coach types there was no Plum band below the cant rail - the Split Milk went all the way up. The SR stock painted into P&SM was sets 299 and 788. There were also 3 Maunsell coaches painted FK 7224 and 1200 and 1254 (both TK). I can't definitively answer the question about lining as photos are very scarce. Colourail do have one photo of a Lord Nelson in experimental green leaving Eastleigh with set 788 - the lining looks it might be gold. One of the early issues of Railway Backtrack had an article on the experimental liveries, and Yahoo BR Coaching Stock group has some more details if needed.

 

I think the Southern coaches in particular would make a very nice set for Bachmann to produce - but their Bulleid coaches probably need an upgrade first!