Colin parks Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 Hello folks, I'm here at your disposal... anytime! Very nice modelling Howard, and of course Colin (in advance of the developing SUB). All the best Simon Hi Simon, See, I said you were about! The BIL war is breaking out over in the layout topic! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 A pic showing the body skirt reinforcing strips on preserved unit 4732. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 A pic showing the body skirt reinforcing strips on preserved unit 4732. ScannedImage-5 (2).jpg Thanks for the image Frank. The reinforcing strips are quite broad aren't they? Nice detail shot of that part of the chassis too. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 A few more u/frame pics, of dubious quality.(Eastleigh Works open days '88 & '93) All the best. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 on the subject of repair strips - ISTR that certain SUB's had reinforcing strips extending from the upper corners of the slam door frame upwards to the "rain-strip" on the roof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) A few more u/frame pics, of dubious quality.(Eastleigh Works open days '88 & '93) DMBS 12795 (2).jpg TS 10239 (3).jpg TSO 12354 (4).jpg TSO 12354.jpg DMBS 12796 (5).jpg DMBS 12796 (6).jpg End view of MBSO 12796 (7).jpg All the best. Thanks for the latest photos Frank. I hadn't noticed it before, but 4732 has an 'Eastern Section' 9' 0" w.b. motor bogie on motor coach 12795, as witnessed by the cranked guard irons (the Central section type motor bogies fitted to 4 SUBs being 8' 9" and with straight guard irons of course). I had read somewhere that unit 4732 was composed of vehicles from three different SUB units, 4732 being selected for preservation as it still had a compartmented trailer coach (due to an oversight by BR, according to David Brown) when withdrawn. The photos of the trailer coach chassis will be helpful - 4732 appears to have trailers with the longer design of trussing. I still do not have a clue which type to make for my model. It is the most prominent part of a 4 SUB trailer underframe it would be good to get it right. All the best, Colin Edited September 3, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Howard, Colin and all watchers of this thread. Colin, I hope you don't mind me answering a PM from HAB (Howard) re 4Sub drawings, in which he asked if I had any with full size dimensions. I think the answer may be of interest to others. I have the odd drawing but nothing which is fully dimensioned and really not much use. However, are you aware of the drawings in the 'Bulleid Coaches in 4mm Scale' by Model Railway Constructor. It has full dimensions which I believe to be accurate. It was Edited by S W Stevens-Stratten. As he is a good friend, I could ask him if I could reproduce a copy of the coach end with dimensions. Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 on the subject of repair strips - ISTR that certain SUB's had reinforcing strips extending from the upper corners of the slam door frame upwards to the "rain-strip" on the roof. Hi Southernman46, I have seen photos of vehicles with the repairs you describe. There is a coach in the background of a picture on p. 7 in 'A Southern Electric Album' by Michael Welch. It could be a tricky thing to reproduce in 4mm scale! There seem to have been various body repairs on 4 SUBs over the years, including the use of body filler around the windows too. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 Howard, Colin and all watchers of this thread. Colin, I hope you don't mind me answering a PM from HAB (Howard) re 4Sub drawings, in which he asked if I had any with full size dimensions. I think the answer may be of interest to others. I have the odd drawing but nothing which is fully dimensioned and really not much use. However, are you aware of the drawings in the 'Bulleid Coaches in 4mm Scale' by Model Railway Constructor. It has full dimensions which I believe to be accurate. It was Edited by S W Stevens-Stratten. As he is a good friend, I could ask him if I could reproduce a copy of the coach end with dimensions. Dave Hi Dave, That would be most interesting. I have one old copy of the MRC with Bulleid coach drawings in it - somewhere! The basic dimension for the curve of the coach side has been stated as 22' 0" radius. Having already formed the roofs for the 4 SUB model, I hope I am not in for any surprises about the roof profile! You really should be working with a major manufacturer as an advisor on SR EMUs. Indeed, there is one company in desperate need of some good advice! (I can pm the name of the person you should speak to if you are interested.) All the best, Colin Parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 You really should be working with a major manufacturer as an advisor on SR EMUs. Indeed, there is one company in desperate need of some good advice! (I can pm the name of the person you should speak to if you are interested.) All the best, Colin Parks By all means Colin. I don't have every piece of info but a combination of more than one adviser could give them the help they need. Go for it. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 The photos of the trailer coach chassis will be helpful - 4732 appears to have trailers with the longer design of trussing. I still do not have a clue which type to make for my model. It is the most prominent part of a 4 SUB trailer underframe it would be good to get it right. All the best, Colin Colin. The MRC Bulleid Plans book shows the tweo differing trussing lengths on the 4Sub drawings but needs a bit more investigation. I'm leaning towards the shorter ones being from the old units whose u/f's being used for the new Subs. Dave. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Colin. The MRC Bulleid Plans book shows the tweo differing trussing lengths on the 4Sub drawings but needs a bit more investigation. I'm leaning towards the shorter ones being from the old units whose u/f's being used for the new Subs. Dave. I remember the question of the different trussing lengths / depths cropping up in Colin's previous builds. Making an educated guess, I would suggest that the different trussing on the motor coaches (longer Queen-posts, more closely spaced) vs. trailers was to compensate for the heavier equipment carried and the longer w/b motor bogies. All the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 I remember the question of the different trussing lengths / depths cropping up in Colin's previous builds. Making an educated guess, I would suggest that the different trussing on the motor coaches (longer Queen-posts, more closely spaced) vs. trailers was to compensate for the heavier equipment carried and the longer w/b motor bogies. All the best. Hi Frank, You could be right re. the trussing. Having looked again at the photos by Dave in post #26, the first four pictures show each vehicle of a unit in succession. The first trailer coach pictured (second photo)has close-spaced trusses while the second trailer coach(third photo) has the wider version. I just can't work it out. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 I think the answer to the truss question has been found. Looking at 4 SUB 4680's details in 'The 4 SUB Story' and referring to more information in David Brown's Southern Electric' vol. I, the following can be said of the unit's trailer coaches: The first coach is TSO 8960, which was built old a chassis reclaimed from TC 9505 ex- Unit 1415, dating from 1925. It has the 'short spaced' trusses. The second trailer coach is TS 10304 built on a new chassis. Hopefully, this would mean that trailers built on new chassis post-1938, including 2 HALs, Tin HALs and 4 SUBs (possibly 4 EPBs, 2 EPBs and 2 HAPs too), would have the wider spaced trussing. Now if anyone thinks this is wrong let me know as I am about to start cutting the brass for the trusses! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I think the answer to the truss question has been found. Looking at 4 SUB 4680's details in 'The 4 SUB Story' and referring to more information in David Brown's Southern Electric' vol. I, the following can be said of the unit's trailer coaches: The first coach is TSO 8960, which was built old a chassis reclaimed from TC 9505 ex- Unit 1415, dating from 1925. It has the 'short spaced' trusses. The second trailer coach is TS 10304 built on a new chassis. Hopefully, this would mean that trailers built on new chassis post-1938, including 2 HALs, Tin HALs and 4 SUBs (possibly 4 EPBs, 2 EPBs and 2 HAPs too), would have the wider spaced trussing. Now if anyone thinks this is wrong let me know as I am about to start cutting the brass for the trusses! Colin Ah..., All is found ! I had a feeling I should have put my money on Dave's answer (post #86), Apologies Dave,....Top man. As a p.s., I've had a look for the missing photo(s) of 12795's u/f, but it's / they've gone AWOL....Next step...dig out the negatives. All the best, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I think the answer to the truss question has been found. Looking at 4 SUB 4680's details in 'The 4 SUB Story' and referring to more information in David Brown's Southern Electric' vol. I, the following can be said of the unit's trailer coaches: The first coach is TSO 8960, which was built old a chassis reclaimed from TC 9505 ex- Unit 1415, dating from 1925. It has the 'short spaced' trusses. The second trailer coach is TS 10304 built on a new chassis. Hopefully, this would mean that trailers built on new chassis post-1938, including 2 HALs, Tin HALs and 4 SUBs (possibly 4 EPBs, 2 EPBs and 2 HAPs too), would have the wider spaced trussing. Now if anyone thinks this is wrong let me know as I am about to start cutting the brass for the trusses! Colin Colin, et al. When I took a few measurements from 2Bil 2090 at Brighton on 3rd Aug 1984 I recorded the following. Outside edge to outside edge of queen posts on motor coach 8' 6" (give or take a half inch). On trailer 8' 6.5". (Allowance for slack tape) 8th March 1984 on 024 (ex 4Sub) 8' 6" (both were motors) On the old 012 = 8' 6.5" (old 1925 motors) On 023 (ex 2Hal motor) 8' 6" On 5235 (motor) and 5660 (trailer) both the same 8' 6" On S10307 trailer of 4Sub = 12' 0". I note this coach was condemned in 1974 so I must have measured this at Micheldever. The only trailer trussing I ever measured. Whew! These two sizes of trussing match those given in the MRC Plans book. The Plans book shows 4Sub trailers with both sizes of trussing. The short one being on both steel and Augmentation trailers (with canvas roof). Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Colin. I measured the front face of a queen posts and the trussing as 3.5" on 023. (ex 2 Hal) As for the 'drop', the distance from the underside of the solebar to the top of the horizontal trussing, I have the following:- on all 'short' trussing, 20". On the long trussed trailer 1' 5'5". All these must be taken with the view that I used a tape measure in the early days so .5" out is a possibility. Also I was sometimes over the top of a live third rail!!!!!! Sometimes now, I find myself doubting what I wrote down at the time. But it's more than likely correct. With the trailer 'drop' it might be wise to see if someone with access to the preserved Sub could check. The two 'drops' do look different to me. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Ah..., All is found ! I had a feeling I should have put my money on Dave's answer (post #86), Apologies Dave,....Top man. As a p.s., I've had a look for the missing photo(s) of 12795's u/f, but it's / they've gone AWOL....Next step...dig out the negatives. All the best, Frank. No apologies needed or expected, Frank. Most of my measurements were taken around 29 years ago and sometimes now I doubt what I wrote. For me, most of this is sort of guess work and / or summation. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 No apologies needed or expected, Frank. Most of my measurements were taken around 29 years ago and sometimes now I doubt what I wrote. For me, most of this is sort of guess work and / or summation. Dave Hi Dave, It all sounds good to me! I had estimated a distance between the queen posts on the long trussing to be about 12' 0" based on the fact that they appeared to span the equivalent of two compartments/bays in width. At least the parts for the underframes can now be cut: two long and two short sets. The unit I have decided on now is deifinitely 4377. This allows the modelling of the pseudo-composite (love that terminology!) trailer coach and justifies painting it green. All the best, Colin 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted September 3, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2013 I think you need 2 units, with enough differences to be worth doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I think you need 2 units, with enough differences to be worth doing. I happen to think you need 4 units and give me one. However, this subject now seems to be entering the realms of cyber bullying. :nono: :nono: :nono: Sorry. Just could not resist that. Anonymous! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 I reckon Colin ought to re-name his workshop 'Newhaven Park Carriage and Wagon Works'. His output must be catching up with that of both Easleigh and Lancing, combined. p.s. I don't need m' coat, the sun's out ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 I think you need 2 units, with enough differences to be worth doing. I had crossed my mind! Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted September 4, 2013 Author Share Posted September 4, 2013 I happen to think you need 4 units and give me one. However, this subject now seems to be entering the realms of cyber bullying. :nono: :nono: :nono: Sorry. Just could not resist that. Anonymous! Not a very successful attempt at remaining anonymous Dave. If I could think of a quick way of knocking out the sides, maybe a production run would be feasible (do not hold your breath though!) Howard (HAB) and I have been mulling over the possibilities of cutting out 4 SUB windows with some sort of punch. Howard is more optimistic than me that it would work on 10 thou. plastic sheet. I favour some kind of scribing jig. In both cases, the idea would be to have the windows all of one compartment cut together without changing position for each aperture. Should either method prove possible, get ready for cavalcades of 4 SUBs. If not there is always the ruler and knife. All the best, Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted September 4, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2013 (edited) Not a very successful attempt at remaining anonymous Dave. If I could think of a quick way of knocking out the sides, maybe a production run would be feasible (do not hold your breath though!) Howard (HAB) and I have been mulling over the possibilities of cutting out 4 SUB windows with some sort of punch. Howard is more optimistic than me that it would work on 10 thou. plastic sheet. I favour some kind of scribing jig. In both cases, the idea would be to have the windows all of one compartment cut together without changing position for each aperture. Should either method prove possible, get ready for cavalcades of 4 SUBs. If not there is always the ruler and knife. All the best, Colin HI In one of the Model Railway Constructors was an article on Coach Construction that showed how to make a punch and die for punching out windows. I can't remember what issue it was (fairly sure it was a February one and would be from 1979 onwards as I had the magazine each month then). I also think that it was used on 10thou plasticard. I have a punch and die set for 0.6mm to 4mm discs and this will cut 20thou plasticard but then the area of the disc is nothing like the size of a window. Cheers Paul Edited September 4, 2013 by PaulCheffus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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