4 SUB Unit 4377, Bulleid 2 HAP upgrade - plus all matters third rail.

[SRman]

Here's a few.

 

7002-1.jpg

7002-2.jpg

7102-1.jpg

7102-2.jpg

7102-3.jpg

7102-4.jpg

 

I've had to photoshop a bit to bring out the details.

 

 

Dave

 

Great shots, Dave. I'm intrigued though by those of 7002 and 7102; prototype BEP/CEP units with framed windows like phase 2 mark 1s. They must have been modified at some stage in their lives.

[Colin parks]

The prototype Ceps (10) and Beps(5) had - as I am sure you know - external lighting and control conduits and 1951 equipment. They date from '56 and were used on the Central section so they suit my needs.  But I don't know of any drawings of the external layout and all the pics I have seen are not particularly clear being taken from ground level so I'm down to a bit of reverse engineering, regarding both the roof layout and the inter-coach jumpers (unless Dave et al can work some magic).   Now look - I am dragging your thread off topic even before its started: that is a record even for me!

 

Re repair strips, since they sit proud of the bodyside, I would have thought a bit of .005 could be rubbed down with smooth wetordry and a stiff glass fibre brush?  Perhaps before forming the profile?  From memory, I have sense that they were probably effectively about 3/16" think owning to the bevel along the top edge.   That's .0025 ...

 

Best wishes,

No problem Howard,

 

I didn't know that the prototype CEPs and BEPs has external lighting conduits etc.   Now I do have a copy of G T Moody's 1959 book on the Southern Electric.  There are two good shots of what look like the shoe beam and the inter-vehicle jumper cables of a 4 CEP.  I will 'make arrangements' to help you see these photos.

 

As for repair strips, yes 2 thou. would do me fine.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Thanks Frank,

 

Tape might be an option. I hadn't though of it, but it might be easier than thin paper.  I am assuming that the repair gussets would be of something like 1/8"  thick i.e. very thin in 4mm scale. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 Hi Colin.

 

If you go for the self-adhesive tape option, I found it easiest to cut thin strips when it was stuck down onto a sheet of thin steel / brass. Might be easier on a SUB, as no long strips are needed.

 

All the best.

 

Frank. 

[Colin parks]

Here's my scribbling on the matter.

 

When you get around to it, I'll explain some measurements if you wish.

 

Dave.

 

 

SubRoofDrawing139.jpg

Many thanks Dave once again!

 

I shall examine the drawings and compare them to the Mike King ones.  The trailer chassis trussing still remains a mystery at present.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Tigermoth]

On 01/09/2013 at 12:42, Colin parks said:

Hi Dave,

 

I am guessing that the centres of the  vertical posts on the 'wider form' of trussing is about 12' 0" and the narrower version is as per the drawings, at 8' 3" centres.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Hi Tigermoth,

 

Er, I don't do glue!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

OK

Edited December 21, 2020 by Tigermoth

[Colin parks]

Down to some actual work - well later today!

 

This shot shows the completed (well, almost!) Hornby 2 BIL alongside its surplus dummy motor bogie which is going under the 4 SUB. A new bogie side frame is to be ordered to match this one and will be fitted to the Black Beetle motor bogie in due course.  (I intend to buy the moulding that fits around the Hornby motorised bogie.)

 

 

Several problems have arisen with the Hornby motor bogie moulding:  The collector shoes are so low they would touch the third rail. This can be rectified by reducing the shoe beams mounting brackets, effectively raising the beam, plus thinning the collector shoes.  Also, the shoe beams are set too wide: 31.5mm as opposed to the prototype 29.5mm (approx.)  This has resulted in the collector shoes of the 2 BIL resting on the side-protection boards.  On the 4 SUB (and this 2 BIL), the motor bogies will have their shoe beams 'let in' to get things in line. 

 

(I know it's only 00 gauge Howard, but I am trying to get things in order - you never know when correctly spaced shoe beams might come in handy!)

 

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

...i was only trying to be helpfull, never mind.

Hi Tigermoth,

 

I wasn't trying to be dismissive, it's just the thought of glueing so many tiny strips puts me off.  I am, essentially, a lazy modeller!

 

All the best,

 

 

Colin

[Ceptic]

Hi Tigermoth,

 

Er, I don't do glue!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

 

 

Not after the Torrey Canyon / 4-COR disaster.

Edited September 1, 2013 by Ceptic

[Colin parks]

Hi Tigermoth,

 

Er, I don't do glue!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

 

 

Not after the Torrey Canyon / 4-COR disaster.

That was a bottle of solvent as it happens, if you are alluding to the ill-fated 9th 4 COR side Frank!

 

I now work with only small amounts of solvent in an old bottle, decanted as needed from a new bottle.  This avoids any large spillages whilst working.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

 A new bogie side frame is to be ordered to match this one and will be fitted to the Black Beetle motor bogie in due course.  (I intend to buy the moulding that fits around the Hornby motorised bogie.)

 

Any reason for not using a Hornby Motor bogie?  The one under my [rather-rubbish-compared-to-your] 2Bil runs beautifully and I have a bought a little stock in for future needs.

 

Best wishes,

[eastwestdivide]

On those lower-bodyside strips, this might be of some interest, although it's actually on a 4-EPB (same body profile though). Taken at an angle to fit in the coach number plus the  axlebox stamped LSWR. Think I posted it before somewhere on RMweb.

[dasatcopthorne]

Any reason for not using a Hornby Motor bogie?  The one under my [rather-rubbish-compared-to-your] 2Bil runs beautifully and I have a bought a little stock in for future needs.

 

Best wishes,

 

Howard.

 

Have you ever re-wheeled a new type Hornby MB.

 

I would like some wheels with less flange depth to run on our Club track.

 

Dave

[HAB]

Howard.

 

Have you ever re-wheeled a new type Hornby MB.

 

I would like some wheels with less flange depth to run on our Club track.

 

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Well, yes I have, but since I model in P4, my answer might or might not suit your needs.   For P4 it is very easy - just unclip the side frames, flirt out the old wheelsets, punch the wheels off the axles (which requires a bit of brutality) then push on Ultrascale wheels to gauge then re-assemble. Sometimes it is necessary to file about 0.5mm off the insides of the frames (and the outside brake pull rods) to give a bit of side clearance, but the boss on the back of the Ultrascale wheel fits pretty well either side of the Hornby gearbox.  The only fiddly bit is re-bending the pick-ups.

 

In truth, the result is far better than the starting point which has a mile of side play.

 

Of course, If you model in EM or 00, I don't know if the Ultrascale wheels would still fit around the gearbox as I am not familiar with their geometry.

 

For P4, I also have another method using Exactoscale wheels on new axles, which, because they are scale tyre width, fit inside the Hornby frames without any filing.

 

 

 

 

Hope that is helpful at least as a basis for further experiments!

 

Best Wishes,

[Clive Mortimore]

Oh very funny Clive. 

 

Q; Do you know how many windows there are in 2 x 4 SUB?  A: I make it approx. 440 - depending on the units involved!  

 

Off to buy more knife blades...

 

Colin

Hi Colin

 

I am not adverse to cutting out winders.......over 300 in this building and still more to do when I do the inside wall for the offices and stores.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67810-brisbane-roada-new-pig-lane/?p=1146000

 

I have noticed that before you even cut the first piece of plastic the thread has been hijacked about 4CEPs and BEPs .....that must be a record on one of Colin's threads. Well done guys.

 

Serious head on I am looking forward to seeing how this develops and what else we can learn about SR EMUs, the different trussing is already a puzzle.

[Colin parks]

On those lower-bodyside strips, this might be of some interest, although it's actually on a 4-EPB (same body profile though). Taken at an angle to fit in the coach number plus the  axlebox stamped LSWR. Think I posted it before somewhere on RMweb.

N8_0004 S 14327 S LSWR.jpg

Thanks for that photo estwestdivide,

 

The 4EPBs seemed to suffer from rust in just the same places as the 4 SUBs so the repairs would have been similar.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Any reason for not using a Hornby Motor bogie?  The one under my [rather-rubbish-compared-to-your] 2Bil runs beautifully and I have a bought a little stock in for future needs.

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

The answer to your question is primarily that I have a spare Black Beetle motor bogie, taken from the 2 BIL I gave to Oldlugger. I have noted that the complete Hornby unit can be obtained for £30 or so.

 

Two other good reasons not to use a Hornby 2 BIL motor bogie: the unit has to be top-mounted which is a bit harder to install and secondly; the unit is fine in the large luggage compartment of a 2 BIL, but the 4 SUB has a small luggage compartment which would mean that the motor would encroach on the adjacent passenger compartment/saloon.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Dave,

 

Well, yes I have, but since I model in P4, my answer might or might not suit your needs.   For P4 it is very easy - just unclip the side frames, flirt out the old wheelsets, punch the wheels off the axles (which requires a bit of brutality) then push on Ultrascale wheels to gauge then re-assemble. Sometimes it is necessary to file about 0.5mm off the insides of the frames (and the outside brake pull rods) to give a bit of side clearance, but the boss on the back of the Ultrascale wheel fits pretty well either side of the Hornby gearbox.  The only fiddly bit is re-bending the pick-ups.

 

In truth, the result is far better than the starting point which has a mile of side play.

 

Of course, If you model in EM or 00, I don't know if the Ultrascale wheels would still fit around the gearbox as I am not familiar with their geometry.

 

For P4, I also have another method using Exactoscale wheels on new axles, which, because they are scale tyre width, fit inside the Hornby frames without any filing.

 

 

Hornby MB -1.jpg

 

 

Hope that is helpful at least as a basis for further experiments!

 

Best Wishes,

Nice work there Howard.

 

I did have a conversation with Mr Ultrascale re. substitute wheelsets for the 2 BIL/4 COR etc. He said there was no demand. Your solution seems simple enough with any gauge - just change the wheels themselves for what look like ones of the ordinary coach type.

 

Have you checked the shoe beams and collector shoe clearances on your 2 BIL model yet?!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

Wow, These Chinese are getting greedy - I bought mine at the start of your Cor build and they only cost £23!  Good point about hiding them in a small Guards compartment though.

 

Best Wishes,

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin

 

I am not adverse to cutting out winders.......over 300 in this building and still more to do when I do the inside wall for the offices and stores.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67810-brisbane-roada-new-pig-lane/?p=1146000

 

I have noticed that before you even cut the first piece of plastic the thread has been hijacked about 4CEPs and BEPs .....that must be a record on one of Colin's threads. Well done guys.

 

Serious head on I am looking forward to seeing how this develops and what else we can learn about SR EMUs, the different trussing is already a puzzle.

Hi-jacking a thread Clive? I seem to remember something about Max Miller's aunt's house last year on the 4 CIG topic. Fair play though, it was at the end of the story!

 

That shed of yours looks a mighty effort by the way. I shall have another look.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Wow, These Chinese are getting greedy - I bought mine at the start of your Cor build and they only cost £23!  Good point about hiding them in a small Guards compartment though.

 

Best Wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

I somehow doubt it's the Chinese who are reaping the rewards. I bought a very similar (early 5 BEL)unit for my 4 COR for only £18.20 just after Christmas of last year.

 

Supply and demand maybe, but even £ 30.00 isn't a bad price.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[HAB]

 Your solution seems simple enough with any gauge - just change the wheels themselves for what look like ones of the ordinary coach type.

 

Have you checked the shoe beams and collector shoe clearances on your 2 BIL model yet?!

 

 

Not sure it would work with narrower gauges, as the bosses on the backs of the wheels might then be too close together - you could file a bit off, but they are made of pretty tough stuff!

 

Re third rail clearances, well, I had not, so I just did.

 

Here is the Hornby Bil;-

 

 

 

It is just a bit too good - the shoes ride up the juice rail and the unit stops!  All a bit academic of course, as the shoebeams (and axleboxes) need modification.

 

Here is the Bachman EPB - sits well enough over the rail, but Bachman thoughtfully provide some vertical clearance.

 

 

So you see how everything works out when your track gauge is to scale...

 

Now speaking of all this reminds me - where is Oldlugger?  I seem to recall him talking about working juice rails at SMH - perhaps he is gapped

 

Best wishes,

[Colin parks]

Hi Howard,

Interesting comparative photos of the 2 BIL and 2 EPB. Having seen the photo, I've just twigged what is wrong with the Hornby arrangement. The collector shoes are moulded onto the bottom edge of the shoe beam rather than being fixed behind. A quick check shows that moving the shoes inwards results in them being the scale distance apart. Stupid me, I remember now that I had to do this on the 4 COR. Here is a different Hornby bogie, but the same principle applies to the 2 BIL mouldings.




One can only wonder how many Hornby enthusiasts have had trouble getting their models to negotiate third rail sections!


I think Simon is back in France and no doubt working on the layout. (Or working on my old 2 BIL!)

All the best,

Colin

Edited September 2, 2013 by Colin parks

[HAB]

 The collector shoes are moulded onto the bottom edge of the shoe beam rather than being fixed behind. 

 

Spot on!  Hence you can see it overhangs the rail by about 50%.  

 

Do I understand you to say that you intend to have your shoes actually riding on the rails?  I have given it thought but sort of shied away from it!  It implies you had better get your ramps right" Equally, if you just leave them off - or have them high as per Bachman, they do look a bit wrong when seen from the non-juice rail side.

 

I might have to post a reply in the SMH thread to shake Simon for a response!

 

Best wishes,

[Colin parks]

Spot on!  Hence you can see it overhangs the rail by about 50%.  

 

Do I understand you to say that you intend to have your shoes actually riding on the rails?  I have given it thought but sort of shied away from it!  It implies you had better get your ramps right" Equally, if you just leave them off - or have them high as per Bachman, they do look a bit wrong when seen from the non-juice rail side.

 

I might have to post a reply in the SMH thread to shake Simon for a response!

 

Best wishes,

Hi Howard,

 

No, the shoes will have to be raised above the height of the third rail. There are some compromises which just have to be made!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Guest oldlugger]

Hello folks,

 

I'm here at your disposal... anytime! Very nice modelling Howard, and of course Colin (in advance of the developing SUB).

 

All the best

Simon

Edited September 1, 2013 by oldlugger