MOVING COAL - A Colliery Layout in 0 Gauge

[PGH]

I wanted to separate this comment from my last. I find the comments about weathering and natural looks REALLY tedious. At best they are rude and insulting, and I can only assume some sort of envy or jealousy.

 

Leave it out, for goodness sake.

 

You might be quite correct in that sentiment but as this is a forum there are inevitably those who think they could do better and are quite ready to demonstrate their "expertise" by telling you so.  Weathering seems to be akin to a form of religion to many on this forum and lacking what they think is sufficient application of dirt is likely to bring forth castigation by the weathering zealots, or 'filth fanatics'.  Personally I think weathering is something you should do - if you wish - after you get the details right, some seem to think that it's a substitute for getting the details right.

 

When I began to visit and photograph working standard gauge industrial railways in the early 1960s it was a welcome change from the uniform dreary scene to be found on BR at that time.  Industrial railways were different and varied, and there were still some extensive industrial railway systems passing through open countryside which with a few exceptions virtually disappeared within the next decade or so.  There were still some concerns and locomotive crews that took a pride in the appearance of their locomotives.  So I'm not particularly receptive to those who peddle the nonsense that models of industrial railways should be covered in a significant layer of filth to have "convincing realism" (whatever that is).

 

Given the experience of over 400 visits to NCB railway systems - mainly steam operated - over a period of approximately 20 years it should be no surprise that the parts I wish to recall in model form are what could be considered the 'best bits' of the experience.  A typical ideal scenario for this layout was laid out in the first post - the photos show a  semi rural location, a sunny day with blue sky, green grass and a moderately clean locomotive with the statement "This is perhaps the opposite of what some might imagine as a typical industrial system - a filthy locomotive working in a grimy industrial location."

Obviously some members couldn't take the hint, which should have been clear enough.

 

For the 'flip side' of this scenario I could recall wading through a sea of mud (slight exaggeration) in a colliery yard on a dull wet day in South Wales (an area I always found rather depressing especially in inclement weather) to view a filthy working steam locomotive - interesting and worthwhile at the time but a scene I would find quite depressing in model form and I don't 'do' model railways to get depressed, the idea is quite the reverse.  Personally I'm no fan of layouts that depict filthy locomotives in grotty industrial or urban locations, they seem to have become as much a cliche of the model railway scene as the GWR branch line terminus, but at least the latter is usually a bit more cheerful to look at.

[Kev_Lewis]

Wonderful sentiments PGH.

 

I've just had a look back at the photo in post one of NCB No. 24. There's so much character in that cared for loco, and not a patch of rust or limescale in sight. Perfect

 

(edit for spelling)

Edited January 11, 2015 by Kev_Lewis

[Barry O]

A long time ago I spent a morning with the shunter at South Hetton Colliery. The engine was a Hunslet built Austerity tank... it and the NCB wagons its was "playing" with ( they wasn't enough of them to make the engine work hard) were in very good condition and, at the end of the shift the loco got a quick wipe down before being put to bed...no rust, limescale etc to be seen but the top of the saddle tank was covered in soot and grime (hard to keep that bit clean).

 

So my industrials aren't heavily weathered ..my BR wagons are rather unkempt, dirty and rusty - but thats from my observations of the scenes I remember.

 

Baz

[Jintyman]

Coachman pointed me in this direction and I'm totally blown away, what an absolutely superb thread.

The level of engineering skill in those locomotive builds is second to none, the layout itself has a charm and character of open areas in the mining community, much of a likeness to a DVD I saw of the South Western Scottish coal mines once.

 

I must congratulate you on a most enjoyable and enlightening read. And I've only skipped through a couple of pages here and there.

 

Jinty

[hartleymartin]

In many industrial areas, crews took great pride in their locomotives and did keep them fairly clean for the most part. Any wrathering would be just a light layer of dust and grime from the air around the place.

[Les1952]

I've just found this topic and I'm very impressed.  Those with the ability to construct to such a high and consistent standard always bring out two feelings- admiration and envy. 

 

As someone who visited the NCB systems of County Durham as often as possible, and who grew up with an industrial system in 3 gauges (plus an overlooked monorail) just round the corner from my childhood home I'm well aware that getting the atmosphere of an industrial system isn't easy.

 

Clearly a work in progress, the grotty details will no doubt emerge in time- these require thought and don't appear overnight.  Even at Backworth, where you could eat a meal off the loco running plate, there were piles of ash and half-burnt bits of clinker here and there around the system where a loco had been standing and the driver had been working on improving the fire. 

 

Superb layout- and a lot to aspire to.  I wish I could do as well....

Les

[Norton961]

Superb layout, and if I can add a comment about industrial locos and how clean they were. My particular interest in the Lilleshall company and NCB Granville Colliery and the Granville locos were also kept clean, not super polished but kept clean and the crews took an interest in the locos.

The real trick is doing very subtle weathering to locos, in my case I weather and while the "grot" is still wet I take most of it back off just leaving the weathering in the nooks and crannies.

 

David

[2ManySpams]

Loving this layout, good to see an industrial layout done so well.

[PGH]

Its now 2 years since I last contributed any layout detail to this thread, how time flies !  Following that it was diverted (by others) into a rather long and unwelcome discussion on loco weathering, later removed by the moderators.  Maybe its now worth a try to describe the "moving coal" aspect of the layout without any further diversions.

 

This layout doesn't have a name, or some theoretical story about where it exists in the real prototype world, because it doesn't - its just a model railway.  Considering the scale its built in and the space it occupies I couldn't pretend that it represents a colliery system with "convincing realism" (whatever that means).  To do that in the space available would require 4mm scale or maybe even 2mm scale. 

There were (I vaguely recall, its so long ago) two main aims in building this layout.  The first was to build from scratch industrial locomotives in 7mm scale.  This was a time before kits were available and any thoughts of ready to run unimaginable.  Unfortunately this didn't get very far and was soon diluted by the introduction of kits (sometimes only partly used - but if you've spent the money it gives you some impetus to get the thing finished) and inevitably more recently ready to run like Ixion.

The second aim was to build a layout on which they could perform as much as practicable like the real thing, i.e. move coal from one end of the layout to the other, untouched by human hand except for twiddling knobs and flicking switches, and of course coupling/uncoupling three link couplings as any form of automatic coupling is a definite no no.  If the visual aspects of the layout could be made reminiscent of scenes and features I recall in visiting prototype railways all well and good, but this wasn't the primary consideration. 

Maybe all this is the reverse of how most modellers approach the building of a layout.

 

However progress in the last two years has been fairly minimal.  A fairly major change was converting the layout from DC to DCC sound operation.  This perversely required additional wiring due to the rather haphazard way the layout was previously wired in two halves with the only connection between the two via the rails on two removable sections.

 

A start was made on additional buildings as here:

 

 

based loosely on a prototype at Gin Pit, Tyldesley.

, 

But I do have other railway modelling interests which take time, like American O Scale outdoors - having a 'Grande day out'

 

 

 

Handlaying On3 (that's On three) track on a D&RGW inspired narrow gauge layout:

 

 

 

and more recently dabbling in 7/8" and 16mm scale live steam:

 

 

 

Confusing maybe, but it all makes sense to me    

 

tbc

Edited October 17, 2018 by PGH

[2ManySpams]

Welcome back.

 

A fantastic and diverse range of interests you have there. Looking forward to a few more photos (and a bit more self control by others).

[Jintyman]

 

Excellent stuff PGH, your layout thread is as diverse and interesting as your photographic thread.

I look forward to more, in all the variations, and as 2ManySpams said, more photos of progress.

 

Jinty

[Barnaby]

PGH your Colliery layout is looking superb and you have an outdoor layout too, wow.

 

I see Osgood is still riding shotgun on ***It's not finished yet*** which for most of us is always the case there is always some little part that can be tweaked/built or painted.

 

Great stuff keep it up..

[Allegheny1600]

Dear PGH,

I really do admire your aims and ambitions which you've held onto for far longer than I ever could despite developments that have superceded some of your original aims.

The main point for me, is operation as I feel that with some 'purpose' a layout is much more than a train set, it becomes a kind of super chess game instead!

I like your US stuff too, I guess you must know Bob Harper and maybe, Alan Lewis?

Cheers,

John E.

[Osgood]

GIN Pit, what a TONIC for sore eyes.

 

What purpose did the building serve? It seems too elaborate for a screens cover, so was it merely for an industry adjacent to the colliery site?

[Osgood]

Unless I'm mistaken I think this is the location of the view showing E. Clegg.  Miners Institute to the right (south).

 

In which case the bridge is gone and railway cutting filled, but good to note the new building (on the same footprint?) has been designed with the character of the old one it replaced in mind.

 

 

PGH, only yesterday I received a lovely negative of a derelict Hawthorn 340 - having just looked through Townley et al "I R of B,B and the M C Pt 2" (to try to find the purpose of the building), I now realise she worked at Gin Pit!  Happy to provide a print if you are interested.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Osgood

[PGH]

Unless I'm mistaken I think this is the location of the view showing E. Clegg.  Miners Institute to the right (south).

 

In which case the bridge is gone and railway cutting filled, but good to note the new building (on the same footprint?) has been designed with the character of the old one it replaced in mind..

 

Yes it is, how strange that they copied some features from the old building.  I've no idea what the actual purpose of the old building was but it was part of the Gin Workshops complex.  Loco repairs were carried out here but phased out after the erection of a new loco erecting shop at Walkden Yard in 1953

 

 

 

PGH, only yesterday I received a lovely negative of a derelict Hawthorn 340 - having just looked through Townley et al "I R of B,B and the M C Pt 2" (to try to find the purpose of the building), I now realise she worked at Gin Pit!  Happy to provide a print if you are interested.

 

Thanks for the offer, yes indeed I would be interested in acquiring a print or a digital scan if that would be more convenient.  I would be happy to pay any costs involved, send me a PM to let me know how you want to do it.

 

I doubt if this loco actually did any work at Gin Pit, it would have been too small for the work there.  This loco and Hawthorns 244 (now preserved at the National Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh) were used to work the restricted height tunnel on the line from Howe Bridge Colliery to Bedford Basin on the Leeds & Liverpool Canal. 

Gin Workshops carried out loco repairs for the Gin System and some other collieries to the west, and in fact there was an agreement with the LMS for light engines to travel under their own steam over the main line for that purpose.  Hawthorns 340 was noted at Gin in 1940 presumably for repair.

After vesting in the NCB it was at Howe Bridge in Feb 1947 "in fair condition", but under a British Railways Movement Order dated May 1947 it went from Jacksons Sidings to Ashton Moss Colliery (to the East of Manchester) to cover a short term loco shortage.  Jacksons Sidings is the main line connection to the Gin System so its assumed the loco went from Howe Bridge to Gin Shops under the existing LMS agreement for repair between Feb and May 1947. 

Under another BRMO dated Oct 1947 it was returned to the Atherton Area at Chanters Colliery; then Howe Bridge 1948-49; Gibfield 1950 where it was scrapped circa July 1952.

Edited November 5, 2015 by PGH

[PGH]

Dear PGH,

I really do admire your aims and ambitions which you've held onto for far longer than I ever could despite developments that have superceded some of your original aims.

The main point for me, is operation as I feel that with some 'purpose' a layout is much more than a train set, it becomes a kind of super chess game instead!

I like your US stuff too, I guess you must know Bob Harper and maybe, Alan Lewis?

Cheers,

John E.

 

John,

Thanks for your comments.  Yes I do know Bob Harper, my K36 has had several outings to his extensive Columbia & Western RR.  I know Alan through the N.Wales & W.Cheshire Area Group of the Gauge O Guild, being one of the founding members and with similar US interests.

 

By the way I mention the "off topic" items not because I want to appear a clever dick in doing lots of stuff but merely to explain why progress on the colliery layout has been limited.  At the moment I'm working on a Roundhouse 16mm scale live steam Penrhyn Railway CHARLES, trying to make it look a bit more like the real thing, and spent a few hours today at Penrhyn Castle measuring the prototype.  Then there's a rake of half finished slate wagons required to go with it.

However there is still a lot to describe on the colliery layout, although it might be a rather protracted affair.

Regards,

PGH

[Allegheny1600]

Hi PGH,

Well, it is a small world! I got to know Bob H. after I joined the Manchester MRS and enjoyed a few running sessions in his "basement empire", really good fun!

I got to know Alan after I went all American 0 scale and visited the Morecambe group a few times and Llanbedr(?) once, although that was a bit far for me!

Sadly I've subsequently gone all European H0 these days as my interests are so varied, I simply couldn't afford to chop & change as the fancy took me in 0 scale.

So, yes!

I appreciate having different things to focus on, causing thread drift at times but good for you, I find it refreshing and stimulating doing something different.

Cheers,

John.

[PGH]

BOLD is a W6 Class Peckett based on a prototype supplied new to the colliery of the same name near St.Helens in 1927.  It was built from an Eric Underhill kit although the resin tank unit supplied was the wrong shape so it was replaced by a scratch built tank/boiler unit.  Various other items were replaced such as the chimney, safety valves and cab fittings.  Also smaller diameter wheels were used nearer to the correct size than those supplied with the kit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The front axle bearings are fixed to each end of a tube which is pivoted in the centre to a frame cross member giving 3 point suspension.

 

 

 

There would have been plenty of room in the saddletank for fitting a decoder and speaker if that had been anticipated.  To do that retrospectively would have required dismantling and extensively modifying the tank/boiler unit so the decoder was fitted between the frame cross member and the underside of the boiler where its effectively hidden by the springs and sandboxes on the footplate.  The sugar cube speaker is fitted between the frames just behind the front buffer beam.  There was enough space around the motor to fit 6 capacitors.

 

[PGH]

I take your locos for granted Phil but looking at these photos shows how clean your workmanship is. Which sound decoder did you fit?

 

I fitted the Zimo MX645 with Digitrains J94 sound program + LS10x15S sugar cube speaker and 6 x 680uf stay alive capacitors.

[New Haven Neil]

I should imagine measuring the real Charles was depressing when comparing it to the Roundhouse model - one of their less accurate renditions I have always thought, even given the tolerance of garden railways.  Don't tell Rog and Chris I said so, please!  We sell enough of them......

 

Moving Coal however, is massively inspirational - please keep posting.

[PGH]

I should imagine measuring the real Charles was depressing when comparing it to the Roundhouse model - one of their less accurate renditions I have always thought, even given the tolerance of garden railways.  Don't tell Rog and Chris I said so, please!  We sell enough of them......

 

 

I used to dismiss live steam garden railways until a friend let me have a go on his radio controlled Roundhouse loco and introduced me to the local group of the 16mm Association who seem to be a very hospitable and friendly lot.  A light relief I think from the more serious modelling stuff.

 

I have an particular interest in the Penrhyn because many years ago with a school friend we called at Port Penrhyn one day and were told that a party would be travelling up to the quarry later and if we wished we could travel with them.  So we got a return ride up the railway in one of the quarrymen's coaches.  I made more than a dozen more visits to the quarry before the rail system finished completely in 1967, some official others rather less so.  If I hadn't built a layout moving coal it would probably have been one moving slate.

 

With regard to the Roundhouse CHARLES:

lengthwise its not too bad, tank about 1½mm too short, smokebox about 2mm too long.  Wheel dia, wheelbase and front overhang OK.  It has the slightly longer cab and rear overhang appropriate to LINDA and BLANCHE (the prototypes had a slightly longer firebox than CHARLES)

heightwise the frame and cylinders are about right but the cab and tank sit 4-5mm too high and top of smokebox to rail level is about 8mm too high.

widthwise the frames, smokebox and tank are 8mm too wide, width over cylinders a bit more and the cab 10mm too wide.  The extra width no doubt to accommodate operation on 45mm gauge as well as 32mm.

 

Visually I think the most noticeable difference from the prototype is the increased height of the smokebox above the cylinders, partly due to the extra width and hence diameter of the smokebox top.  Does the lack of accuracy depress me considering what its intended to do ? - No, I'm afraid it doesn't, and its had outings on both 32mm gauge and 45mm gauge lines.

 

 

 

I have replaced the standard Roundhouse chimney with something more accurate and intend to replace the buffers with the correct type which will unfortunately require new buffer beams.

[New Haven Neil]

The chimney makes a huge difference, nice bit of turning there.

 

I'm in total agreement about accuracy not needing to be at the forefront of garden railways, but when you said you were measuring the real thing I knew it would be a bit off - the compromise of dual gauge, as you say.  There is just something about that particular model that I find bothering, the width probably, more than the pitch of the smokebox.

 

Steam in the garden is indeed an escape from the more accurate world of indoor railways, a different branch of our hobby with different rewards.  I love them both!  Today, however, is not a day for outside!

 

Sorry for the OT.

[PGH]

 

BICKERSHAW and LYON were two of the three Hunslet 15" cylinder 0-6-0STs at Bickershaw Colliery.  They are 85A models bought ready to run, I think before they became available in kit form, with some added detail.  At Nationalisation Bickershaw Colliery was included in the Manchester Area and BICKERSHAW is in that area's livery of black lined yellow, the lining expertly carried out as usual by Larry (coachmann).  On 1st January 1952 the colliery was transferred to the Wigan Area and both locos passed through the Kirkless Workshops in Wigan, probably both receiving the Wigan Area's unusual livery of green tank/boiler/wheels, black cab and red frames.  LYON certainly did and still retained that livery when I saw it stored out of use at the closed Ince Moss Colliery shortly before it was scrapped.

 

 

 

 

The space for DCC fitting was limited to the hollow smokebox and bunker, the latter accessed via a slot between the frames.  The Zimo decoder was fitted vertically in the smokebox, the end can be seen just behind the front brake cross beam on the right of the photo and the sugar cube speaker fits between the front of the frames.  Six capacitors were fitted in the bunker in three pairs by inserting two pairs through the slot and pushing to each side leaving room for the final pair in the middle.  

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by PGH

[hartleymartin]

I do wish that 85A would re-run that kit. It's practically a perfect representation of No. 79