GWML Electification

[D1059]

Steventon bridge update

 

I hear from my source that NR's proposal for demolishing and rebuilding the bridge will shortly go before the the council planning committee for consideration.

 

Such is the delay on getting a decision, that with NR's other engineering commitments and requirements, I understand the EARLIEST the existing bridge could be even be demolished is now May 2018 - and NR have said previously that rebuilding will take at least another 9-10 months

 

There is, however, still the option to jack the existing bridge up to provide the required clearances if NR will take it seriously

[black and decker boy]

You could demolish the bridge, string up the wires and then rebuild the deck under weekend isolations.

 

Not ideal for construction purposes but gives quick solution to the OHLE and electric trains running further westwards

Edited July 19, 2017 by black and decker boy

[phil-b259]

 

There is, however, still the option to jack the existing bridge up to provide the required clearances if NR will take it seriously

 

I presume supporters of such an option (such as yourself) have given due consideration to things like buried services, the need to raise the road approaches to match the new height, the condition of the bridge structure (i.e. whether its going to need replacing within 10 - 20 years anyway) and just how much it will have to be raised by so it compliances with the recently updated ORR rules (which has seen bridges previously rebuilt by BR with sufficient clearance now decreed 'non compliant').

 

If so, and there are no problems with raising the bridge then your comment is valid - conversely if such an approch causes significant problems then NR is perfectly within its rights to dismiss the option at an early stage.

[Gordon Connell]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

 

Electrification from Cardiff to Swansea abandoned.

 

and as reported on the DfT website: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-improvements-for-rail-passengers-in-wales-the-midlands-and-the-north

Edited July 20, 2017 by Gordon Connell

[jamie92208]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

 

Electrification from Cardiff to Swansea abandoned.

I don't think that this comes as a surprise. I can't remember the details but I seem to remember that there was quite a row about who was actually going to pay for that bit as it also forms part of the Valley Lines scheme.

 

However they won't be able to use any straight electrics on that service.

 

Jamie

[SouthernMafia]

Electrifying to Swansea always seemed a bit of a daft idea. One HST an hour occasionally two, to be replaced by now bi-mode IETs that are quicker than HSTs due to acceleration, provide more seats and would have had no impact on overall journey time from Cardiff to Swansea over an HST whether wires went up or not. And this benefit to Wales will happen this Autumn, years before electrification would've been completed.

But of course the politicians are having a field day in moaning about it.

[Zomboid]

I hope I haven't missed anything in thinking that Oxford and Bristol survived today's bloodbath?

[John_Miles]

Electrifying to Swansea always seemed a bit of a daft idea. One HST an hour occasionally two, to be replaced by now bi-mode IETs that are quicker than HSTs due to acceleration, provide more seats and would have had no impact on overall journey time from Cardiff to Swansea over an HST whether wires went up or not. And this benefit to Wales will happen this Autumn, years before electrification would've been completed.

But of course the politicians are having a field day in moaning about it.

 

It's more about perception. The economy in west Wales is in a bad state and this gives the impression the government doesn't give a damn and if you were someone thinking of inward investment you might pick up on this and go elsewhere.

[woodenhead]

Whether or note the bi-mode IEP will be better or not than an electric over this stretch of track is irrelevant - that's more luck than design.

 

The simple fact is Network Rail and the Government got their sums wrong all those years ago and now infil schemes are being scrapped which really puts a lot more future schemes into question.  There was once a rolling scheme of electrification, that now looks to be ended, all this electrification was impacting purchasing of diesel units as they were being tagged obsolete, now it is clear that diesels will be around a lot longer than ever anticipated.  What is the future of the Valleys scheme now, is that also up for scrapping.

 

It's a mess.

 

I wonder if there is also the little issue of power production - there was recently an article about how many power stations we need to keep charging all these electric motor vehicles and lots more wire at 25Kv is going to offer similar challenges.

 

If supply/demand is going to be marginal why not manage down the demand - that seems to be the policy today - don't invest just stop stuff.

Edited July 20, 2017 by woodenhead

[D1059]

I presume supporters of such an option (such as yourself) have given due consideration to things like buried services, the need to raise the road approaches to match the new height, the condition of the bridge structure (i.e. whether its going to need replacing within 10 - 20 years anyway) and just how much it will have to be raised by so it compliances with the recently updated ORR rules (which has seen bridges previously rebuilt by BR with sufficient clearance now decreed 'non compliant').

 

If so, and there are no problems with raising the bridge then your comment is valid - conversely if such an approch causes significant problems then NR is perfectly within its rights to dismiss the option at an early stage.

 

I mentioned the bridge jacking purely as fact, not because I am especially a supporter (I recognise the need for change, but want the minimum amount of local disruption). The local council has done considerable work researching this option and I'm sure that such requirements you have mentioned have been raised and taken into consideration. Network Rail, however, I understand have not been overly co-operative in embracing this method, even as an alternative option. They have Plan A and nothing else.

 

It very much looks like this section will not see wires until at least May 2018, with the bridge rebuild being completed with knitting in place underneath (or the wires not being installed until early 2019)

[Geoff Endacott]

I wonder what the man who designed the bridge would have made of this? I suspect that he would tell them to just knock it down and get on with the electrification project.

 

Geoff Endacott

[jim.snowdon]

I clocked this this afternoon. There's a proper catenary and contact coming into platform 1 at the country end, but once it straightens out off the curve, it strays over to be suspended symmetrically midway between the lines 1 and 2 down to the buffer stop end.most odd.

Looking at it this afternoon, platform 1 has properly aligned catenary all the way to the stops, but platform 2 has nothing. Curiously, although the last section up to the stops is insulated and solidly connected to Earth with a permanent jumper, it is still (and unnecessarily) anchored to the final structure with a full 25kV insulator.

 

Jim

[Edwin_m]

The Grayling announcement is announcing something new for MML (bi-mode trains) as some consolation for cancelling electrification.  For Cardiff-Swansea it's not even doing that, as the IEP fleet was announced years ago. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

This electrification project is starting to get annoying. The problem is, you can't get a cello on a bus.

 

The next in my series of fund-raising concerts features the cellist Laura van der Heijden (BBC Young Musician 2012) in Chippenham on 15th July. Laura and her fellow musicians were going to travel to and from London by train, but there is a bus replacement service from Swindon to Chippenham and you can't get a cello on a bus!

 

Out via Westbury and taxi to Swindon for the return seems the best option. (Unless anyone has a better idea.)

 

Geoff Endacott

 

If there are several of them, much cheaper to hire a suitable car.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Electrifying to Swansea always seemed a bit of a daft idea. One HST an hour occasionally two, to be replaced by now bi-mode IETs that are quicker than HSTs due to acceleration, provide more seats and would have had no impact on overall journey time from Cardiff to Swansea over an HST whether wires went up or not. And this benefit to Wales will happen this Autumn, years before electrification would've been completed.

But of course the politicians are having a field day in moaning about it.

Bi-mode IETs are quicker than HSTs under the wires. But I don't think they will be when running on diesel.

[ejstubbs]

This electrification project is starting to get annoying. The problem is, you can't get a cello on a bus.

 

I've definitely seen someone taking a cello on a bus.  It was in a hard case, and they had it partially on the seat next to them as it wouldn't fit in the luggage space, which obviously wouldn't be popular if the bus was crowded - I suspect the driver would not allow it on if that were the case.  But it can be done if the driver permits it.

 

A double bass now...

[SouthernMafia]

Bi-mode IETs are quicker than HSTs under the wires. But I don't think they will be when running on diesel.

As I've mentioned in the Class 800 thread Hitachi have undertaken work to "un-muzzle" the diesel engines on the 800s so they will match the performance of an 802, and more importantly an HST at 125mph. With the line speed limitations West of Exeter and in Wales, and the increased performance gained from improved acceleration, an IET will certainly match an HST and get there before it.

[frobisher]

As I've mentioned in the Class 800 thread Hitachi have undertaken work to "un-muzzle" the diesel engines on the 800s so they will match the performance of an 802, and more importantly an HST at 125mph. With the line speed limitations West of Exeter and in Wales, and the increased performance gained from improved acceleration, an IET will certainly match an HST and get there before it.

Presumably, as long as said 800's don't have to run the distance that the 802's do on diesel, the reduced fuel load and scrubbing consumables capacity won't be too much of an issue.

[Fat Controller]

Bi-mode IETs are quicker than HSTs under the wires. But I don't think they will be when running on diesel.

It's not the maximum speed that will count west of Cardiff. rather the acceleration out of the numerous PSRs. Line speed is largely 75mph maximum until Bridgend; there are then some stretches at 90 mph, and a short stretch at 100 mph near Pyle. (info from the Western Sectional Appendix)

[jim.snowdon]

The Grayling announcement is announcing something new for MML (bi-mode trains) as some consolation for cancelling electrification.  For Cardiff-Swansea it's not even doing that, as the IEP fleet was announced years ago. 

After the debacle of GW electrification, cancellation of the MML really ought not to come as a surprise. Bi-mode trains, whilst making engineering sense in avoiding the costs of electrifying lines with low traffic levels, seem to have been seized on by the politicians as a saviour in terms of not having to electrify at all. Next, it will dawn on them that by leaving off the transformer:rectifier sets, they can have a train that needs no wires at all (but then, isn't that exactly what a Voyager/Meridian set is?)

 

Jim

[D854_Tiger]

As I've mentioned in the Class 800 thread Hitachi have undertaken work to "un-muzzle" the diesel engines on the 800s so they will match the performance of an 802, and more importantly an HST at 125mph. With the line speed limitations West of Exeter and in Wales, and the increased performance gained from improved acceleration, an IET will certainly match an HST and get there before it.

 

A five car class 800 on diesel already matches the power of a HST, it was just the nine car case that may have been under powered.

 

If the class 800s are to be reconfigured to become class 802 then they should be like grease lightening compared to a HST.

 

I doubt there is any technical reason why the IEPs can't run at 125 mph on diesel, more likely just a specification issue.

 

Having said that will they be required to run anywhere on diesel at 125 mph on the GW.

[Coryton]

Electrifying to Swansea always seemed a bit of a daft idea. One HST an hour occasionally two, to be replaced by now bi-mode IETs that are quicker than HSTs due to acceleration, provide more seats and would have had no impact on overall journey time from Cardiff to Swansea over an HST whether wires went up or not. And this benefit to Wales will happen this Autumn, years before electrification would've been completed.

But of course the politicians are having a field day in moaning about it.

 

Though the advantage of electrification all the way to Swansea would be that pure electric trains could be used and therefore not have to lug diesel engines and fuel under the wires for a large part of the journey.

 

And either they stick to an all bi-mode fleet or have some trains that can go to Swansea and some that can't, which reduces flexibility.

 

As for there being only one, maybe two trains an hour, when the ECML was electrified they did the bit between Doncaster and Leeds which had a mostly hourly service (both before and after electrification). I don't recall people complaining about that at the time. (I'm not sure how frequent the York route was in those days...I suspect hourly too but could be wrong).

 

How many WCML trains run all the way to Glasgow? Is it even hourly?

 

None of which means that this is the wrong decision, given where we are. But there is a difference between it not being value for money/affordable, and what seems to be the party line which is that it isn't worth it because it would bring no improvement whatsoever.

 

It's more about perception. The economy in west Wales is in a bad state and this gives the impression the government doesn't give a damn and if you were someone thinking of inward investment you might pick up on this and go elsewhere.

 

Interesting point that. I've just been reading a book about the DLR, and it claims that the reason that the section on the Isle of Dogs is elevated was so that it had a high profile, rather than for technical reasons - given that the aim of the DLR was to encourage regeneration they wanted to make sure people knew it was there.

 

The book also makes the point that it was on budget and (almost) on schedule. But that the design and build contractor didn't make any money doing it...

[Siberian Snooper]

The GWML is not the only electrification programme which is being done ad hoc the North western and Scotrail are also hit and miss, with lots of foundation tubes fitted and then a gap, ditto with masts and arms etc.

 

It would seem that none of the schemes start at one end and work through to the other end in a continuous manner.

[DY444]

As I've mentioned in the Class 800 thread Hitachi have undertaken work to "un-muzzle" the diesel engines on the 800s so they will match the performance of an 802, and more importantly an HST at 125mph. With the line speed limitations West of Exeter and in Wales, and the increased performance gained from improved acceleration, an IET will certainly match an HST and get there before it.

 

This is a complex issue.  Trials of the modified engine software in 800s have shown that when running at the higher rating for extended periods of time the engine cooling is very marginal.  It is thus entirely possible that the engine protection system will start to derate the engines to protect them particularly on hot days.  In "muzzled" mode the IET cannot match HST point to point times on sections with higher line speeds.  This will affect timekeeping.  It is jokingly said that the real reason the Box road is being electrified as as far as Thingley Jn is to avoid the embarrassment of IETs labouring up Dauntsey Bank from a stop at Chippenham on hot days.  Whilst the official reason is to do with grid feeds, I think there may be an element of truth in it.  Performance up Stormy Bank on a hot day will be interesting.

 

A second issue with extended 800 diesel operation which is often overlooked is brake pad wear and its effect on exam intervals.   The dynamic braking on the 800s only functions when running on AC so the more miles you do on diesel the more frequently you need to change the pads.  802s have dynamic braking on both AC and diesel and an uprated rheo system to support that.  My understanding is that changing 800s to match is non-trivial.

 

The final point is the cost of these changes in operation.  Any half decent project manager knows that you make your real money on contract changes and in this case there is a major change in the way the 800s are going to be operating.  That will be reflected in the lease and maintenance charges.  I think there is a distinct likelihood that those costs over the 27.5 year lease will be greater than the money saved by not completing the electrification as originally envisaged.

[jjb1970]

Keep them variation orders rolling in, makes me wish I had a few Hitachi shares......