GWML Electification

[woodenhead]

This must be the first time though in the world of an electrification programme where the new trains will pass along the route without the electrification actually having been installed in many parts and this has created a new normal that in future there will be gaps wherever it is felt it is too expensive to put in wires.

 

I am waiting for the announcement in a couple of years of the Trans Pennine electrification being 'complete' with trains running electric from Liverpool to Stalybridge, around the Leeds suburbs and then between York and Newcastle.

[corneliuslundie]

"Not a failure mode I ever recall with older stock, and it didn't even go near Dawlish!"

It happened with the Class 170 DMUs on the Midland Main Line, but not for long.

Jonathan

[Edwin_m]

"Not a failure mode I ever recall with older stock, and it didn't even go near Dawlish!"

It happened with the Class 170 DMUs on the Midland Main Line, but not for long.

Jonathan

I think they suffered from roof leaks, but the photos on the BBC link suggest a real cascade and the text indicates it originates in the aircon.  Did that happen to 170s too? 

[Zomboid]

Trains with broken Aircon are certainly nothing new. I've ridden too many 159s in the summer...

[woodenhead]

I think it's fair to report it if there is water pouring from the ceiling in the first passenger working.  Not a failure mode I ever recall with older stock, and it didn't even go near Dawlish!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-41633356

I've had water pour onto me on a Pendolino from the aircon, similar manner to the pictures, just one set of seats affected and of course it happens only on a full train so nowhere to go.

[Mike Storey]

This must be the first time though in the world of an electrification programme where the new trains will pass along the route without the electrification actually having been installed in many parts and this has created a new normal that in future there will be gaps wherever it is felt it is too expensive to put in wires.

 

I am waiting for the announcement in a couple of years of the Trans Pennine electrification being 'complete' with trains running electric from Liverpool to Stalybridge, around the Leeds suburbs and then between York and Newcastle.

 

I think you will find Grayling has already said as much, in the infamous recent "there are some places on Trans-Pennine where it may be too difficult to electrify".......

[Northroader]

The bbc west report on today’s happenings said that besides the aircon cascade, they had difficulty on the electric bit Maidenhead Paddington in that the pantograph wouldn’t go up.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A little bit of drift here perhaps?

The mishaps on the first Class 800 run are being discussed over in the Class 800 thread.

 

 

 

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[royaloak]

Oxford City council have a long track record for hair brained schemes that don't benefit anyone who has to carry out any business in the town ,plus of course you stand a good chance of being flattened by a bus! As to electric trains to Oxford I totally agree that they will not happen for a long while possibly never,the only reason for wires would be if they continued  to Birmingham ,another very long shot.Also I can see locals only from Didcot as the 800,s will be required for the mainline with a few through services am pm that's all they will get..,Northwards is a strange situation as only a few locals trundle to Banbury and Cross Country  is favoured to Birmingham .I can see that Chiltern is going to be the service for London a much better timetable and trains ,seems as GWR don't want any commuters.

Who would benefit from the wires going to Birmingham?

Cross Country operate those services and they dont have any electric trains.

 

Electrifying from Didcot to Oxford means the intended class 387 services could continue on to Oxford (as originally intended) releasing the 165/166s to Bristol.

[Zomboid]

Who would benefit from the wires going to Birmingham?

Cross Country operate those services and they dont have any electric trains.

 

Nor did GWR before they decided to electrify. That's not really much of an argument...

Though that line I think was more on a freight basis, electrifying Didcot to Coventry (and Reading to Basingstoke) would make the Manchester - Bournemouth route all electric with dual voltage units.

[96701]

Nor did GWR before they decided to electrify. That's not really much of an argument...

Though that line I think was more on a freight basis, electrifying Didcot to Coventry (and Reading to Basingstoke) would make the Manchester - Bournemouth route all electric with dual voltage units.

Yes, but there aren't any dual voltage units that do those workings which was royaloaks point that the service is provided by Cross Country who only have diesels.

[Coryton]

Who would benefit from the wires going to Birmingham?

Cross Country operate those services and they dont have any electric trains.

 

Of course traditionally the wires came first and then the electric trains.

 

It's only now we have these fancy bi-mode thingies that we've started doing it the other way round...

[jim.snowdon]

Nor did GWR before they decided to electrify. That's not really much of an argument...

Though that line I think was more on a freight basis, electrifying Didcot to Coventry (and Reading to Basingstoke) would make the Manchester - Bournemouth route all electric with dual voltage units.

I have always understood the logic for electrifying Basingstoke to Coventry was primarily for freight.

 

Jim

[royaloak]

Nor did GWR before they decided to electrify. That's not really much of an argument...

Though that line I think was more on a freight basis, electrifying Didcot to Coventry (and Reading to Basingstoke) would make the Manchester - Bournemouth route all electric with dual voltage units.

Which FOCs have shown any real interest in running with electric locos bearing in mind very few terminals are wired so the electric loco cant haul the train from terminal A onto the mainline or from the mainline into terminal B?

[woodenhead]

Yes, but there aren't any dual voltage units that do those workings which was royaloaks point that the service is provided by Cross Country who only have diesels.

And Cross Country can order new trains if it needs to just like any other TOC.

 

With IEPs coming on stream and both Trans Pennine and Northern getting new trains for longer distance work very soon Cross Country will look shabby and it has the longest routes to manage.

 

More HSTs would help with capacity but some bi-mode units would probably help Cross Country right now.

[Coryton]

Which FOCs have shown any real interest in running with electric locos bearing in mind very few terminals are wired so the electric loco cant haul the train from terminal A onto the mainline or from the mainline into terminal B?

 

Isn't that what the DRS class 88's are for?

[royaloak]

And Cross Country can order new trains if it needs to just like any other TOC.

 

With IEPs coming on stream and both Trans Pennine and Northern getting new trains for longer distance work very soon Cross Country will look shabby and it has the longest routes to manage.

 

More HSTs would help with capacity but some bi-mode units would probably help Cross Country right now.

No TOC can simple go and order new trains when they want, the DaFT control all that.

 

More HSTs they will (probably) get, bi modes would be a bloomin nightmare bearing in mind how many staff would need to be trained up on them.

Why do you think the HSTs only work on the Edinburgh to Plymouth axis, so they can minimise the number of crews that need training on them.

Edited October 16, 2017 by royaloak

[Coryton]

No TOC can order new trains, the DaFT control all that.

 

Really?

[royaloak]

Isn't that what the DRS class 88's are for?

DRS are not actually a FOC they are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Nuclear authority and were set up purely for the nuclear trains, they have since decided to 'play trains' and some of the  leasing companies have been 'having a chat' about them stealing TOC work by buying (with Government money) class 68 and 88 locos with no actual core work for them.

 

From an enthusiast point of view its all good fun but from those running the leasing companies it is basically a wee wee take,

Really?

Yes because the TOC will only have the franchise for between 7 and 10 years so what are they going to do with the trains at the end of it?

Why would a TOC have free rein to buy any trains they want?

Why would any TOC buy a train (after going through all the hoop jumping) with a 30 year life when they only have a 7 to 10 year franchise and it would probably take 3 years to go through the ordering and building processes. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by royaloak

[Coryton]

Yes because the TOC will only have the franchise for between 7 and 10 years so what are they going to do with the trains at the end of it?

Why would a TOC have free rein to buy any trains they want?

Why would any TOC buy a train (after going through all the hoop jumping) with a 30 year life when they only have a 7 to 10 year franchise and it would probably take 3 years to go through the ordering and building processes. 

 

Well no TOC's don't normally buy trains themselves - the leasing companies do (with trivial exceptions - didn't GWR buy some HST power cars outright? And I'm pretty sure ATW bought the bubble car for the Cardiff Bay route).

 

But unless I really haven't been paying attention, TOCs do indeed procure trains to last well after their franchise and the class 800's are unusual in having been procured by the DfT not a TOC (not counting the 802's procured directly by GWR - with permission from the DfT).

 

I'm certainly not saying that TOCs have a free rein - from what I've seen the franchise ITTs are very prescriptive - but they make the decisions on what to buy within constraints. Don't they?

[Mike Storey]

DRS are not actually a FOC they are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Nuclear authority and were set up purely for the nuclear trains, they have since decided to 'play trains' and some of the  leasing companies have been 'having a chat' about them stealing TOC work by buying (with Government money) class 68 and 88 locos with no actual core work for them.

 

From an enthusiast point of view its all good fun but from those running the leasing companies it is basically a wee wee take,

Yes because the TOC will only have the franchise for between 7 and 10 years so what are they going to do with the trains at the end of it?

Why would a TOC have free rein to buy any trains they want?

Why would any TOC buy a train (after going through all the hoop jumping) with a 30 year life when they only have a 7 to 10 year franchise and it would probably take 3 years to go through the ordering and building processes. 

 

I would respectfully ask the new owners of the South West franchise, and then answer that question again.

 

Ditto - Greater Anglia, GWR (other than core IEP service) and TPE, plus others dating back to 1996.

 

Your proposition only really applies where the "franchise" is actually a management contract for an interim, or, more recently, contains specific conditions relating to the exact train to be used on specific groups of services, whilst major infrastructure works take place. In all other situations, the rolling stock leasing company actually takes the long term risk (and some short term, with miles per casualty deals), whilst the franchise takes a short term risk.

[Coryton]

I would respectfully ask the new owners of the South West franchise, and then answer that question again.

 

Ditto - Greater Anglia, GWR (other than core IEP service) and TPE, plus others dating back to 1996.

 

Your proposition only really applies where the "franchise" is actually a management contract for an interim, or, more recently, contains specific conditions relating to the exact train to be used on specific groups of services, whilst major infrastructure works take place. In all other situations, the rolling stock leasing company actually takes the long term risk (and some short term, with miles per casualty deals), whilst the franchise takes a short term risk.

 

I presume that the leasing company makes their decision on what to charge over the remaining lifetime of the franchise based on their confidence that someone else will want to continue to lease the stock afterwards. I imagine this has generally seemed a safe bet. Perhaps it's looking less of a certainty now (going back to SWR).

[jim.snowdon]

Which FOCs have shown any real interest in running with electric locos bearing in mind very few terminals are wired so the electric loco cant haul the train from terminal A onto the mainline or from the mainline into terminal B?

And if you look at Willesden FLT, even though it isn't used for that purpose any more, the OLE is still arranged so that an electric loco could either back trains into the unloading area or draw them out from there. Freightliner, in particular, undertake quite a lot of electric haulage as it is, so they must have found an economic way round the problem.

 

At the moment, the biggest disincentive towards electric freight operation is the disjointed way in which the network has been electrified, resulting in many freight routes being only partly under the wires. In that situation, it is simply easier for the operator to stick a diesel loco on the front end and be done with it. Quite different to Europe, where electric freight haulage is much more common, and much more of their networks electrified as a result of better strategic thinking on the part of their railway operators and governments.

 

Jim

[Mike Storey]

I presume that the leasing company makes their decision on what to charge over the remaining lifetime of the franchise based on their confidence that someone else will want to continue to lease the stock afterwards. I imagine this has generally seemed a safe bet. Perhaps it's looking less of a certainty now (going back to SWR).

 

Quite. ROSCO's had relied on a fairly predictable second hand market. Both the continuing increase in competition (primarily from rolling stock suppliers) and the sudden changes in DfT infrastructure investment strategies, are making their lives somewhat less comfortable. The downside of this is that rolling stock leasing charges will increase as risk increases. Full life amortisation could become a luxury, and become front loaded (although accounting practices make that harder to explain on the returns, but still entirely possible), and in turn, that could make new trains even more economic, relatively, but only as an outright purchase.

 

Many have suggested that the DfT should intervene more to ensure a steady stream of orders and a relatively stable market. But when they have done so, we get the IEP, the most expensive train in UK history, and the probably the least good at what it will now be required to do. Design (and procurement) by committee has always had its faults. Somehow, BR got this mostly right in the end (bar perhaps the Leyland-origin rail bus we are still stuck with, although even that had its place in the finances made available at the time), but it took the lessons of the 1955 plan, which in effect caused a debacle until the mid 1960's, to learn the lessons needed.

 

TfL are an interesting half-way-house, where they have not dictated the train, but have dictated specifically what it has to do and contractually dealing direct (as with IEP), rather than giving the franchise a more general aspiration, leaving it to them to sort out the detail (which is really another management contract), and  have, so far, done well. But then, they have a very clear forward strategy. Whether this will continue, as they continue the fight to take over the Southern suburban system, is up for speculation. ScotRail are emulating this to a large degree, but via the franchise.

 

Quite what the right model is, going forward, only time will tell. But until there is more certainty over infrastructure strategy, particularly in the north and whatever this new £300m for HS2 connectivity means, I think it remains a mystery.

[Coryton]

Quite. ROSCO's had relied on a fairly predictable second hand market

 

Interesting way of looking at it - that the train I catch to work is a first hand train and the day the franchise changes the same train is suddenly second hand...

 

Of course in my case the train is....er....BR....Valley Lines....Wales and Borders......Arriva Trains Wales.....4th hand already....

 

(Although I think technically both numbers 2 and 3 were the "new" Cardiff Railway Company)