GWML Electification

[Mike_Walker]

To confirm, I understand there was no error on the part of the driver so it was obviously down to a failure of the equipment either on the train or lineside.  Hitachi and GWR are conducting an investigation.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Just to confirm, from my sources, the end of OLE protection Balises worked correctly.

 

Simon

[St. Simon]

4 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not really, the automatic end operation of the pantograph and engine management at the boundary of the OLE takes a task out of the driver's responsibility allowing him to concentrate on the safe operation of the train.  In this case not all trains stop at Newbury to effect a manual changeover.   The driver can see this has happened correctly from the TMS display in the cab and should therefore intervene if it does not.  As mentioned, the pan on 800316 failed to lower yesterday and hit the first bridge beyond the end of the OLE which at Newbury extends far enough west of the station to enable a turnback move to be made over the crossover.  To early to say what/why but no doubt several "please explains" have been circulating.

 

It is quite permissible to switch manually between diesel and electric only operation at full line speed in specifically designated areas and elsewhere at low speed (IIRC up to 20mph).

 

Hi,

 

I think 'Grovenor' was referencing the Cardiff West situation talked about further up the thread.

 

Although I must point out that non of the Power Change-Over locations on the Western are fully automatic, the driver is responsible for conducting the change-over (well, pushing the initiation button) as per the lineside signage. However, the end of OLE protection balises will initiate the power change-over immediately automatically if the driver doesn't

 

In the case of Newbury these balises are positioned the maximum pan lowering time at linespeed from the end of OLE on approach to Newbury Station, but the Power Change-Over site is actually on the Reading side of Newbury Racecourse Station, with the 'Abort' sign being positioned braking distance from the end of OLE. So the train should already be braking to a stand as it passes over the end of OLE protection balises, so shouldn't reach any structure capable of removing the pantograph with the Pantograph raised.

 

If you want to know a little more see here: Power Change-Over & High Speed Coasting Signage – Model Railway Signalling.blog

 

4 hours ago, 40052 said:

Are these trains not fitted with ADD, or is the distance between the end of the OLE and the bridge insufficient to allow the ADD to be effective in time? 

 

Yes, there are fitted with quite an intelligent ADD (i.e it can detect more than just over-height, such as high wide speeds), although I don't know about the distance between end of OLE and the Bridge (haven't got access to the Scheme Plan at the moment). 

 

Simon

[Steadfast]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Although I must point out that non of the Power Change-Over locations on the Western are fully automatic, the driver is responsible for conducting the change-over (well, pushing the initiation button) as per the lineside signage. However, the end of OLE protection balises will initiate the power change-over immediately automatically if the driver doesn't

Well timed, I was about to ask why, if it is automatic, do the drivers press buttons to change mode. Witnessed many times around Chippenham while road learning. Thanks for that.

 

Jo

[St. Simon]

26 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Well timed, I was about to ask why, if it is automatic, do the drivers press buttons to change mode. Witnessed many times around Chippenham while road learning. Thanks for that.

 

Jo

 

Hi Jo,

 

The reason for the manual change-over on Western is that the APCO system can't cope with every single scenario of power change-over on Western (particularly around the Bristol area, where there some very complex operations in terms of change-over), and GWR preferred that it was either all auto or all manual. But as a safety point of view, the very last ditch pantograph lowering is done automatically as a back up to driver error.

 

Simon

Edited August 15, 2023 by St. Simon

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not really, the automatic end operation of the pantograph and engine management at the boundary of the OLE takes a task out of the driver's responsibility allowing him to concentrate on the safe operation of the train.  In this case not all trains stop at Newbury to effect a manual changeover.   The driver can see this has happened correctly from the TMS display in the cab and should therefore intervene if it does not.  As mentioned, the pan on 800316 failed to lower yesterday and hit the first bridge beyond the end of the OLE which at Newbury extends far enough west of the station to enable a turnback move to be made over the crossover.  To early to say what/why but no doubt several "please explains" have been circulating.

 

It is quite permissible to switch manually between diesel and electric only operation at full line speed in specifically designated areas and elsewhere at low speed (IIRC up to 20mph).

That bridge is a heck of along way from the end of the wires as the ohle extends under the first two bridges west of Newbury.  So unless some overhead isn't tensioned correctly  - for whatever reason - the pan should surely have gone overheight and auto descended well before it hit the third bridge from the station .  So it might be something far more than finger trouble on somebody's oart.    I've noticed that the 80X changeover normally occurs some distance east of Newbury station.

 

18 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Maybe that bridge wilbe one as famous as the tunnel just West of Dollands Moor. I believe several Eurostar pantograph were caught there before HS1 opened. 

 

Jamie

I-m not entirely sure if anything actually hit the tunnel.  The first incident was a failure of a Driver to changeover to 3rd rail mode at the right place and the pan hit the signal gantry on the Continental Jcn side of the tunnel (but some bits might have been left to hit the tunnel?).

 

The second incident occurred beyind the tunnelk when for some reason never explained an SNCF Driver took it into his head to change back from 3rd rail collection to overhead and a pantogrph hit Sandling station footbridge before it even had a chance to go fully overheight.

 

The only other one which comes imm ediately to mind was when a pantograph hit the Westway bridge on the WLL - the Driver forgot to changeover to 3rd rail mode before leaving NPI after the set had been moving round under overhead power in the depot site.  So when it ran off the end of the overhead down towards the Westway bridge the pan duly went overheight and hit the bride before it had time to auto lower.

[40052]

Mike,

 

I  have a feeling the 3 Capitals sets weren't fitted with ADD

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/08/2023 at 10:42, 40052 said:

Mike,

 

I  have a feeling the 3 Capitals sets weren't fitted with ADD

Interesting pint although it would possibly have depended on the system setting.  I know a man who will know and will see if I can get an answer as my son sees hm fairly regularly

[rodent279]

What's ADD? Automatic Droppng Device?

[96701]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

What's ADD? Automatic Droppng Device?

Yup. Should get a VCB operation as well, otherwise there is a danger that the pan will try to drop under full load which creates a very interesting arc.

[Mike_Walker]

Before someone asks;  VCB: Vacuum Circuit Breaker.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

Before someone asks;  VCB: Vacuum Circuit Breaker.

That one I did know!

Also-

• APC(O)=Automatic Power Change (Over)
• ABB=Air Blast (circuit) Breaker

Edited August 18, 2023 by rodent279

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I've also seen these:

 

• A(d)PCO = Automatic Dynamic Power Change-Over
• A(s)PCO = Automatic Static Power Change-Over
• M(d)PCO = Manual Dynamic Power Change-Over
• M(s)PCO = Manual Static Power Change-Over

I just use APCO & MPCO!

 

Simon

[Kris]

I see that with the truncation of HS2 there was an announcement of the completion of the electrification into Bristol via Chippenham. 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

 

Point 74 is the bit relating to this. 

[Steadfast]

42 minutes ago, Kris said:

I see that with the truncation of HS2 there was an announcement of the completion of the electrification into Bristol via Chippenham. 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d64646a6955000d78b2e0/network-north-transforming-british-transport.pdf

 

Point 74 is the bit relating to this. 

I'll believe it when I see it though. There's a lot of "could" in there and the metro mayor (of which I'm not sure what he does besides have his face on the back of buses) will no doubt claim it for MetroWest, which in itself is no bad idea, improving local services in the area.

 

74.We will boost funding to the West of England Combined Authority by £100 million.50

The funding could be used for an extension of MetroWest to the south – covering Weston-super-Mare, Taunton/Exeter, and Worle/Weston-super-Mare Parkway. The authority could also start Temple Meads passenger and capacity enhancements, step-free access across the network and complete electrification between Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway and Chippenham. 

 

Let's see eh? Would be nice to see the money used to wire freight terminals and loops and to help subsidise electric freight to help get more freight on rail.

 

Jo

[corneliuslundie]

The authority could also start Temple Meads passenger and capacity enhancements, step-free access across the network and complete electrification between Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway and Chippenham. 

But doesn't Newtown Rail have responsibility for the main line, not the Mayor?

Jonathan

[jamie92208]

There is also mention in the latest Modern Railways of funding for  development work on a scheme to electrify the missing link between Acton Yard and Acton Wells on the North London Line.  It is apparently to allow easy reversals of trains when the line into Paddington is closed  when the major blockades take place at Old OaCommon but wil also be able to be used by freight.

 

Jamie

[Steadfast]

20 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

There is also mention in the latest Modern Railways of funding for  development work on a scheme to electrify the missing link between Acton Yard and Acton Wells on the North London Line.  It is apparently to allow easy reversals of trains when the line into Paddington is closed  when the major blockades take place at Old OaCommon but wil also be able to be used by freight.

 

Jamie

Now that is very sensible. No doubt the bean counters need it to have a passenger benefit, but in the real world that is a massive enabler for electric freight.

 

Jo

[St. Simon]

38 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

There is also mention in the latest Modern Railways of funding for  development work on a scheme to electrify the missing link between Acton Yard and Acton Wells on the North London Line.  It is apparently to allow easy reversals of trains when the line into Paddington is closed  when the major blockades take place at Old OaCommon but wil also be able to be used by freight.

 

Jamie

Hi,

 

Yes, that’s correct, we’ve been sort of involved with it as part of our (NRDD Readings) work on Old Oak Common Station.

 

However, it is worth noting that only the Up & Down Poplar lines are to be wired, none of Acton Yard is to be wired (at least at the moment).

 

Simon

[jamie92208]

7 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

Yes, that’s correct, we’ve been sort of involved with it as part of our (NRDD Readings) work on Old Oak Common Station.

 

However, it is worth noting that only the Up & Down Poplar lines are to be wired, none of Acton Yard is to be wired (at least at the moment).

 

Simon

Thanks Simon, I guess that the main thing is to provide an electrified connection between the GWML and the rest if the UK electrified network so that through freight can run.

 

Jamiei

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

There is also mention in the latest Modern Railways of funding for  development work on a scheme to electrify the missing link between Acton Yard and Acton Wells on the North London Line.  It is apparently to allow easy reversals of trains when the line into Paddington is closed  when the major blockades take place at Old OaCommon but wil also be able to be used by freight.

 

Jamie

I hope that somebody has movred the great big gas main that stopped it going ahead last time it was in an electrification scheme.

 

What hacks me off about a lot of this airy-fairy nonsense is the complete absence of any sort of practicality in the thinking.  A small example - back to HS2 naive engneering - is why are they going to close the GWML to do a couple of slews?  Come then to the list in that paper and having dropped the critical link of Phase 2A from HS2 - and looking to quickly trash the ability to ever do it - they totally ignore the impact and instead come up with minor local transport ideas in the north.  Surely keeping a principal main line artery such as the WCML open by enabling a reduction of traffic on it which facilitates engineering work is of greater national importance than some local transport scheme in Bradford?

 

Alas - dare I say it - a load of airy-fairy 'promises' and 'coulds' are meaningless compared with the practicalities they are ignoring and stink more of politicking rather than commonsense.  And just how much of it will ever happen?  As ever I'm afraid half baked 'decisions', and glitzy 'promises' coming from the mouths of politicians (and they're all as bad as each other) leave me wondering just where our country is going.   Yet again 'sensible investment' for very good reasons is replaced by words and - in the event - probably little else.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Thanks Simon, I guess that the main thing is to provide an electrified connection between the GWML and the rest if the UK electrified network so that through freight can run.

 

Jamiei

The original idea was to provide for a St Pancras to Heathrow link plus stock transfers.  St Pancras to  Heathri ow was ruled out on cost grounds as well as practicalities as it would have requireda flying junction at Acton in order to accommodate teh frequency of services.

 

Most of the freight nowadays cr going via the Poplar Branch at Acton is heading south and would require dual voltage locos or possibly tri-voltage to accommodate 'trolley wiring  (but that would e interfere with grab unloading.  The trains to/from the GW/LTS area would need a lot more electrification of lines around London in order to convert them to electric traction and a small amount more would be needed even for the very few moves from Action to Willesden or the MML.

 

And would the freight operators play ball anyway?

[rodent279]

It'll go down a storm with *@!£¥ ∆π€¥| readers and @& News viewers, and that's all that it needs to do.

[Grovenor]

Given that the 337 billion being saved only starts sometime after 2030 when they would have needed to borrow it to fund  section 2A, where are they going to find the money for all these replacement schemes that Rishi says will be done quicker, and some papers were reporting as a blitz on transport fixes? If the money is readily available they could have accelerated HS2 instead of deferring/cancelling it.

[Mike_Walker]

3 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Given that the £37 billion being saved only starts sometime after 2030 when they would have needed to borrow it to fund  section 2A, where are they going to find the money for all these replacement schemes that Rishi says will be done quicker, and some papers were reporting as a blitz on transport fixes? If the money is readily available they could have accelerated HS2 instead of deferring/cancelling it.

And there you have it.  None of these proposals are likely to come to fruition - even the Government's own documentation says "could" rather than "will be" - it's simply a desperate last ditch attempt to buy votes and remain power.  Thankfully, the people have now seen through them.