Cambrian and GWR 0 Gauge layout -Revised Plans

[ChrisN]

Don,

I look forward to your new plan.  It will certainly make for interesting working.

 

My understanding of through coaches were that they were coaches on a train going somewhere else, ie., Aberystwyth coach on a train through Birmingham to the north and therefore would be mentioned especially in the timetable but whole trains on a timetabled route might not be.

[The Stationmaster]

I need to dig out a public book from the period (ish) which I think I have somewhere to look at through coaches but as Chris has said I would doubt there were through trains pre the Grouping except possibly things like excursions and in any case they would have an engine change.

 

I was a bit puzzled by your comment about successive trains in the same direction as they would be limited by the signalling and the availability of crossing loops elsewhere.  I don't know about the Cambrian side but on the GWR side the block signalling arrangements in 1891 were very basic although they no doubt changed in the early 20th century (but without adding block sections I suspect).  I'll see what I can dig out on that as it will immediately impose timetabling restrictions.

 

Maybe the Cambrian timetable tells you what there was on the Cambrian side towards Barmouth Jcn?

[Donw]

By sucessive trains I mean two departures in one direction with no arrival in between. They could be an hour apart but the stock for two trains must be held at the station. The space at the station is limited. If I have read things correctly a Cambrian Pass arrives at 9:40 a GWR one at 9:52 and a second GWr one at 10:15 before the through coaches arrive at 10:40 ( some of the timings have been adjusted as things varied a little between 1891 and 1904 but I think the sequence is correct)  this means there is the stock for three trains plus three engines are being stored at the station when the up train with the through coaches arrives. I am trying to check whether I have made any errors. E|ven full size this would have bee a lot at the station

 

Regarding the term through coaches. I think the term through particularly applies on the GWR side. The coaches from London would not have formed a train on their own but would have worked forward attached to a  suitable train probably headed for Chester or Birkenhead. At Ruabon these coaches would have been attached to stock forming a Ruabon to Dolgelley service.

However from various comments in the books I have read it is possible that the GWR train worked through to Barmouth otherwise the coaches would have been transfered from one train to another in Dolgelly. What photos I have seen do seem to show a lot of GWR stock but it has not been possible to identify all the vehicles.

 

I had hope the WTT might say through coaches to be detached or attached but no such luck.

Don

 

Edit there is no record of engines having worked through although the GWR threatened to do so if the Cambrian could not meet it needs.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Donw

[The Stationmaster]

On the 1891 book the GW passenger trains balance - in simplistic terms the stock working balances, ignoring the Mail trains (self balancing probably but just as likely vans attached to various trains over the day?).

 

So GWR passenger train balance - simplistically -

 

06.43 arrival forms 07.45 departure

 

08.40 arrival forms 10,30 departure

 

11.55 arrival forms 15.40 departure

 

17.02 arrival forms 19.10 departure

[Donw]

On the 1891 book the GW passenger trains balance - in simplistic terms the stock working balances, ignoring the Mail trains (self balancing probably but just as likely vans attached to various trains over the day?).

 

So GWR passenger train balance - simplistically -

 

06.43 arrival forms 07.45 departure

 

08.40 arrival forms 10,30 departure

 

11.55 arrival forms 15.40 departure

 

17.02 arrival forms 19.10 departure

 

Thnaks Mike your original notes on the down trains included this line

GWR Light engine arr 15.20  Runs only when the 13.00 ex Dolgelly has an assistant engine

 

In 1904 there is a departure at 1:10 following an  arrival from Barmouth at q:07 this is shown as providing through coaches to London Paddington and Birmingham Snow Hill. It seems odd for the assitant engine's return to be indicated refering to a departure not in the table for 1891.

The 10:30 departure probably equivalent to the 10:45 in 1904 which is shown as including through coaches from Barmouth to Birningham and Manchester.

Silmilarly the 15:40 probably equates to the 15:20 in 1904 which includes through coaches from Pwllheli and Barmouth for London and Birmingham

 

In the other direction the 15:20, 17:18 and 18:25 arrivals (1904 times) are shown as conveying through coaches. Which appears to suggest an additional train.

 

The times for 1904 midafternoon show an Up train with through coaches arriving at 3:10. The forward train for the through coaches departs at 3:20 when the down train also conveying through coaches arrives itself departing at 3:25. It would taake some smart working to change the engines on both probably using spare engines. If you had to also transfer the Up through coaches onto a GWR additional train to depart as the Down train arrives and then add the through coaches to the Cambrian set in that station layout with no signals for departure from the wrong platform would need every one on their toes. It would be so much easier if the trains were all GW coaches working between Ruabon and Barmouth.

It would be nice to find photographic evidence but very difficult as I assume that excusion trains would run through with just an engine change so being sure whther a photo was a normal working or a special would be very difficult.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

There's a difference in there between 13.00 and 13.20 Don - either it's my typo or possibly a TT typo (they happened or more likely me not reading the very small print clearly enough).  Anyway the train concerned is the 13.20 goods which has an assistant engine if required. 

 

The tight times between the Cambrian and GW Up trains is difficult to explain but I do wonder if that bay siding was long enough to hold a passenger train?  Equally there could be a very simple explanation - the GW departure was always delayed!

[Donw]

Mike a point of interest here. Assume say a Brake Compo is used as a through coach, I assume when it goes forward there will be no GWR employee with it so unloading of items in the Brake compartment will be done by the receiving ralway. I assume the Brake part would carry mostly bulky luggage items belonging to the passengers (bicycles, prams, large trunks etc.) who would apply to the local porters for assistance. If this is the case there would be another brake attached to the train going forward manned by the Cambrian (or other railway) Guard and that brake would be used to control the train.

It really makes little difference to modelling except Iif a placed a Guard looking out of the window in a brack compo it might look wrong if used as a through coach.

 

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Mike a point of interest here. Assume say a Brake Compo is used as a through coach, I assume when it goes forward there will be no GWR employee with it so unloading of items in the Brake compartment will be done by the receiving ralway. I assume the Brake part would carry mostly bulky luggage items belonging to the passengers (bicycles, prams, large trunks etc.) who would apply to the local porters for assistance. If this is the case there would be another brake attached to the train going forward manned by the Cambrian (or other railway) Guard and that brake would be used to control the train.

It really makes little difference to modelling except Iif a placed a Guard looking out of the window in a brack compo it might look wrong if used as a through coach.

 

Don

I've done a bit of delving and it does look as if the Cambrian used other companies' vehicles as passenger train brakevans - neither of the trains involved in the Abermule collision included a Cambrian brakevan, in fact the only brakevans in both trains were LNWR vehicles! (and the only GWR vehicle was a composite coach, not a brake vehicle).  The big question of course is whether such arrangements also prevailed in the early years of the 20th century and I don't have an answer to that  And don't forget in the period you're modelling many passenger trains had two Guards although whether the Cambrian went in for such expense I really don't know.

[Andrew P]

Hi Don, just catching up still and looking through loads of threads, will have a proper read later.

 

All the best mate.

[Donw]

I've done a bit of delving and it does look as if the Cambrian used other companies' vehicles as passenger train brakevans - neither of the trains involved in the Abermule collision included a Cambrian brakevan, in fact the only brakevans in both trains were LNWR vehicles! (and the only GWR vehicle was a composite coach, not a brake vehicle).  The big question of course is whether such arrangements also prevailed in the early years of the 20th century and I don't have an answer to that  And don't forget in the period you're modelling many passenger trains had two Guards although whether the Cambrian went in for such expense I really don't know.

 

That is very interesting Mike. I doubt I will get definite answers to these things on the other hand it would be difficult for anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

Something I came across while looking through my books was the loop at Garneddwen was put in during 1913. It was the summit of the line and would have allowed assiting engines to run back 18 mins was allowed for the return journey to Dolgelley

I have been thinking more how the work could be carried out at Dolgelley and have realised the Ticket platform might be part of the answer. I assume that once the line clear to approach dolgelly is given any shunting movement would not be allowed which involved the down line. However once the train had arrived and stopped at the ticket platform such moves could be allowed while the guard is checking the tickets. This would allow the Cambrian engine to run round the up train and draw off any Cambrian coaches into the goods yard ( they should be minus any passengers at that stage.  The GWR down train could then pull into the down platform. Either some extra GW coaches could have been added before then or a spare engine could draw some off the rear of the Down train and add them to the through coaches in the Up platform to form the up train. Once the Up train departs the GWR loco can run round the down train pull off any extra GW coaches leaving the Through coaches. The cambian loco can then back the Cambrian coaches from the goods yard onto the through coaches ready to depart. No doubt once that was away the Stationmaster and staff could relax a little. Probably put the kettle on!

Don

[The Stationmaster]

That is very interesting Mike. I doubt I will get definite answers to these things on the other hand it would be difficult for anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

Something I came across while looking through my books was the loop at Garneddwen was put in during 1913. It was the summit of the line and would have allowed assiting engines to run back 18 mins was allowed for the return journey to Dolgelley

I have been thinking more how the work could be carried out at Dolgelley and have realised the Ticket platform might be part of the answer. I assume that once the line clear to approach dolgelly is given any shunting movement would not be allowed which involved the down line. However once the train had arrived and stopped at the ticket platform such moves could be allowed while the guard is checking the tickets. This would allow the Cambrian engine to run round the up train and draw off any Cambrian coaches into the goods yard ( they should be minus any passengers at that stage.  The GWR down train could then pull into the down platform. Either some extra GW coaches could have been added before then or a spare engine could draw some off the rear of the Down train and add them to the through coaches in the Up platform to form the up train. Once the Up train departs the GWR loco can run round the down train pull off any extra GW coaches leaving the Through coaches. The cambian loco can then back the Cambrian coaches from the goods yard onto the through coaches ready to depart. No doubt once that was away the Stationmaster and staff could relax a little. Probably put the kettle on!

Don

I'm fairly sure the ticket platform played some sort of part in the working Don.  All the GW passenger trains (except possibly the Mail?) would have stopped there for tickets to be checked/collected which made time available.  What we don't know - and would be critical to the way things were done - was the way acceptances worked between the two 'boxes and what sort of wrong direction moves were, or weren't, permitted and this is the sort of information needed to reach some definitive answers.

 

But then nobody else knows either so you have a degree of flexibility in that respect.

[Donw]

I knew there had been a piece in one of the issues of the Welsh Railway Archive, but a lot of things were still in boxes from the move. I have finally discovered the right issue and found it extremely useful. There is an Article by Harold Morgan on Cambrian through train workings in 1912.

Pertenant to Dolgelley are the following

 

10:10am ex Barmouth

GWR Milk Truck   PW-Padd

GW Brake Third   B-Man

GW Composite     B-Man

Cam Bk Comp      B-Padd

GW BK Third        PW-Padd

GW BK third         PW Padd

 

11:55am ex Barmouth

GW BK Third       PW-BHM

GW Composite    PW-BHM

GW BK Comp      PW-BHM

 

2:40pm ex Barmouth

GW Comp           B-Padd

GW Comp           B-BHM

 

 

1:55pm ex Ruabon

GW BK Comp    Padd-PW

GW Milk Truck   Padd-PW

GW BK Comp    BHM-PW FSO

GW BK Third     BHM-PW

GW Comp          BHM-PW

GW BK Third     BHM-PW

GW Comp          Man-B

GW BK Third     Man-B

 

3:00pm ex Ruabon

GW Milk Truck   Padd-PW

Cam Corr Comp  Padd-PW

GW Comp         Padd-B

GW Comp         BHM-B

 

8:40 ex Barmouth

GW BK Comp    B-BHM

 

Don

Edited November 16, 2014 by Donw

[Donw]

A couple of other notes from the article firstly a quote

'During the summer, GWR four and six wheeled piphons were worked to Pwllheli with milk traffic. Certain local sets of GWR four wheel stock worked to Barmouth whilst Cambrian coaches travelled to Paddington.

In the winter, a Cambrian set worked daily between Barmouth and Birkenhead'

 

Secondly a fotnote to the other details as follows

GWR sets worked to Barmouth via Dolgelley

3:15pm Birkenhead to Barmouth, return 7:50am Barmouth Birkenhead next day

9:45am Ruabon- Barmouth, return 8:40 ex Barmouth

both sets formed Bk, 3rd, Comp, Comp, Bk

 

also

7:47am Ruabon- Barmouth, 12:40 Barmouth-Birkenhead it ran with a second set to Dolgelley  which later formed the 1:15 Dolgelly-Barmouth returning the next day as 10:10 ex Barmouth

Both sets formed Bk3rd,3rd, 3rd, Comp, Full Bk

 

These could be the local 4 wheel sets referred to above  but the article did not give any more details.

 

These two items may well have been where I original gained the idea of GW trains working through to Barmouth with a Cambrian loco. Which aligns with other comments but none are conclusive.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

These posts are really useful.  I will have to sit down with these and the 1910 Bradshaw and see how they fit.  I will then go back to 1895 and see what fits there.  I will try and use GWR 4 or 6 wheelers as I am limited for space but I know the GWR introduced bogie coaches before the Cambrian. Still trains being too long for the station never worried the Cambrian so I should not worry either.

[Donw]

Chris the article includes details of through coaches via Welshpool, Wrexham, Afon Wen and Talyllyn as well as Dolgelley. Some interesting things such as a North Staffs composite running between Derby and Aberystwyth or  a mixture or Cambrian, Great Central, LNWR and GWR stock via Wrexham and Ellesmere.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

Joining the WRRC has been on my list of things to do for nearly 18 months.  I only think of it when I cannot do it. This  Wednesday hopefully.  Are back articles readily available?

 

Just sent the application form to work as my home printer is not working at present.

Edited November 16, 2014 by ChrisN

[Donw]

Reflecting on where we are I do feel rather lucky in a few weeks I have with the help of others acquired quite a lot of info. A Cambrian WTT details from a GWR WTT and some details of through coach times and formations.

True the details are not from the same year but infact that does not matter that much. At least I have enough information to give a fair representation of the station and its workings. The biggest problem is going to be squeezing it into the available space. More space is not practical if I extended the garage I would be no better off (besides I will run some 16mm live steam from the garage round part of the garden). I could sell off the 0 gauge stuff and go back to EM but suitable stock is not easily obtained for the period and I do like the 0 gauge. To do it in 2mm would probably be the answer but those small Cambrian locos would be hard to do and I think it would be a long time before I had enough stock. So I will stick with 0 gauge and do my best.

 

My thoughts are that if I can use 4 and 6 wheel stock for the local trains and bogie vehicles for the through coaches it will emphasise the difference. If I assume the season is either at the start or end of the summer season trains may be a bit shorter until the traffic builds up  possibly peaking in August. Anyway my thanks to all. In particular Stationmaster Mike who's knowledge of GW matters is most valuable.

 

If anyone does get inspired by this do remember post 1922 Dolgelley was a different place a bit of shunting some use of assisting engines but a lot quieter.  If you are inspired by the idea of the meeting of various companies I have always wondered about the propect of Carlisle 5 companies met there and there were through coaches I believe.

Don

[Donw]

Carlisle had seven companies:

G&SWR

CR

NBR

NER

MR

LNWR

M&CR

Even more variety and colour. Citidal is a bit large though, even in 2mm.

 

Seven enthusiasts one for each railway could build a group layout what a exhibition layout it could make. For me there was no GWR there. I did have some thoughts about Merthyr.

Don

[Donw]

Plus it has the wonderfully named Bog Junction.

 

Wonderful name for a layout with the nearby Bog Hall I presume.

 

Don

[Donw]

I looked at the plan I have and the up platform would seem to be about 340ft rather short for some of the trains, however that equates to 8ft in 7mm so with just a little compression I should be able to fit that in. I presume that the long trains would have the through coaches so on an up train there would be no one to get off unless in the wrong carriage. I suspect at Barmouth anyone intending to alight at Dolgelley would be directed to a local carriage. So they might not draw up to allow all the coaches to stand at a platform. Which might cause trouble for anyone getting on at Dolgelley for distant parts. So would they draw up twice (or more) to allow all coaches to stand at the platform.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

I looked at the plan I have and the up platform would seem to be about 340ft rather short for some of the trains, however that equates to 8ft in 7mm so with just a little compression I should be able to fit that in. I presume that the long trains would have the through coaches so on an up train there would be no one to get off unless in the wrong carriage. I suspect at Barmouth anyone intending to alight at Dolgelley would be directed to a local carriage. So they might not draw up to allow all the coaches to stand at a platform. Which might cause trouble for anyone getting on at Dolgelley for distant parts. So would they draw up twice (or more) to allow all coaches to stand at the platform.

Don

I suspect it all depends Don.  Depends on the need to get clear of the single line for a Down train being the most likely of those 'depends'.  But if there were no other 'depends' then they would probably have drawn the train forward - maybe even twice if needed - because presumably passengers also wanted to join, not just alight.

[Donw]

I suspect it all depends Don.  Depends on the need to get clear of the single line for a Down train being the most likely of those 'depends'.  But if there were no other 'depends' then they would probably have drawn the train forward - maybe even twice if needed - because presumably passengers also wanted to join, not just alight.

 

It would also appear that as there was no facing point lock they wouldn't be able to draw forward enough to clear the turnout and the down line and then set back to align the front coaches with the platform.

Don

[ChrisN]

Don,

Don't forget that August Bank holiday in those days was the first Monday in August so that late August early September may have had less traffic.  Also, in the seventies and eighties the Welsh Schools went back a week earlier than English ones.  I am not sure if this was true at the beginning of the Century though.  This is only important when it comes to young people on the platform and the type of vegetation/ flowers.

[The Stationmaster]

It would also appear that as there was no facing point lock they wouldn't be able to draw forward enough to clear the turnout and the down line and then set back to align the front coaches with the platform.

Don

I doubt if they worried too much about that Don  (although I equally doubt that they bothered to set-back, most likely stopped short and drew-up to platform the train in sections.  And there was of course still quite a lot of 6 wheel stock about at that time, six-wheeled passenger carrying vehicles weren't barred from inter-company working until much later than your time period (the ban was delayed by the war as it happened).

[Axel.Richardson]

Hi don,

I love the railway room. I myself have recently got into o gauge and have looked into where I could have a layout, however nowhere is suitable.

My attic has dreaded w shape trusses and is not long enough at only 15ft.

 

I really like your track plans, I hope you can fit all that you desire into the space.

 

I look forward to seeing final plans.