Ready-to-lay OO Track and Pointwork - moving towards production

[Pacific231G]

The correct size for UK heavy rail FB in 4mm scale is code 82. The prototype rail is 6.1/4" high. (FB-109, BS-110A, BS-113A sections).

Useful to know that Martin. That would be code 72 in H0 so code 75 is a tad too heavy but probably not enough to be visible.  How much of the network uses that section and how much would be in rather lighter track?

[martin_wynne]

How much of the network uses that section and how much would be in rather lighter track?

 

Almost none. Although there were lighter sections available, very little was used. This is because rail used for branch line and secondary duties is usually second-hand rail recovered from main running lines. Privately owned industrial sidings may be laid in lighter rail from new.

 

The Code 82 dimension applies to virtually all standard-gauge FB track laid in the BR period up to about 2000. Since then the UIC60 rail section has been adopted for new work, which has a height of 172mm. This scales to Code 89 rail in 4mm scale. Very little such rail will yet be found in yards, sidings, depots, goods lines, etc. -- i.e. the areas often favoured by modellers.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Pacific231G]

Oh no, not another new scale and gauge?

As if it wasn't enough with the current discrepancies and choice of gauges and scales.

When was this new OO announced?

 

 

.

I'm not sure whether it's 00 or OO.  Originally "no. 0" gauge was the continuation of the model engineering gauges 3,2,1 and French modellers who use it still refer to themselves as "Zeroistes". In principle "no. 00" gauge should follow the same sequence but even the Gauge 0 Guild don't seem entirely sure as different parts of their web site use both 0 and O even in their own name. OTOH the Double O Gauge Association seem entirely sure that it's not 00.  In  the 1920s Model Railway News always referred to 0 and 00, by about 1930 they were wobbling and by the mid 1930s were consistent in referring to O and OO.

 

Remember though that, having adopted HO from us, the rest of the world is entirely consistent and if it's HO it's 1:87.1 and probably American but if it's H0 it's probably European and 1:87 (and dead scale for 1435mm track using 16.5mm gauge).....errr except when it isn't. Loco Revue wandered into HO a few years ago but seem to have returned to the H0 straight and narrow.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Pacific231G

[hayfield]

There aint  market for mass produced OO gauge track or PECO or some other brave soul would have gone there already.......I like how my post #229 get lots of disagrees but no says why Im wrong...presumably cos Im right again ( No surprises there, of course)

 

Id love a whole system of OO scale track, specially that someone else paid to develop, but Id also love a lot of things that aint gonna happen, so like always  Iget on with what Im doing and not wonder and wherefore as to when the Good Fairy will appear to me

 

 

Scaleway (SMP) track has been around for over 40 years, C&L flexitrack must be 20 years old at least. Whilst not in the same volume as Peco they are both mass produced and 4mm. Sadly no ready built turnouts yet. 

[hayfield]

I haven't read the full thread but here are some of my opinions:

 

3. I would welcome proper British prototype 00 gauge track in RTR form. I don't mind tinkering with the locos/stock so if an RTR P4 option were available I would definitely consider it.

 

 

 

 

Sub39h

 

The Exactoscale turnout kits come prefabricated and are designed to be built a bit like the old Airfix model kits, a plp located into a hole. A friend bought and built one without any gauges, files etc. A lot easier than tinkering with locos. A great pity they are not made in 00 gauge and with nickelsilver rail, but that's being investigated.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not sure whether it's 00 or OO.  Originally "no. 0" gauge was the continuation of the model engineering gauges 3,2,1 and French modellers who use it still refer to themselves as "Zeroistes". In principle "no. 00" gauge should follow the same sequence but even the Gauge 0 Guild don't seem entirely sure as different parts of their web site use both 0 and O even in their own name. OTOH the Double O Gauge Association seem entirely sure that it's not 00.  In  the 1920s Model Railway News always referred to 0 and 00, by about 1930 they were wobbling and by the mid 1930s were consistent in referring to O and OO.

 

Remember though that, having adopted HO from us, the rest of the world is entirely consistent and if it's HO it's 1:87.1 and probably American but if it's H0 it's probably European and 1:87 (and dead scale for 1435mm track using 16.5mm gauge).....errr except when it isn't. Loco Revue wandered into HO a few years ago but seem to have returned to the H0 straight and narrow.

 

We happen to be using a font that clearly makes the distinction. Not all fonts are that clear between the letter O and the number 0.

 

But logically, you're right. It's H0 and 00.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I apologise for not going back over the 16 pages (so far) of this topic, but could someone post the cost of some typical Exactoscale 00 point kits, including what you get (parts etc,) for that price ?

 

 

 

.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Ron Ron Ron

[Joseph_Pestell]

I apologise for not going back over the 16 pages (so far) of this topic, but could someone post the cost of some typical Exactoscale 00 point kits, including what you get (parts etc,) for that price ?

 

 

 

.

 

It is in the thread somewhere. The ordinary turnout was IIRC £41. Everything needed including roller gauges.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I checked the C&L site this morning - £46 for B6 and B8 turnouts.  A little bit out of my comfort zone for a single turnout I'd have to assemble myself, with no guarantee I could make it work.

[Ron Ron Ron]

So rather an expensive option compared to even premium priced RTL?

[Pacific231G]

We happen to be using a font that clearly makes the distinction. Not all fonts are that clear between the letter O and the number 0.

 

But logically, you're right. It's H0 and 00.

Since when did logic have anything to do with it?  

I'd always thought that it was Hornby who pulled it towards OO with Dublo but MRN were using letters rather than numbers some years earlier.

You're right that some typefaces do have a pretty similar 0 and O but those used by Loco-Revue, MRN, the G0G/GOG and DOOGA were distinctive. I'd be surprised if MRN under Maskelyne's editorship didn't have a style guide: it was after all he who gave the world the name HO for its most popular scale and initiated the B.R.M.S.B.

[AJ427]

I checked the C&L site this morning - £46 for B6 and B8 turnouts.  A little bit out of my comfort zone for a single turnout I'd have to assemble myself, with no guarantee I could make it work.

 

 

So rather an expensive option compared to even premium priced RTL?

 

See my post #345 - it's only that price for the kit which includes some ready built parts that you can make yourself cheaply from rail.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Since when did logic have anything to do with it?

I'd always thought that it was Hornby who pulled it towards OO with Dublo but MRN were using letters rather than numbers some years earlier.

You're right that some typefaces do have a pretty similar 0 and O but those used by Loco-Revue, MRN, the G0G/GOG and DOOGA were distinctive. I'd be surprised if MRN under Maskelyne's editorship didn't have a style guide: it was after all he who gave the world the name HO for its most popular scale and initiated the B.R.M.S.B.

 

But, as you have pointed out, not all of the rest of the world accepted his "gift". I have certainly heard Germans calling it "halb-nul".

[Ron Ron Ron]

....and Spur-zero zero

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

See my post #345 - it's only that price for the kit which includes some ready built parts that you can make yourself cheaply from rail.

 

In other words, as close to ready-to-lay as it gets is £46/turnout.  Yes we could save money by making bits ourselves, but the thread title is 'ready-to-lay' and so as far as I've been able to find out, the nearest better looking than Peco is the Exactoscale turnout in a bag, and its £46 and we'd still have to assemble it ourselves.  I wonder what the cost would be if that turnout was available ready to lay?  Another £10? 

 

Peco's code 75 large radius electrofrog is £10.50 from eHattons.... 

 

Unless the price is at least in the ball park with Peco, is the cost a deal breaker?  My desired model of Thurso would cost me £105 in Peco turnouts, or £460 for Exactoscale (and I'd still have to assemble them).  I want better looking track, but am I prepared to pay that much more?  If it was £50/turnout to have something like Exactoscale ready to lay, would I fork out £500 just for the points?  

 

I'm not sure - I might, if they looked darn good and worked straight out of the box.  But it would be a big mental shift to accept turnouts at twice the price of a carriage, and half the price of a loco.

 

Could our ideal RTL points be made to sell at around the £15 mark for a B8?

[Pacific231G]

But, as you have pointed out, not all of the rest of the world accepted his "gift". I have certainly heard Germans calling it "halb-nul".

They accepted the gift from the Wimbedon MRC (or members of it) of the correct scale for the gauge and Maskelyne's "gift" of a name for it alright* but just weren't sure how to spell it! That's not really surprising when there was so much variation in use of O gauge and 0 gauge as well.

 

The French have always pronounced it in speech as "Acho" which Hornby adopted as the name for its H0 range- demi-zero would be a bit of a mouthful. Looking at adverts etc. in Loco Revues from the  1950s both H0 and HO were being used though I think by then that the European conferences of national model railway associations in the early 1950s that led to MOROP had settled on both H0 and on the scale of 1:87 (The Germans had argued for 1:80 and some French fiirms had been using 1:86) Much earlier the NMRA had adopted HO and 3.5mm/ft expressed as 1:87.1

Edited December 20, 2013 by Pacific231G

[hayfield]

I apologise for not going back over the 16 pages (so far) of this topic, but could someone post the cost of some typical Exactoscale 00 point kits, including what you get (parts etc,) for that price ?

 

 

 

.

 

I apologise for not going back over the 16 pages (so far) of this topic, but could someone post the cost of some typical Exactoscale 00 point kits, including what you get (parts etc,) for that price ?

 

 

 

.

 

 

Sadly Exactoscale kits are for P4 only and in steel track. The common crossing is ready built and cut to size as are all the other rails, just thread the chairs on to the rails and glue on to the locating pips.

 

The C&L turnouts has the common crossing and the switch rails built, but require cutting to length as do the other rails. The sleepers have to be stuck to a plan where as the Exactoscale sleepers are ready spaced.  http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_384_390_537 Kits priced from £49.  Please note these are super detailed kits not only because its in P4 but also all the special chairs are included.

 

Now a ready to lay turnout to this detail standard in 00 gauge would be well worth a premium payment

[Dungrange]

9. Price - probably not commercially viable unless the cost is not any more than Peco Code 75 + 20 per cent. I'd be willing to pay a bit more insofar as they would still work out cheaper that C&L's 'Turnout in a Bag', but I doubt the turnover would be sufficient to be viable unless the pricing were similar to what Peco offer.

 

To be fair to the C&L Turnout in a bag, most of the cost comes from the included pre-built common crossing (£16) and filed switch rails (£10.50). If you buy the components seperately both of these items can be made up from rail lengths by hand fairly quickly and for pennies. If you have the skill to do so.

 

I agree that C&L's turnout in a bag is not the cheapest way to build your own track, but it is the closest alternative to ready to lay, which is what this thread is about.  Reliable running is dependent on building the various components to the required tolerance and a pre-built common crossing makes it easier for a beginner (like myself) to consider taking that step from ready to lay to handbuilt and I see myself as the target market for a better ready to lay product.  Your emphasis on the "If" is therefore what is relevant, but it's perhaps also having the time and confidence to have a go, as well as the skill.

 

In other words, as close to ready-to-lay as it gets is £46/turnout.  Yes we could save money by making bits ourselves, but the thread title is 'ready-to-lay' and so as far as I've been able to find out, the nearest better looking than Peco is the Exactoscale turnout in a bag, and its £46 and we'd still have to assemble it ourselves.  I wonder what the cost would be if that turnout was available ready to lay?  Another £10? 

 

Peco's code 75 large radius electrofrog is £10.50 from eHattons.... 

 

Unless the price is at least in the ball park with Peco, is the cost a deal breaker?  My desired model of Thurso would cost me £105 in Peco turnouts, or £460 for Exactoscale (and I'd still have to assemble them).  I want better looking track, but am I prepared to pay that much more?  If it was £50/turnout to have something like Exactoscale ready to lay, would I fork out £500 just for the points?  

 

I'm not sure - I might, if they looked darn good and worked straight out of the box.  But it would be a big mental shift to accept turnouts at twice the price of a carriage, and half the price of a loco.

 

Could our ideal RTL points be made to sell at around the £15 mark for a B8?

 

I couldn't agree more.  This is the point that I was trying to make in my post #321.  I think that cost could well be a deal breaker.  If the cost of our 'ideal' ready to lay point is about the same price as a Peco point, I think it could sell quite well if marketed properly.  However, as the price differential increases, the number of modellers who would be willing to pay a premium for the 'better' product would be smaller.  A smaller market share and lower turnover would push up production costs per unit, which would in turn put more modellers off switching from Peco.  It would become a bit of a vicous circle.  Therefore, a discussion on cost is as important as a discussion on standards and how extensive the range should be.  There is no point in an enterprising manufacturer giving us what we want at £80 per point, if few of us defining what we want are actually willing to pay that much.

 

My suggestion of a target cost being Peco Code 75 plus 20 percent would imply a cost of around £13 based on the price that you quote from Hattons, which is not far off the £15 that you suggest.  As I indicated earlier, I personally would be willing to pay more, but that is on that basis that the C&L Turnout in Bag (as opposed to the Exactoscale P4 version) is £38 per turnout if you omit the roller gauges (see http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=346_375_377_378 and then go to checkout to get the price without roller gauges).  However, although I'd be willing to pay around £40 for a better ready to lay point, that is driven by the fact that I wont require many: probably just four points.  If I was looking to purchase ten or more, I suspect that I would be far more price sensitive.  As such, if an enterprising manufacturer can't provide us with the specification that we would like for say £15 (on Hattons) to £20 (RRP) for a B8, they probably shouldn't take the risk.  I certainly wouldn't if I was said manufacturer.

 

Regards

 

David

Edited December 20, 2013 by Dungrange

[Clive Mortimore]

I agree that C&L's turnout in a bag is not the cheapest way to build your own track, but it is the closest alternative to ready to lay, which is what this thread is about. 

 

Much edited

 

Regards

 

David

Hi David

 

Sorry but to say C&Ls turnout in a bag is the closest alternative to ready to lay is comparable with saying a MTK kit is the closest alternative to RTR locomotive to someone who does not have the skills to make their own kits.

 

I do agree with you that the point work needs to be of a competitive price to the ready to use points available today. This is a major specification for any prospective manufacturer needs to consider before flat bottom or bullhead rail.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Sadly Exactoscale kits are for P4 only and in steel track.....

 

Now they are mixed in with the C&L product line, is there a whole range of C&L turnouts, crossings and slips listed on their website, with Nickel Silver Rail?

 

C&L Exactoscale 00

[hayfield]

Ron

 

The C&L kits use nickelsilver rail. The Exactoscale kits use Steel rail as the process in creating the angles on the crossings and I think the switch rails uses a system that works on steel but not nickelsilver ( something like spark cutting ?). C&L's are ground 

[hayfield]

Mickey

 

Fully aware you know your stuff but others don't. The thread title states " Ready to lay 00 Track and point work " and I guess that quite a few who have requested 00 gauge 4mm scale turnouts use either SMP, C&L or Exactoscale ready to lay plain track. But from a lot of the replies others either are not aware or un-willing to use them and are quite happy to use H0 (3.5mm) scale plain track.

 

I has been said in this post that if Peco suffered a drop in sales by modellers switching from H0 track to 00 gauge track with 4 mm scale sleepers and spacing, then they may well be forced to enter this market. What surprises me is the contributors requesting 00 track but not using what is available now.

 

Turnouts / points is a totally different matter. The simple matter as  what a better looking  turnout looks like is a matter of personal opinion, some being happy with just the correct size and spacing of the sleepers, others would want finer flangeways, others like myself are also interested in the correct type of chairs, used in the correct places. We have not even covered the correct regional/age style of chair !!

 

Coming to the size of turnouts, very few have the space for large turnouts. For what is seen in track building circles as a very small radius turnout, namely an A5 has a (displacement) radius of 49". Now I remember buying a GEM turnout which had (for then) a large radius turnout of 36", am I correct in thinking that Formway had 24" & 36" radius turnouts?.

 

I for one would like to see a turnout using the correct size sleepers using the correct spacings, along with the correct chair detail (block,bridge, check, crossing etc chairs). As for size I guess small, medium and large. But I expect for commercial reasons a compromise on the crossing angles as Peco now use may have to be accepted.

 

A start along this line would be for as many modellers as possible to change to buying 00 gauge track. Better RTR locos, stock and buildings are now available, better trackwork should follow 

[hayfield]

Mickey

 

Thanks, lets hope it may inspire someone with CAD/Prototype printing abilities to do something. Or at least an easy to assemble (Airfix kit approach) kit of parts.

 

 

Not forgetting go out and buy 00 gauge track!!

Edited December 21, 2013 by hayfield

[Clive Mortimore]

Im agreeing with you John, trust me I am

 

But this thread is getting a bit like "oh i got no hands to make owt at all with so someone make it for me, or Ill cry - lots n lots"

Hi Mickey

 

I thought the purpose of this thread was to explore the needs of those who want better looking track in 00 who want a system not just yard lengths of plain track which they can lay and get something running pretty damn quick as they can with Tilling, Peco, Hornby, Shinohara etc. Not one where people have to make their own track. Those who wish to make their own track can carry on doing so but those who wish for a system of ready to lay OO or 00 or DoublO track that looks better than the H0 on offer at the moment cannot.

 

A RTR loco?

[Clive Mortimore]

Mickey

 

To someone who does not poess the skills etc. to make their own track a C&L, P4 track company or SMP or Exatacoscale point kit is as far way to what they want as a MTK kit is to a RTR loco. So to say "But this thread is getting a bit like "oh i got no hands to make owt at all with so someone make it for me, or Ill cry - lots n lots"" defeats the purpose of this thread.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Clive Mortimore