Ready-to-lay OO Track and Pointwork - moving towards production

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

Could our ideal RTL points be made to sell at around the £15 mark for a B8?

 

That depends on a number of factors relating both to manufacturing cost and method of distribution.

 

It will be difficult if one has to start from scratch using all new tooling - which is probably the case for BH. I think that one might be getting nearer to £20 retail.

 

If one can use existing metalwork (FB) and just change the sleepering, it should be reasonably easy to get down to that £15 mark or even less.

[Paul Cram]

Hi Mickey

 

I thought the purpose of this thread was to explore the needs of those who want better looking track in 00 who want a system not just yard lengths of plain track which they can lay and get something running pretty damn quick as they can with Tilling, Peco, Hornby, Shinohara etc. Not one where people have to make their own track. Those who wish to make their own track can carry on doing so but those who wish for a system of ready to lay OO or 00 or DoublO track that looks better than the H0 on offer at the moment cannot.

 

A RTR loco?

002a.png

That looks like e very large 0-4-0 to me.

[Clive Mortimore]

so does sticking pictures from things out of your Junk box.........

 

given that track of some sort is kinda pretty fundamental to any railway (or they are lorries and buses) and a lot of people seem unhappy with the fine product Peco make, it is hardly negative to point out that its not the hardest thing in the world to do a bit of filing and shaping.

Particularly if that gets you to where you wish to be rather than waiting for what may or may not happen one day perhaps

 

Hi Mickey

 

You have been making odd comments on this thread, so I take it you would have noticed that I am a modeller and I am not someone who shys away from making my own things. Now I have said that when I worked in a model shop I came across other people who liked model railways who did not have the skills that some others had. I am on their side despite being in "The I can do it myself camp". I will repeat, so to say "But this thread is getting a bit like "oh i got no hands to make owt at all with so someone make it for me, or Ill cry - lots n lots"" defeats the purpose of this thread.

 

Here are a few examples of what I have done because either I wanted to, or there was no ready to run/play/plonk available

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-some-drawings/?p=1255732

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-some-drawings/?p=1257823

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79416-ready-to-lay-oo-track-and-pointwork-some-drawings/?p=1260598

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79397-diesel-brake-tender/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67810-brisbane-roada-new-pig-lane/

 

If we all could make our own points some of the people making comments on here would not make any money out of those who cannot.

 

A small side note, The MTK class 40 is more accurate in shape than most of the RTR models that have been on sale over the years, but like a point kit needs to be made. 

[Clive Mortimore]

There is nothing wrong with the Tilling, Peco, Hornby, Shinohara etc. systems as H0, now it seems too much for some people to grasp that it would be nice if there were a compatible system in 00 which would improve the appearance of many future layouts.

 

Well done you ... one Gold Star on its way straight away and I believe a class 40 is something a bit like a longer 37?

 

 

Oddly I came to the same conculsion some time ago, D209 is a stretched Tig-ang 37.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I think someones been at the Christmas sauce a little early...

[Dungrange]

Hi David

 

Sorry but to say C&Ls turnout in a bag is the closest alternative to ready to lay is comparable with saying a MTK kit is the closest alternative to RTR locomotive to someone who does not have the skills to make their own kits.

 

I do agree with you that the point work needs to be of a competitive price to the ready to use points available today. This is a major specification for any prospective manufacturer needs to consider before flat bottom or bullhead rail.

Hi Clive,

 

I agree that C&L's Turnout in a Bag is a kit and not a 'Ready to Lay' product.  However, my comment was in response to the suggestion that buying the sleepers from C&L and making your own common crossing switchblades with a file was a cheaper alternative (which it is if you have the skills).  The Turnout in a Bag is effectively a halfway house between building your own pointwork from scratch and a Ready to Lay product, but as far as I am aware, it is the closest alternative to Ready to Lay if you don't want H0 sleeper spacing.  If you know of a closer Ready to Lay alternative, I'd like to know.

 

Regards

 

David

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi David

 

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss what 00 modellers needs were in relation to ready to lay track system in 00 for those who, do not have the skills or, do not wish to have the skills or, have the time to make their own or kits. Not to find alternatives for those who have the skills. There are enough threads about making your own turnouts and I would recommend all those who want to make there own track to search for these threads and read them, I learn't from them.

[Mike Storey]

Although the Peco track is code 100, and is not a direct comparison

I'd like to thank Ron Ron Ron for posting those pics

You do at least get some idea of the comparative geometry, the sleepers

and something that impressed me with Tillig track - the colour of the rail....

 

I had a sample of Tillig flexi track a few years back, and I was impressed with the brownish colour of the rail

Almost pre-weathered for you, and rather more natural in colour than nickel silver or steel

A bit of toning down the shiny appearance of the sides of the rail, with matt varnish

and I think it should look good

 

As a point of note. I went to the narrow gauge show at Shepton Mallet earlier this year

It was so good, I'll be going again BTW

 

I found several suppliers stocked different types of rail, which was also pre-coloured

There were a couple of different brown tones, and black

These only seemed to be available for narrow gauge rail types,

sadly not including code 75 or 83 - shame

 

I will watch with interest - if someone is willing to produce better OO pointwork....

... I'll buy some from you!

Good luck with the survey Joseph

 

Cheers

 

This doesn't seem to rhyme. Is it that New Age poetry stuff?

[Mike Storey]

If we want to get realistically prototypical about cost, in my final few years as a project director on Network Rail track enhancements and renewals, a single turnout would be budgetted at £0.25 million, but that included all the revised/new signalling, track circuit changes, etc, specific to that change. The signalling aspects were by far the most expensive part of that calculation, and the turnouts had become standardised catalogue items, delivered to site, almost ready to lay. The civils component of the turnout equated to around £80k to £100k. At the time, when calculating business cases for line enhancements, we would estimate a new 4 car EMU at around £10m full life cost (they use a rather larger figure now I believe). The initial capital cost has been hard to calculate these days, as almost all are sold on a mileage-availability long term deal, but let's say £5 million. On that basis, if one takes say the 4 CEP from Bachmann, as a keystone, a ready to lay point should cost 2.5% of the EMU, cost RRP £189 (??), so that a simple turnout should cost around £5. Whoops, that doesn't work does it, and I think we ordered somewhat fewer turnouts nationally each year than Peco make - I'll get my coat......

[Ron Ron Ron]

As usual when this topic is aired, rather than making any useful contribution to this thread, or being useful to the discussion, a number of people posting are doing nothing but attempting to subvert the very notion of decent RTL 00 track. Whether consciously or not.

 

If I may paraphrase Ravenser's views on this, posted on MRF a few months ago, whenever a thread about this topic gains momentum, the "disrupters" come out of the woodwork.

 

If you are happy to build your own track and turnouts, or if you prefer to do so, that's fine.

If you would like to encourage others to do likewise, that's fine too.

However, that's for another topic. As has been repeatedly said, this topic is not about building your own, but about RTL track.

May I kindly request that if you have no interest in RTL 00 track, could you please leave it to those who wish to make a positive contribution.

 

 

As an aside, I do have a view that if a better looking RTL track system was miraculously made available (note: I'm not saying it will appear), then for some people, the incentive to build there own, or to go to EM or P4, may evaporate.

In other words, a better looking RTL 00 track system, has the potential to damage the numbers of people getting involved with handbuilding, EM and possibly even P4.

I'm sure other people have thought about this and don't like the prospect?

You can sometimes read between the lines of some comments and get a "feeling" of where people "are coming from", so to speak.

 

 

.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

Putting the money up are you? I thought not

 

Dear oh dear !!!!!

[chris p bacon]

I'm in the process of changing from Peco 75 to Exactoscale, I know it's not RTL but it has the look I'm after, I posted this pic a couple of days ago on my layout thread

The plain track is simple enough but I've commisioned the pointwork from a professional builder (I think of him as another manufacturer, like Peco but better) cost ? think X4

 

I would of loved RTL pointwork but think that the complexity of the location I'm building could only account for maybe half.

 

[Jeff Smith]

As an aside, I do have a view that if a better looking RTL track system was miraculously made available (note: I'm not saying it will appear), then for some people, the incentive to build there own, or to go to EM or P4, may evaporate.

In other words, a better looking RTL 00 track system, has the potential to damage the numbers of people getting involved with EM and possibly even P4.

I'm sure other people have thought about this and don't like the prospect?

You can sometimes read between the lines of some comments and get a "feeling" of where people "are coming from", so to speak.

.

I tend to agree but it depends on the individuals' reasons for changing from 00. EM may just be about better looking track in terms of gauge whereas (and in my case) P4 is about gauge and wheels. If a great looking 00 track system were to magically be readily available tomorrow at comparative cost to Peco it would undoubtedly sway or delay some people from making a move, but not a lot I don't think.

[Richard Lee]

[snip]

As an aside, I do have a view that if a better looking RTL track system was miraculously made available (note: I'm not saying it will appear), then for some people, the incentive to build there own, or to go to EM or P4, may evaporate.

In other words, a better looking RTL 00 track system, has the potential to damage the numbers of people getting involved with EM and possibly even P4.

I'm sure other people have thought about this and don't like the prospect?

You can sometimes read between the lines of some comments and get a "feeling" of where people "are coming from", so to speak.

 

 

.

That is possible;  however, an alternative view is that that ready to lay OO track might wet appetites for better track and encourage some people to have a go at making their own.  I notice that some people who make track and encourage others to make their own  have been helpful and supportive.

[hayfield]

I realy think the message needs to go out to RTR manufacturers that a reasonable part of the hobby needs better track based on 4mm scale in 00 gauge

 

Firstly communication to them needs to be made both personally and in groups.

 

Secondly if they see a migration away from 00/H0 track to 4mm scale that might push them into action. So go out and buy what available and encourage your local model railway shop to stock it.

 

Finally some form of agreement as to what sizes are required and level of detail needs to be agreed. A B8 might be a nice thing to have but at 115" radius how many of these would sell?

 

Hopefully certain members will see this thread as pushing the topic forward.

[ThaneofFife]

Peco's code 75 large radius electrofrog is £10.50 from eHattons.... 

 

Unless the price is at least in the ball park with Peco, is the cost a deal breaker? 

 

I'm not sure - I might, if they looked darn good and worked straight out of the box.  But it would be a big mental shift to accept turnouts at twice the price of a carriage, and half the price of a loco.

 

Could our ideal RTL points be made to sell at around the £15 mark for a B8?

 

£15 sounds nice.  I would have thought that that price point is only going to be a goer if it came from Beer with mass production.

 

TBH I dont see a great deal of the "continual product improvement" the likes we have seen with other manufacturers from PECO - they dont really seem to have moved their products quality or range on much from when I was a lad helping my Dad with his N gauge layouts that had PECO track and lots of its wagons.  I think code 75 or the 83 Line ranges may not not have been around but as for actual changes to the track construction I dont think its been changed at all.  I can see the arguments for both sides for whether PECO would introduce a new range with better turnouts and improved sleeper sizes and spacing etc. but that aside it would seem to be one of the better solutions that most of us looking for improved RTL track and pointwork can hope for.   

 

 

If the cost of our 'ideal' ready to lay point is about the same price as a Peco point, I think it could sell quite well if marketed properly.  However, as the price differential increases, the number of modellers who would be willing to pay a premium for the 'better' product would be smaller. 

 

I am torn a little here because on other threads about the increasing cost of the models themselves we have an army of folk saying that the recent and expected future price increases are not an issue for them and that if you want the best quality you will pay for it then here we have what seems a contradiction of that line of thought - does trackwork not have the same parity as locos and stock?  I would say yes it does and posts in this thread support this view.  People are saying that for too long now they have had top quality RTR locos and stock and winge and moan about having to run it on poor quality/apperance 00 track.

 

Why do some feel comfortable paying top draw for top models at the same time as cursing those that moan about the price increases yet here the discussion on more than one occasion has suggested that a new RTL point/turnout for around £15 (my kind of price by the way if it can be done) we get comments like the above that hint at a smaller number of modellers who are willing to pay a premium for the better product.  Something doesnt add up there......so those that criticise the price increase on the models get panned yet those talking of better track dont want to pay the premiums (at least not on the evidence here so far with maybe a couple of exceptions).      

 

But this thread is getting a bit like "oh i got no hands to make owt at all with so someone make it for me, or Ill cry - lots n lots"

 

 

Well done you ... one Gold Star on its way straight away and I believe a class 40 is something a bit like a longer 37?

 

 

 

you should leave it alone if you cant handle it

 

I'm not sure Mickey is getting much enjoyment out of this discussion as the majority of his comments seem less about the thread titles aims but more about his wishes for others to use their hands and such like - the thread title wasnt "I have two hands and dont know what to do with them" - if it was then most of Mickeys advice might have been far more appropriate

I notice that some people who make track and encourage others to make their own  have been helpful and supportive.

To some degree I would agree with you.  Its a very fine line on RMWeb between being helpful and supportive and stuffing opinions down peoples throats which is where some threads end up going downhill.  Always tickles me to see that where a route is being sought in a thread there are some folk who want to bring nothing more to the table than negativity to those who wish to do their modelling differently just because it doesnt mirror their set ways. 

 

Do those here keen on a new solution think that maybe Bachmann might be interested because they certainly dont sit on their laurels like PECO seem to have done for years?  Could they continue to innovate and develop a new range of good 00 trackwork or would their train set trackwork "get in the way"?

Edited December 22, 2013 by ThaneofFife

[Joseph_Pestell]

But who is this all aimed at? It is all well and good saying this that an t'other but where does it go from here?

 

you making it?,is JP the OP hatching a plan? 

 

 

 Just seems like a lot of "ifs" so far and not even many "buts"...maybe hence my practivable sugesstions on what to do if no "OO track appears" this side of Wednesday winning a game

 

I know Wednesday are going through a rough patch at the moment. But I think they might just manage a win before we get some new OO track and pointwork.

[trisonic]

As someone posted an "undecipherable" to my post I've deleted it.

Good luck with your endeavor Joseph (you really do need it, in the nicest possible way)!

 

Best, Pete.

Edited December 22, 2013 by trisonic

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm in the process of changing from Peco 75 to Exactoscale, I know it's not RTL but it has the look I'm after, I posted this pic a couple of days ago on my layout thread

054.JPG

The plain track is simple enough but I've commisioned the pointwork from a professional builder (I think of him as another manufacturer, like Peco but better) cost ? think X4

 

I would of loved RTL pointwork but think that the complexity of the location I'm building could only account for maybe half.

 

I saw that you were "doing a Coachmann" on your track - courageous on a project of that size (Sandy GN/LNWR for any that don't know). Thanks for posting that pic on here as it does show very well the massive difference in appearance.

 

We all accept that many items of pointwork are specific to location and have to be made-to-measure. And that as you say comes expensive unless you have the time/skill/desire to do it yourself.

 

But for many simpler layouts, ready-to-lay trackwork to the sort of standard of the BH track in your pic really would be a step-change in the visual quality of layouts. After all, track is there all the time, even when trains are not running, so arguably rather more important to get that right than have the right number of rivets on the loco tender.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I tend to agree but it depends on the individuals' reasons for changing from 00. EM may just be about better looking track in terms of gauge whereas (and in my case) P4 is about gauge and wheels. If a great looking 00 track system were to magically be readily available tomorrow at comparative cost to Peco it would undoubtedly sway or delay some people from making a move, but not a lot I don't think.

 

It really could work either way. Some would be satisfied with better r-t-l track and not make the change. For others, it might well be a stepping stone that encourages them into taking more interest in trackwork and building their own. And once you do that, you may as well go EM or P4 - at least for diesel/electric modellers as those are easier to convert.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I realy think the message needs to go out to RTR manufacturers that a reasonable part of the hobby needs better track based on 4mm scale in 00 gauge

 

Firstly communication to them needs to be made both personally and in groups.

 

Secondly if they see a migration away from 00/H0 track to 4mm scale that might push them into action. So go out and buy what available and encourage your local model railway shop to stock it.

 

Finally some form of agreement as to what sizes are required and level of detail needs to be agreed. A B8 might be a nice thing to have but at 115" radius how many of these would sell?

 

Hopefully certain members will see this thread as pushing the topic forward.

 

Thanks. Very much the objective of the thread - but it needs more participants - is to achieve some consensus on what the "average modeller" would want. Your point about the B8, which is what we should be looking at for realism, is a good one. It is right for realism but is it too large for most people's layouts? Or would they compromise on the complexity of their layout design in order to accommodate more realistic trackwork?

[Jeff Smith]

But for many simpler layouts, ready-to-lay trackwork to the sort of standard of the BH track in your pic really would be a step-change in the visual quality of layouts. After all, track is there all the time, even when trains are not running, so arguably rather more important to get that right than have the right number of rivets on the loco tender.

This is a catch 22 situation in that H0 track without rolling stock looks reasonable because it is in proportion with itself. It's only when you put an 00 vehicle on it that it looks wrong. But part of that looking wrong is the narrower gauge. However, clever proportioning of sleeper width, length and spacing can help to hide this, even when there are no trains present.

[trisonic]

This is a catch 22 situation in that H0 track without rolling stock looks reasonable because it is in proportion with itself. It's only when you put an 00 vehicle on it that it looks wrong. But part of that looking wrong is the narrower gauge. However, clever proportioning of sleeper width, length and spacing can help to hide this, even when there are no trains present.

If you put time and effort into modelling trackwork then that can be achieved - which is I think is the point the point Gordon S. made a few pages ago and illustrated with Eastwood Town. It is all "doable" right now.

Alternatively you can wait years for a manufacturer who may  do it at a price.

 

Best, Pete.

[Jeff Smith]

I am straddling the fence on scale track topics as I am strictly P4, whatever it takes, on my UK outline but am happy to accept the On30 compromise of 2'6" track to represent anything from 2' to 3'............!!!

[gordon s]

Thanks Pete.  Yes, in terms of plain track it can be done now and with some care over laying, painting and ballasting, 00 track can be made to look reasonably acceptable, but you still have to make your own pointwork and there are many who don't have the skill, inclination or time to make their own, hence this latest thread.  

 

Over the years I have seen many threads on this subject and when this one came alive a few weeks back, I can't deny my first reaction was 'here we go again' but thanks to the various inputs from knowledgeable members of the forum, this one started to show some signs of going somewhere and perhaps overcoming the usual negative comments and actually moving forwards with a case to present to any potential manufacturer.  

 

My concern is that it is starting to go the same way as previous threads by getting bogged down in detail and the usual circular arguments.  In some ways inviting more posters to contribute will only muddy the waters further as you are never going to satisfy all the modellers with a semi universal product.  Eventually there comes a point ('scuse the pun) when you have to make your case and go with it.  The longer these things go on, the less likely anything will happen and perhaps this is why no one has yet accepted the challenge and offered a product that will be an improvement over what is currently available.

 

Even though I make my own, I would still support other modellers in their wish for an improved product, but these requests always seem to become bogged down in time, as there is no single answer.  Sooner or later someone will take a brave decision and offer a new product, but don't be at all surprised if it is met with negative comments from those where it fails to provide what they want or were expecting.  Whether the potential sales to even 50% of the possible market, which is already highly fragmented, will warrant the investment remains to be seen.

 

I can't believe for one moment an improved track system has not been discussed at Bachmann, Hornby, Peco et al, but we have yet to see one.  Perhaps we are realising why….

Edited December 22, 2013 by gordon s