Hornby 2014 - A fatal sting for retailers?

[sub39h]

i don't mind prices going up in line with inflation for example - prices will go up. but i don't see what Hornby have done to justify a 20% increase in the price of the new HST sets for example. even at £160 they were expensive and most liveries (from what I can tell) didn't sell. 

 

i've said it before - i think Hornby are pushing at what is sustainable. there are models I want and will buy at Hatton's slightly discounted prices, but I won't be buying a HST at nearly £200. I doubt many others will as well. I will wait until Hornby don't sell them and the price drops to something more realistic.

 

similarly with the Class 60. I want one, but considering I picked up my new triple grey one for £67 at a local toy fair (not including the £3 odd entry fee) I'm not about to spend over double for another one just a year later. it is a lovely model, but there are other things I'd rather buy at £140+ and sadly for Hornby they're unlikely to come in a red box. 

[orford]

"In some respects the end of deep discounting was already coming, the writing has been on that wall for a while now but it is unfortunate that in possibly aiming to deal with that Hornby are potentially  also hitting the model shops which are still the backbone of our hobby."

 

Is it not true that many local model shops have already been deeply hit by the big discounters and box-shiters, with whom they cannot possibly hope to compete on price?

 

Allow this to continue ad-infinitum and we will eventually have the same situation as with the likes of Tesco..........with independent petrol stations closing right. left and centre, corner shops closing in their hundreds and heaven knows who else closing down - as a direct result.  Allow this to continue and in a few years time, the likes of Hattons and a few others will be the only sources of supply left...which cannot possibly be a good thing for the modeller.

 

Maybe - just maybe, Hornby are actually doing the local model shops a big favour here by reducing the ability of the discounters to pile it high and sell it cheap....expecially via internet sales, where overheads are much lower, thus allowing even greater discounts to be offered. Maybe, just maybe, this is actually rather good for the local hobby shop in the longer term.

 

From a customer point of view, I still maintain that the standard of models nowadays compared to the ugly lumps of plastic and/or whitemetal that we had only a few years ago, makes today's prices as a proportion of average income MUCH cheaper than they ever were. Coming back to OO as I did a couple of years ago after a long time in 'O' (specifically because of the huge upping of the quality in OO), I really do feel that an awful lot of OO gauge modellers simply do not realise the sheer quality of what they are getting nowadays - for what they are paying. You can buy 15-20 very high-detail OO locos for the cost of just one in 'O'.

 

As for hobby 'budgets', well yes, of course everyone's budget is different, but I for one would much rather have a total of say, 10 locos to today's high precision standards, than 50 to yesterdays relatively crude standards, for approximately the same total outlay (which also by default represents the same total income for the supplier).

 

Let's face it - we all have FAR too many locos anyway.  I have 12 on my layout, so prototypically proportionally, I should also have around 250 coaches and perhaps a thousand wagons.  In fact I have 13 coaches and around 45 wagons!   ........but I digress.

 

I really do believe however that this move by Hornby will prove to be a darned good thing in the longer term so far as your local model shop is concerned. Granted there may be a transition period which will be felt by the local retailers but longer term, yes I believe it will be a good thing. 

[Iain Popplewell]

It seems to me that at the moment we as modellers have reached a watershed as regards the super detailed models at bargain prices we have grown to expect.Whether the "supply chain" problems in China prove a temporary or " game changing" problem only time will tell.But should it prove that modellers have to actually start making or adapting  models to produce the locomotives/models they require I for one don't think it will be the end of the world as far as the hobby goes.

 

As it stands I think it's far too early to draw any conclusions as to what might or might not happen.I'm sure that whatever might happen the hobby will survive.

[Mike Storey]

"In some respects the end of deep discounting was already coming, the writing has been on that wall for a while now but it is unfortunate that in possibly aiming to deal with that Hornby are potentially  also hitting the model shops which are still the backbone of our hobby."

 

Is it not true that many local model shops have already been deeply hit by the big discounters and box-shiters, with whom they cannot possibly hope to compete on price?

 

Allow this to continue ad-infinitum and we will eventually have the same situation as with the likes of Tesco..........with independent petrol stations closing right. left and centre, corner shops closing in their hundreds and heaven knows who else closing down - as a direct result.  Allow this to continue and in a few years time, the likes of Hattons and a few others will be the only sources of supply left...which cannot possibly be a good thing for the modeller.

 

Maybe - just maybe, Hornby are actually doing the local model shops a big favour here by reducing the ability of the discounters to pile it high and sell it cheap....expecially via internet sales, where overheads are much lower, thus allowing even greater discounts to be offered. Maybe, just maybe, this is actually rather good for the local hobby shop in the longer term.

 

From a customer point of view, I still maintain that the standard of models nowadays compared to the ugly lumps of plastic and/or whitemetal that we had only a few years ago, makes today's prices as a proportion of average income MUCH cheaper than they ever were. Coming back to OO as I did a couple of years ago after a long time in 'O' (specifically because of the huge upping of the quality in OO), I really do feel that an awful lot of OO gauge modellers simply do not realise the sheer quality of what they are getting nowadays - for what they are paying. You can buy 15-20 very high-detail OO locos for the cost of just one in 'O'.

 

As for hobby 'budgets', well yes, of course everyone's budget is different, but I for one would much rather have a total of say, 10 locos to today's high precision standards, than 50 to yesterdays relatively crude standards, for approximately the same total outlay (which also by default represents the same total income for the supplier).

 

Let's face it - we all have FAR too many locos anyway.  I have 12 on my layout, so prototypically proportionally, I should also have around 250 coaches and perhaps a thousand wagons.  In fact I have 13 coaches and around 45 wagons!   ........but I digress.

 

I really do believe however that this move by Hornby will prove to be a darned good thing in the longer term so far as your local model shop is concerned. Granted there may be a transition period which will be felt by the local retailers but longer term, yes I believe it will be a good thing. 

 

I agree that is a possibility, but only if the box-shifters don't get lower trade prices from Hornby than the independents. There is clear evidence above that they have been doing so.

[andyman7]

i don't mind prices going up in line with inflation for example - prices will go up. but i don't see what Hornby have done to justify a 20% increase in the price of the new HST sets for example. even at £160 they were expensive and most liveries (from what I can tell) didn't sell. 

It's not what Hornby have done, it's increases in the prices that their (Chinese) suppliers charge. It has nothing to do with UK inflation! We shall have to see what the market will bear...!

[Retro_man]

"Maybe - just maybe, Hornby are actually doing the local model shops a big favour here by reducing the ability of the discounters to pile it high and sell it cheap...."

 

If the local hobby shops needed the old trade discount of X to pay their bills then giving them 1/2*X is not doing them a favour if the box shifters can survive on 1/10*X.

[Swifty11]

There has been a number of price increases, it's a shame as I used to be able to save up any money I got and I could buy 2 models a year by myself, now it's 1. The Colas 56087 looks tempting but at £147 (off the top of my head) even a Hattons that's £120! I purchased my L/E 47798 for less than that! This economy sound will help the market I think. Even Hornby railroad models aren't that cheap. One thing I am a bit worried about is by upping prices we may be pricing young hobbyists out of the market

[Stevelewis]

It  remains  to  be  seen  though what  the  other   main  manufacturers do ( if  anything) with  their pricing policies,................  fortunately  Hornby  are not  the  only  mass  market UK outline manufacturer.

[JSpencer]

All I can say is, I,m glad I brought 4 terriers when they were £35 each, 3 king Arthur's when they were £70 each, 2 Q1s, 3 T9s and a (Bachmann) Deltic when they were £60 each.

 

The new range is nice but we are hitting kit loco prices now.

 

To put it in perspective you can nearly get 2 Bachmann C class for one Hornby 700. Like the 2-Bil was originally equal to the 2-EPB in price, this years and now somewhat more expensive.

 

The range is good but remains to be seen if the price will hit sales. I,ll get one but I cannot see myself ordering batches of 3 like I did in the past.

[Guest]

Despite that great range that has been announced, I do feel that most of it is dangerously over priced! Also, it has been spotted that they have numbered the 'Duchess of Sutherland' wrong as they have numbered it as 46223, when it should be 46233! I hope these aren't early signs for a repeat of last year!

[sub39h]

It's not what Hornby have done, it's increases in the prices that their (Chinese) suppliers charge. It has nothing to do with UK inflation! We shall have to see what the market will bear...!

 

then it's quite simple - Hornby need to find new manufacturers. I don't think profit is a naughty word, but they have to take responsibility for their bad choices rather than trying to pass the damage onto their customers. this isn't just bitterness on my part, but the fact that if they don't sell their models at all then they are worse off than if they made a lower profit than before. as I already mentioned I can't see the Class 60 or HST packs being massive sellers at anywhere near the RRP which is ultimately going to be a problem, and charging £120 for a RailRoad item (which is meant to be the budget range) shows just how bonkers Hornby's pricing strategy presently is. they already played a large hand in the demise of ModelZone with their ludicrous pricing structure. it doesn't look like they've learned their lesson. 

[Unknown Warrior]

I think maybe the era of buying lots of locos may be coming to an end. Certainly I am only placing one pre-order from the new releases: Caerphilly Castle as opposed to the five from last year's Catalogue, four of which have yet to arrive! I think I will be a lot more selective in future. We have got used to bargain prices and have got greedy. Now we will cut back I am sure. One good thing is that most of the locos I really want have now been produced and I am sure that purchases would have fallen back anyway.

[Fenman]

 Like the 2-Bil was originally equal to the 2-EPB in price, this years and now somewhat more expensive.

 

 

2013 2EPB RRP £119.50.

 

2014 2BIL RRP £130.50.

 

2014 2EPB RRP - we'll find out in March July.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: just remembered Bachmann have put their annual announcement back a few months.

[Free At Last]

Didn't Hornby reduce some of their 2013 prices a short time after the initial annoucement.

[JSpencer]

Thinking about it, I already own 2 C class with another on order.

 

When I worked for the Signalbox (this was back when Trevor Tailor owned it not model zone) , I can remember him telling Hornby that they had to decide if they wanted to be a manufacturer or retailer. And he used box shifting might to make the point.

 

Last time I went into WHSmiths, it was not like it used to be. The quality of books on offer was poor ( in fact the one in Paris is more as I remember Smiths used to be). I think they have too many branches to sell trains.

[Unknown Warrior]

I would not bank on Bachmann delaying their price rise until the summer. I think it will come through in March as usual. I do hope I am wrong.

[Mike at C&M]

Didn't Hornby reduce some of their 2013 prices a short time after the initial annoucement.

They reduced the price of some of their wagons, such as the SPV and Fish Vans, but it was not a wide spread reduction.

[Redkiterail]

Hornby as a PLC has to show a strong financial position to its shareholders who have investment that are at risk of going if the company feel from grace. China as a manufacture base is being in a number of ways. One higher living cost, second their native currency increasing in strength weakling exports. shortage of skilled labour which has increase wages that are still working at the factories. Shipping across the globe has not gone back to the heydays of the early 00s. in relation to trade prices if it levels the financial field for larger shops and small independent shops that will in the short term help the hobby. with the use of concessions which could have there own promotional offers I hope the new trade prices allow concessions after discount to trade on a fairly level market place. 

 

In the short term prices will go up and some cases will move due to the market conditions of labour, shipping and materials. Horny has a lot of investment with new factories that take more than 2 years to come up to standard and speed with requirements.

 

Do shops stock with short term trends or long term market requirements for example do we need 10 2bils or just 4 2bils  flood the market at release but don't get any further sales in the short term or be happy with 2 sales a year.

[RJS1977]

All more to price the "Dad and  Kids" out of the hobby... :-(

[JSpencer]

2013 2EPB RRP £119.50.

 

2014 2BIL RRP £130.50.

 

2014 2EPB RRP - we'll find out in March July.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: just remembered Bachmann have put their annual announcement back a few months.

You to remember the margin is reduced in Hornby,s RRP.

 

Both the EPB and BIL sell for around £90 in 2013 (well some EPBs are even at £70). However the 2014 BIL versions are being sold by the big box shifters for £120!

 

That is an increase of 1/3rd. I cannot see Bachmann following that....

[Venator]

Didn't take long for the Hornby bashing to begin. 

 

In terms of discount, my local retailer sells at RRP and says that what makes it hard is when the big players in the market slash their prices down (presumably because they get a discount for ordering 50+ of an item rather than 5 - 10). Then everybody perceives poor value from their local modelshop when up against Hattons, Rails etc.

 

That's going off what my local modelshop said when I discussed it with them so please don't bite my head off if you know or think differently. 

 

If you don't like the prices Hornby have quoted then don't buy their products! It would be prudent to wait and see what Bachmann's 2014 price structure is like before doing the usual "we love Bachmann, hate Hornby" tirades which are so boring. 

[nicspics]

hi. I am in the photographic trade, and for a few years N***n do not issue rrps for their cameras. The pricelist consists of trade price to which we have to add vat and profit. We have to decide the rrp we are going to use, this is after the cost price to us is more than internet box shifters! Buy from them add a bit on and hey presto happy customer. I am not saying it is easy or fair, but it is still a way to get income from customers who prefer personal service etc.

Nick

[Paul Cram]

i do find it amazing that a few days ago people were bemoaning the lack of detail and design clever and saying they were prepared to pay a premium  for detail.Within the course of a day everything is now too expensive. Presumably all those models not yet tooled will now revert to design clever as it is clear people aren't prepared to pay for detail.

[JSpencer]

Didn't take long for the Hornby bashing to begin.

 

In terms of discount, my local retailer sells at RRP and says that what makes it hard is when the big players in the market slash their prices down (presumably because they get a discount for ordering 50+ of an item rather than 5 - 10). Then everybody perceives poor value from their local modelshop when up against Hattons, Rails etc.

 

That's going off what my local modelshop said when I discussed it with them so please don't bite my head off if you know or think differently.

 

If you don't like the prices Hornby have quoted then don't buy their products! It would be prudent to wait and see what Bachmann's 2014 price structure is like before doing the usual "we love Bachmann, hate Hornby" tirades which are so boring.

 

It is not really, love Bachmann, hate Hornby. It's Bachmann, all new class 40, super fine detail, complex electronics suite, special buttons to switch on or off directional lights for £90 (maybe £105 in 2014) vs Hornby, class 50 re-edition for £140. For the price of a class 60 you can get 2 (in some cases 3) modern detailed class 37s. That is quite a gap.

 

I do like the new TTS sound, if they could sell it without the loco....

[Gerald Henriksen]

then it's quite simple - Hornby need to find new manufacturers. I don't think profit is a naughty word, but they have to take responsibility for their bad choices rather than trying to pass the damage onto their customers. this isn't just bitterness on my part, but the fact that if they don't sell their models at all then they are worse off than if they made a lower profit than before

 

Well, given the small size of the model railway market there isn't exactly a line of people wanting to enter the business of making the models, Chinese or otherwise.

 

It, for the most part if not all, is not Hornby passing damage on to their customers.  Costs in China are rising quickly and it is something all the hobby companies are facing everywhere.

 

Hornby, Athearn, Atlas, etc.. and even Bachmann are being squeezed between rapidly increasing costs and the perceived (real or otherwise) limit of what their customers are willing to pay.

 

In the US Exactrail stopped selling to hobby shops and went to selling everything on their own website in an effort to keep prices to the hobbyist down by eliminating the retailer discount from the equation.

 

Others have continued to increase prices, not because they are greedy, but because they have no other options.  And I will point out to those who claim it is time to move production somewhere cheaper, if it could be done it would have been started by now.  The other options are either more expensive, or don't have the infrastructure needed - its not just cheap labour but all the supporting services that a manufacturer rely on that simply don't (yet?) exist elsewhere.