Signalling - How and Where?

[model-trains]

Hi everyone

I am building a new model train layout in 00. I am installing dcc control using Hornby RailMaster software.

Looking ahead slightly, I intend to use light signalling with dcc I have the following questions...

Trying to keep things as near real as possible how many signals should I install. I don't mean how many in total but look at it from the point of signal clutter. A signal would be placed before a point to indicate stop or clear down the main line or down the branch line.

Also what about trains coming the opposite way where a loco on the main line has been allowed to continue on the branch line a signal is required to stop this loco.

What is the best way to consider the number and position of signals?

[The Stationmaster]

1. Start with a track plan and a rough idea of the size of your layout,

2. Spell out the sort of area and period you are modelling

 

Post the details on here and we'll see what sort of information and help you need.

[PaulRhB]

As Mike said a plan is the best way to start but also tell us what type of trains you'll be running. Basically signals control the required movements rather than simply protecting points. Everything is split into 'signal sections' which generally only have one train in at a time. There are however all sorts of exceptions and several ways of achieving the same thing depending on company, period and what type of line it is, (goods or passenger).

Certain areas like yards don't have any signalling as they are controlled by a shunter who tells drivers exactly what to do because it's a confined space. You still need signals controlling the exit and entrance to the yard though. Signalboxes cover the bigger distances and generally out on the line they are spaced depending on line speed and density of traffic. High speed lines generally have bigger signal sections but they get shorter in urban areas and especially around stations. Around stations you'll have signals to enter or leave a platform and there may be extra signals or 'route indicators' if there is a choice of destinations. You'll also see subsidiary signals that are used for shunting or 'calling on' (to a train if the platform is occupied by another part of that train) which tell the driver to go cautiously as the line is only clear as far as they can see and there may be another train ahead.

The principles are actually simple but a wide variety of systems were brought together at nationalisation and several still exist.

[brian777999]

1. Would it be safe to say that most model railways are too small to have distant signals ie. just stick with home signals ?

 

2. For the same reason, if using coloured light signals then use only 2 aspect lights ?

[kevinlms]

1. Would it be safe to say that most model railways are too small to have distant signals ie. just stick with home signals ?

 

2. For the same reason, if using coloured light signals then use only 2 aspect lights ?

1/ Most likely as distance signals are well in the rear. But its nowhere as simple as that. Your (advanced) starter could have a distant below if the next signal box is not far away.

 

2/ No, because the yellow signal could show the state of the next (imagined) signal, i.e. at red. With every 3 or 4 aspect signal, its also a distant signal.

 

As has frequently been suggested here, give a diagram with location & period and information about your workings and usually some one will make some recommendations.

[model-trains]

1. Start with a track plan and a rough idea of the size of your layout,

2. Spell out the sort of area and period you are modelling

 

Post the details on here and we'll see what sort of information and help you need.

Hi

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

I will add a track plan hopefully later today or tomorrow time allowing. The layout is being built as we speak, I have aimed at including as much as I can in the space I have, to have locos running on different circuits whilst also including a bit of shunting.

 

Nothing is big, so no long rakes of carriages, etc just stick to small but include as much as I can to get the enjoyment from it.

 

The trouble with small layouts, many of us will have this problem, is that points and signals etc are closer together than we would like, hence the reason for my concern of signal clutter.

[model-trains]

get it in the railway ways of cornall  and we can pin ii till iti s sorted

Hi

 

Sorry not sure what you are saying here?

[model-trains]

oh and happy new year

 

 

 no need to do to it in Kernwek ere  

 

Happy New Year to you also, and to all model railway enthusiasts. 

[model-trains]

As Mike said a plan is the best way to start but also tell us what type of trains you'll be running. Basically signals control the required movements rather than simply protecting points. Everything is split into 'signal sections' which generally only have one train in at a time. There are however all sorts of exceptions and several ways of achieving the same thing depending on company, period and what type of line it is, (goods or passenger).

Certain areas like yards don't have any signalling as they are controlled by a shunter who tells drivers exactly what to do because it's a confined space. You still need signals controlling the exit and entrance to the yard though. Signalboxes cover the bigger distances and generally out on the line they are spaced depending on line speed and density of traffic. High speed lines generally have bigger signal sections but they get shorter in urban areas and especially around stations. Around stations you'll have signals to enter or leave a platform and there may be extra signals or 'route indicators' if there is a choice of destinations. You'll also see subsidiary signals that are used for shunting or 'calling on' (to a train if the platform is occupied by another part of that train) which tell the driver to go cautiously as the line is only clear as far as they can see and there may be another train ahead.

The principles are actually simple but a wide variety of systems were brought together at nationalisation and several still exist.

 

Many thanks for this reply. It is crammed will excellent advice.

 

I was looking at goods yards (not just exits) so this is fantastic and removes much of the clutter already.

 

Zones between signals was part of my consideration but in all honesty that is where I am at this stage... considering the options. Especially as I would consider loco detection as the layout comes together.

 

My initial thoughts are:

- a signal before a point branch with stop then go in the direction the points are set.

- a signal when leaving a station

- a signal when entering and leaving a set of sidings (I was including more but your help as reduced the clutter here)

 

I am new to the hobby, 3 months ago I didn't know what a DCC Bus was, my last train set was 45 years ago and it was in the early stages before my first marriage broke up and before that was 58 years ago as a kid, 3 rail Hornby/Triang.

 

I am also disabled, can walk very short distances and rely on a power chair to get about so my period knowledge and other items (getting to the tracks and even on trains) are restricted. If I need anything lifting my wife has to do it but, it won't stop me enjoying me trains as I cannot fish as much now.

 

I have gone straight in with DCC control as I am very computer addicted. DCC although not for everyone for a multitude of reasons it is for me and I can see so many advantages and so many doors still to open. (If only manufacturers will allow them without to many restrictions on forced to use costly hardware)

[model-trains]

1. Would it be safe to say that most model railways are too small to have distant signals ie. just stick with home signals ?

 

2. For the same reason, if using coloured light signals then use only 2 aspect lights ?

 

Hi

 

I agree brian777999, most people have restricted space and have to make do with what they have, having said that unless it is a brief case it is amazing what can be put into a small space.

 

I haven't the room for high speed locos, I would be bored with a small shunting yard or shelf, hopefully I have something in the middle that will allow me short distances between stations or additional loops to lengthen the journey but also have small sidings to do a bit of shunting. As mentioned in another reply, there are no long rakes of rolling stock just shorter lengths but the mind will do the rest with the help of DCC control, loco detection eventually and so many other things.

[model-trains]

1. Start with a track plan and a rough idea of the size of your layout,

2. Spell out the sort of area and period you are modelling

 

Post the details on here and we'll see what sort of information and help you need.

 

How do I upload a couple of images?

[model-trains]

How do I upload a couple of images?

 

Hi

 

I have uploaded the images, fingers crossed.

 

 

Here are the details of the layout I am working on

 

And here is the Hornby RailMaster Schematic layout

 

The layout is build on 9mm ply on a 3x1 frame.

On top of this is glued a sheet of 50mm cavity wall insulation board

The basic layout is at this level and the foam is cut back to form gradients and lower levels for river, lake, a road, car park to station, small industrial area and a small housing area.

There is an outer rail which them raises 75mm from the foam level (3" in a run of 140"), a gradual incline. from the points all track on the top loop runs at the same level. As the rail loops round on it's return it will run across a suspension bridge at this point 5" above the plywood.

 

Where am I with it to date...

The DCC Bus is in and a lighting bus is also prepared.

The foam is laid and cut out for the river with bridges laid ready for iron sides to be added.

The bottom level of track and points are laid.

The DCC droppers are being completed as I write.

The de-coders for the points are being programmed as I write.

 

By weekend all the bottom level track will be complete.

The foam will then be cut downwards and shaped, flat at plywood level for the car park and industrial site. Gradual drop down for the housing on a hill (2") but with the road going slightly up from the car park then down under a bridge as it leaves the layout.

But I might break off to add the LED lights to the buffer stops and the realistic water to the river once the lake is prepared.

 

I am constantly looking forward, I will add light signals once the scenery is in place on the lower level and whilst I build the gradient finally getting to the suspension bridge.  I also want to consider all other options, loco detection, zoning areas, points and signal control, etc, etc on the way and welcome members comments and suggestions.

 

Hopefully the images attached will work. The light signals, proposed, are shown on the RailMaster scheme screen grab with small direction arrows added.

 

Please feel free to comment good or bad, future ideas, suggestions, etc, etc.  

 

Happy New Year

[The Stationmaster]

That is going to be difficult to signal without totally overwhelming the whole thing so I am going to be very unusual in suggesting the best thing to do would be to ignore a lot of the signals because they would be very close together and there would be so many of them.

 

What I think the best thing to do would be to create a good impression of the signalling by doing some of it fairly prototypically (in so far as you can) and probably leaving the rest to imagination or - at best using dummy signals (Kinghtwing do some very good looking non-working colour lights).  If you like this approach then you need to decide which area is going to be 'properly looking' signalled.  Does that approach appeal and where would visible working signals be best do you think?

[model-trains]

That is going to be difficult to signal without totally overwhelming the whole thing so I am going to be very unusual in suggesting the best thing to do would be to ignore a lot of the signals because they would be very close together and there would be so many of them.

 

What I think the best thing to do would be to create a good impression of the signalling by doing some of it fairly prototypically (in so far as you can) and probably leaving the rest to imagination or - at best using dummy signals (Kinghtwing do some very good looking non-working colour lights).  If you like this approach then you need to decide which area is going to be 'properly looking' signalled.  Does that approach appeal and where would visible working signals be best do you think?

 

Hi The Stationmaster

 

I am not ready for the signals yet but, like to consider them now so I can plan and allow for wiring when landscaping.

 

This will probably help, everything is controlled from the river estuary, the south east corner as we look at it. Therefore other than in the dark, not many light signals will be seen on the north west corner and only one on the returning raised loop.

 

Dummy lights on the directly unseen locations would probably make sense, I will take a look at the one mentioned shortly. Thank you.

 

I am also aware there are Modelscene dummy light signals and switch box for 00. I guess it depends which light signal I go for as to which dummy best matches it.  I know TrainTronics do rail traffic signal lighting with decoder installed but I am still looking at the options.

[model-trains]

That is going to be difficult to signal without totally overwhelming the whole thing so

 

That was my concern over signal clutter. Forgetting sidings lights except exits and working from the view point/control point is a major consideration also.

[RJS1977]

Just looking at the plan I'd suggest you reconsider the point on the low level next to the green word "Banking" in the top right corner. Not only does this put a point halfway along a platform which makes the station both awkward to work and signal, having the right hand point so soon after a sharp left hand bend is likely to lead to derailments. Much better if possible to replace the last part of the bend with a left hand point where the word "banking" is so that trains going round the "bypass" (I think "Avoiding line" is the term you mean!) carry straight on and trains going into the station turn left (hope you can visualise what I mean!).

 

Starting from "Windymere" each platform would need a signal at the end of it to signal a clear route on to the main line. There would also be  a signal on the main line opposite Settell platform that would go to red when trains are entering/leaving the terminus to prevent trains on the main line from swiping them.

 

Assuming my slight redesign of Clapton is made then there should be a signal at each end of Clapton platform (possibly a second one at the left hand end if the line behind the platform is a bay platform). The signal at the right hand end of Clapton platform would have two route indicator heads - one for going into the terminus and one for going into Settell - if neither is on then the route is set for the Avoiding Line.

 

Settell station should have four signals - one on each end of each side of the platform, with the one on the left on the "Main line" side having a route indicator head corresponding to the crossover to the outer loop.

 

On the top level, there should be a signal with route indicator on approaching the reversing loop (to indicate whether the loop was to be taken clockwise or A/C, and a signal on each line approaching the point from the "other" side (i.e, from the perspective of a train about to leave the loop).

 

I make that 12 in all!

 

Yard exit signals are probably easiest represented by "Stop and obtain permission" signs.

[model-trains]

Just looking at the plan I'd suggest you reconsider the point on the low level next to the green word "Banking" in the top right corner. Not only does this put a point halfway along a platform which makes the station both awkward to work and signal, having the right hand point so soon after a sharp left hand bend is likely to lead to derailments. Much better if possible to replace the last part of the bend with a left hand point where the word "banking" is so that trains going round the "bypass" (I think "Avoiding line" is the term you mean!) carry straight on and trains going into the station turn left (hope you can visualise what I mean!).

 

Starting from "Windymere" each platform would need a signal at the end of it to signal a clear route on to the main line. There would also be  a signal on the main line opposite Settell platform that would go to red when trains are entering/leaving the terminus to prevent trains on the main line from swiping them.

 

Assuming my slight redesign of Clapton is made then there should be a signal at each end of Clapton platform (possibly a second one at the left hand end if the line behind the platform is a bay platform). The signal at the right hand end of Clapton platform would have two route indicator heads - one for going into the terminus and one for going into Settell - if neither is on then the route is set for the Avoiding Line.

 

Settell station should have four signals - one on each end of each side of the platform, with the one on the left on the "Main line" side having a route indicator head corresponding to the crossover to the outer loop.

 

On the top level, there should be a signal with route indicator on approaching the reversing loop (to indicate whether the loop was to be taken clockwise or A/C, and a signal on each line approaching the point from the "other" side (i.e, from the perspective of a train about to leave the loop).

 

I make that 12 in all!

 

Yard exit signals are probably easiest represented by "Stop and obtain permission" signs.

Thanks for your comments RJS, the last piece or rail to complete tomorrow (excluding the raised section) would be the line avoiding Clapton Jnt Station line. It is the section I need as a bye pass but, also one I was not totally happy with. I was spending to much time considering the bridge over the line below and tunnel under the higher loop behind the retaining wall. You having brought this to my attention has made me think, probably the best here would be to add a curved point before station and have a more gradual run to both lines, the station and the bye-pass line. It also puts the point outside, away from the station.

 

I will re-read your other comments tomorrow, some of the signal types I am unsure of at this stage.

 

I will also reprint the track plan and mark on the signals to get a better feel of things.

 

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.

[PaulRhB]

Ok heres an idea for a simplified signalling plan. I've removed a load of details you added to make it less cluttered.

Signals with route indicators are available as kits Eckon or the same ones assembled as Berko signals, should be able to find them from many modelshops. There are also DCC ready options from other manufacturers but you'll pay the extra for the included electronics.

 

Signal 1 is on a gantry to hang it over the correct side of the line.

Signal 2 would only show a yellow, (not green), if the route was set into either platform as the next Signal, (the bufferstops), is always Red. It would also have a subsidary, (like a groundsignal), in reality to set the route into the sidings but I left it off for simplicity.

Signals 3 & 4 are ground signals - the thick black lines I added by them would really be catch points protecting the main line. Peco do them or you can add fake ones with some scrap rail.

 

[model-trains]

Ok heres an idea for a simplified signalling plan. I've removed a load of details you added to make it less cluttered.

Signals with route indicators are available as kits Eckon or the same ones assembled as Berko signals, should be able to find them from many modelshops. There are also DCC ready options from other manufacturers but you'll pay the extra for the included electronics.

 

Signal 1 is on a gantry to hang it over the correct side of the line.

Signal 2 would only show a yellow, (not green), if the route was set into either platform as the next Signal, (the bufferstops), is always Red. It would also have a subsidary, (like a groundsignal), in reality to set the route into the sidings but I left it off for simplicity.

Signals 3 & 4 are ground signals - the thick black lines I added by them would really be catch points protecting the main line. Peco do them or you can add fake ones with some scrap rail.

 

55.JPG

 

Hi PaulRhB thank you for the image and your suggestions.

 

Looking at Windymere station in the middle (east). I am aware the lights will not be seen from my control point, south east, bottom right but, I am of a mind these are important and reflections from loco/carriages will show the lights. I feel exiting stations is important and part of the running of the system.

 

Clapton station (north) on the other hand would be seen from my control point and I do not see a suggestion for lights exiting station 2, or the sidings which would be seen from the controller position.  The signal on Clapton station east side, would this be better further to the east of the station to include the sidings exits bearing in mind there is another point in the distance as it enters the tunnel.

 

Settell station (south) is covered to the west but not to set off from the east, these could be dummy signals with backs to the controller.

 

The signal proposed on the suspension bridge I feel probably better a little further north so the loco and carriages are all seen at that 'view point' over the bridge.

 

I understand the feather. Signalling generally, correct me if I am wrong, Red and Green are local Stop/Go signals and Yellow is a distance signal (proceed with caution?)

 

I am not aware of the 1/4 circle signal with 2 red and 1 white light though?

 

My messages are always discussion comments based on suggestions and are not criticism in any way, I am grateful for everyone's help.

[model-trains]

Hi PaulRhB thank you for the image and your suggestions.

 

Looking at Windymere station in the middle (east). I am aware the lights will not be seen from my control point, south east, bottom right but, I am of a mind these are important and reflections from loco/carriages will show the lights. I feel exiting stations is important and part of the running of the system.

 

Clapton station (north) on the other hand would be seen from my control point and I do not see a suggestion for lights exiting station 2, or the sidings which would be seen from the controller position.  The signal on Clapton station east side, would this be better further to the east of the station to include the sidings exits bearing in mind there is another point in the distance as it enters the tunnel.

 

Settell station (south) is covered to the west but not to set off from the east, these could be dummy signals with backs to the controller.

 

The signal proposed on the suspension bridge I feel probably better a little further north so the loco and carriages are all seen at that 'view point' over the bridge.

 

I understand the feather. Signalling generally, correct me if I am wrong, Red and Green are local Stop/Go signals and Yellow is a distance signal (proceed with caution?)

 

I am not aware of the 1/4 circle signal with 2 red and 1 white light though?

 

My messages are always discussion comments based on suggestions and are not criticism in any way, I am grateful for everyone's help.

 

Correction...

 

Looking at Windymere station in the middle (east).

It should read...

Looking at Windymere station in the middle (west).

[PaulRhB]

.

I understand the feather. Signalling generally, correct me if I am wrong, Red and Green are local Stop/Go signals and Yellow is a distance signal (proceed with caution?)

Yellow is caution but not necessarily instantly means expect to stop at the next signal which depending on line speed can be some distance.

 

.

I am not aware of the 1/4 circle signal with 2 red and 1 white light though?

It's a ground signal, or subsidiary, used to control entrances to sidings where the line is only clear as far as you can see. Also used to 'call on' to attach to another train if placed below a main aspect. The older version is a horizontal red and white for stop or two whites at 45° for proceed.

The modern version has two whites at 45° for proceed.

[model-trains]

Yellow is caution but not necessarily instantly means expect to stop at the next signal which depending on line speed can be some distance.

 

It's a ground signal, or subsidiary, used to control entrances to sidings where the line is only clear as far as you can see. Also used to 'call on' to attach to another train if placed below a main aspect. The older version is two horizontal reds for stop or a red and white at 45° for proceed.

The modern version has two whites at 45° for proceed.

 

Thanks PaulRhB

 

I have not seen any of the ground signals as you describe for DCC model train layouts? From a visual point of view possibly the standard ones may look better on the layout. Is there a website that has these?

 

Any comments or further suggestions regarding Clapton Station signalling?East of the station is probably covered as the engine driver would be at the end of the station and see the signals at the points/junction at quarter past. What about exit west though. If the signal was moved beyond the end of the station it would be close to the branch line to station 2 and the sidings but would be looking for stop/go from the station and towards the branch in the distance. I say distance but with model trains distance is closer than we would possibly like.

 

Would this signal be better as a three aspect with route (feather) indicator?

 

All comments welcome, thank you.

 

 

 

 

[Grovenor]

The older version is two horizontal reds for stop or a red and white at 45° for proceed.

The modern version has two whites at 45° for proceed.

Afraid not, should read, "The older version is a red and white horizontally for stop or two whites at 45° for proceed. (The bottom right hand white is called the pivot light and is always lit).

The modern version has two whites at 45° for proceed and two reds horizontally for stop."

Keith

PS. Not stated in the explanation of yellow above is that there should always be a yellow signal in between a green and a red in mutltiple aspect signalling.

I would suggest specifying a single direction of travel in the return loop, avoiding the need for a feather on the entry and needing only one loop exit signal.

[PaulRhB]

Eckon & Berko offer the earlier red and white version but you'd need to figure out dcc wiring yourself. Try looking at traintronics and absolute aspects ranges they might have a dcc version ?

[model-trains]

Eckon & Berko offer the earlier red and white version but you'd need to figure out dcc wiring yourself. Try looking at traintronics and absolute aspects ranges they might have a dcc version ?

TrainTronics have a good range but don't seem to have the ground versions. Overhead signals on gantries or free standing may be best.

 

AbsolteAspects do have the ground ones but although there is a uk contact on the site it is Usa. There are no uk suppliers listed or prices and it doesn't say they are dcc.