Scalefour North 2014, April 12th/13th

[skipepsi]

Went along good weather and my old school how could I not go? Went around several times and finally found Croft with help from Steve!  I enjoyed having plenty of space and no crowding of MrsB there were some very polite and well mannered people around. I must admit there were not many people there, we arrived about 11.15 and left about 2.00 and although the car park looked full the exhibition wasn't at all. We spent more than intended but I doubt any long distance traders were covering their costs today.It was good to see a lot of pregrouping stock but I agree it was lacking a round one, a couple of class 20 on a MGR and an HST or two + DMUs/sprinters/pacers. I think Brighton Road was deceptive it was a very well detailed layout. 

[Captain Kernow]

....this sort of ill feeling detracts from an otherwise excellent event. Would the organisers please ensure that there are no grounds for similar accusations next year.

 

Dave 

I remember talking to John Armstrong (aka 'Metropolitan' on here), when he took over the management of the Bring & Buy stall at the main Scaleforum event (still in Leatherhead at the time). John confirmed that there was one individual (I think he may have been a trader, not sure/can't recall if he was a trader at Scaleforum itself or just there as a punter but traded elsewhere), and he had had some kind of long-standing 'arrangement' to hoover up all the 'good stuff' before the show opened, and would then sell it on at his leisure after the show.

 

To his credit, John was absolutely against this kind of practice, and to my knowledge, put a stop to it at the main Scaleforum 'then and there'.

[skipepsi]

I wonder if an auction might bring in more cash for widows and orphans or the infirm/aged and would be seen to be entirely free of bias?

[Axlebox]

Really good show, no D&S kits Iain? Probably because 5 of them were in my bag...

Had a play with Croft Yard, I had to, Porcy should have been but he was nattering. Thought my eyes were going, turns out the coupling hook was rubbish!

 

Thanks Paul...and your right Porcy's coupling hook was rubbish...I should know, I made it for him and have no idea how he used it...sadly it is no more as it appears to have been savaged by a pair if pliers...and if he wants a new one he'll have to make his own...

[clecklewyke]

I've been home in time to have a bit of nosh, a glass of wine and a catch up with my family's news after a super show.

 

Thank you to all the organisers who did a splendid job.

 

Thank you to my two partners who kept cheerful even when two locos failed and a strange short this afternoon stopped the down line running.

 

Thank you to the visitors with whom we had lots of amusing, informative and enjoyable conversations (and who voted us into second place). And my apologies for not always paying them full attention when I was trying to work out what to do next - operating a railway to timetable with full block working is no sinecure!

 

Thank you to all the exhibitors who were full of helpful comments ("I see your alarm worked today"), gentle advice and genuine, resourceful assistance when it was needed.

 

Thank you to the caterers who were overwhelmed by the numbers they had to serve. The exhibition had budgeted for 350 visitors but 450 turned up on the Saturday. So there were queues and the food ran out. Today it was fine - much quieter and the food was really good.

 

A few comments and answers to questions in earlier posts (I did did try "multiquote" but just cannot get the hang of it, so here goes...)

 

I heard from an authoritative source that Brighton Road is to be dismantled after the show. I find this amazing - Clecklewyke was started in the 1990s and is still nothing like finished. How do people work so fast and how can they bear to get rid of something that has been such a part of their lives?

 

I cannot comment on the Bring and Buy situation other than to say that one of those on the stand told me that certainly the intention was not to allow queue jumping. I really don't know what the answer is to this perennial problem (or is it just a perceived problem?). I only know that my friend Steve Griffiths obtained some beautifully-made box vans with sprung buffers and superb counter-balanced AJ couplings for less than the cost of the original Parkside kits.

 

Regarding the layout which seemed to have real running problems, this was only the second time it had been erected in its entirety, so little real testing had been possible. I thing everyone will agree that the locos and rolling stock - all scratch built models of little-known Victorian prototypes, and unique to the builder - are superb. I am sure that with more experience of exhibiting the problems will be ironed out.

 

Tony, there certainly were trains longer than 6 6-wheelers. Our Bradford-Liverpool expresses consisted of 6 bogies, including a restaurant car. Unfortunately we had to pull them with a Fowler 4F because Gormley Junction's Black Five had failed (and even Mike Ainsworth could not resuscitate it). When the other "bobbies" weren't looking it regularly exceeded the 15 mph limit across the crumbling Mill Gill viaduct. But if you want an impressive P4 roundy-roundy - wait for Dewsbury GN to reappear. That is really something!

 

And Clecklewyke. The people in town call it "cleckulwike" whereas those "up the hill", who think they know better, wrongly assume a French connection and pronounce it " Cleck - le- week".

 

Ponces!

 

Here's to next year, when my railway will have seven swans a-swimming and six geese a-flying ...

 

Ian

[bluebottle]

One last one from me...

this is why I couldn't get many shots of Flintfield........and thats when there wasn't too many around there

 

S4N2014 041.JPG

 

D'you see that chap in profile left of centre in your photo, Mickey? The one with the white hair cut very short, wearing a washed-out black jacket? If you'd tapped me on the shoulder and asked politely (as I'm sure you would), I'd have given you an assist in approaching the excellent Flintfield more closely ...

 

I've picked out a few more snaps which don't look too much like your own, to give folks some alternative views.

 

CLECKLEWYKE                    

 

ALLT-Y-GRABAN ROAD             

 

CROFT DEPOT                    

 

 

[Iain Popplewell]

So that's you Gordon! the illustrious Bluebottle.Funny, I always pictured you wearing a school cap rather than  washed out black trendy gear.

You should have joined me for a drink in the College pub,(see earlier post.) we could have had a good chin-wag.

The offer still stands for next year and the offer extends to Mickey of course.

Hope to see you both next year.

 

                                                                                                                                                                               Iain the Friendly.(not the avenger one)

[gr.king]

Suppose the Bring and Buy had been set up in the dining hall rather than the main show hall (or in an area divided off from the main exhibits), and suppose half an hour had been set aside before main show opening time during which keen "paying guests" as well as traders and exhibitors could all have initial access to the B & B, via a SINGLE queue, and suppose that during that initial period the buying was limited to "x" items per person/per visit to the stall. Would that not make it somewhat fairer to all concerned, preventing profiteers from masquerading as true modellers in order to buy up mountains of stuff for re-sale or as a speculative "investment".

[Jol Wilkinson]

Suppose Wizard of the Moor hadn't posted that photo on 7 April (post #6) then I doubt we would be having this discussion. It would be like any other year at S4N, S4um, ExpoEM, etc. when it is just a question of luck if you see the item you want.

 

I've been to those shows for many years assisting for both days on a particular trade stand and had never bought anything, because when I did get the opportunity to get to the B&B there wasn't anything I was interested in. I don't know what had been there and already sold, so I didn't get any sense of disappointment. Someone put a Unimat 3 on the B&B on Sunday which sold in about ten minutes (I know the vendor who told me he thought he must have under priced it as it sold so quickly). How many people who went on Saturday would have been interested in it and, until I mentioned it here were blissfully unaware that someone else got a bargain they might have liked.

 

The only real point of discussion here is whether anyone should be limited in the amount they are permitted to buy. Clearly anyone buying a large quantity is more likely to be buying to trade it, rather than for their own modelling requirements. Do you limit an individuals purchases to say a maximum of five items or £200, whichever is the greater. That leaves the opportunity more open to all, but might result in some items being unsold which is not to the benefit of the vendors or the Society.

[pete55]

Suppose Wizard of the Moor hadn't posted that photo on 7 April (post #6) then I doubt we would be having this discussion. It would be like any other year at S4N, S4um, ExpoEM, etc. when it is just a question of luck if you see the item you want.

 

I've been to those shows for many years assisting for both days on a particular trade stand and had never bought anything, because when I did get the opportunity to get to the B&B there wasn't anything I was interested in. I don't know what had been there and already sold, so I didn't get any sense of disappointment. Someone put a Unimat 3 on the B&B on Sunday which sold in about ten minutes (I know the vendor who told me he thought he must have under priced it as it sold so quickly). How many people who went on Saturday would have been interested in it and, until I mentioned it here were blissfully unaware that someone else got a bargain they might have liked.

 

The only real point of discussion here is whether anyone should be limited in the amount they are permitted to buy. Clearly anyone buying a large quantity is more likely to be buying to trade it, rather than for their own modelling requirements. Do you limit an individuals purchases to say a maximum of five items or £200, whichever is the greater. That leaves the opportunity more open to all, but might result in some items being unsold which is not to the benefit of the vendors or the Society.

 

Exactly right Jol.

If it wasn't for that picture, there would be no complaints.

So the moral of the story is if you publish a picture of goods that will be offered for sale on a public forum such as this, then simply make sure they are available for sale after the doors are open to the public.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hmmm,

 

This issue (with its associated bad taste) will rear its head annually until an alternative strategy is devised. It goes against the spirit of this event and the hobby generally to have the opportunity for blatant profiteering alongside skilled individuals voluntarily giving up their time to entertain and instruct those who want to progress in the hobby. 

 

Dave

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hmmm,

 

This issue (with its associated bad taste) will rear its head annually until an alternative strategy is devised. It goes against the spirit of this event and the hobby generally to have the opportunity for blatant profiteering alongside skilled individuals voluntarily giving up their time to entertain and instruct those who want to progress in the hobby. 

 

Dave

 

Sell nothing until;

Take all the interested parties into the car park and assemble into one seething mass, then one at a time, throw the sales items into the melee, and voila, a fair way of distribution. Survival of the fittest.

 

Mike.

[bluebottle]

Sell nothing until;

Take all the interested parties into the car park and assemble into one seething mass, then one at a time, throw the sales items into the melee, and voila, a fair way of distribution. Survival of the fittest.

 

Mike.

 

Hm...

I've just been reading the Wikipedia article on affray:

"In many legal jurisdictions related to English common law, affray is a public order offence consisting of the fighting of one or more persons in a public place to the terror (in French: à l'effroi) of ordinary people (the lieges). Depending on their actions, and the laws of the prevailing jurisdiction, those engaged in an affray may also render themselves liable to prosecution for assault, unlawful assembly, or riot; if so, it is for one of these offences that they are usually charged."

 I'd imagine that the Scalefour Society could also be charged, for aiding and abetting. 

[micklner]

On arrival verybody gets a numbered programme.

Limit everybody to one item noting the programme number , when no more buyers, then allow more items to be for sale.

 

You would then see genuine buyers who are prepared to wait and stop greedy/rich/traders people grabbing everything.

[Bulwell Hall]

Hmmm,

 

This issue (with its associated bad taste) will rear its head annually until an alternative strategy is devised. It goes against the spirit of this event and the hobby generally to have the opportunity for blatant profiteering alongside skilled individuals voluntarily giving up their time to entertain and instruct those who want to progress in the hobby. 

 

Dave

 

I couldn't have put it better myself!  I don't model the NER so on this occasion didn't miss anything but this sort of behaviour really winds me up!  Of course, we all know who the individual is so perhaps if nobody bought kits from him via the well known auction site he will get stuck with it all - but that unfortunately, is a forlorn hope!

 

Gerry

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

...forlorn as you say Gerry. The only option is to remove the opportunity.

 

Dave

[Enterprisingwestern]

...forlorn as you say Gerry. The only option is to remove the opportunity.

 

Dave

 

Forlorn hope is a very accurate description!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forlorn_hope

 

Mike.

[gr.king]

If the culprit is well known for his behaviour why was he not turned away firmly until "legitimate" modellers had been given their full and fair chances to buy????

 

I agree with Pete's point above. The presence of the "golden opportunity" was shown not just privately to S4 members who might know how to get items reserved in advance, but also to the general modelling "public", arguably as an inducement to attend the show and to pay for admission. The organisers therefore had an obligation to ensure that the advertised items were genuinely available.

[Jol Wilkinson]

If the culprit is well known for his behaviour why was he not turned away firmly until "legitimate" modellers had been given their full and fair chances to buy????

 

I agree with Pete's point above. The presence of the "golden opportunity" was shown not just privately to S4 members who might know how to get items reserved in advance, but also to the general modelling "public", arguably as an inducement to attend the show and to pay for admission. The organisers therefore had an obligation to ensure that the advertised items were genuinely available.

As I understand it the "culprit" as you call him has been buying items in this way for several years. It has only become a matter of complaint because it was known in advance that a quantity of desirable kits would be for sale on the B&B, D&S kits in particular being mentioned.

 

The irony is that some of these "rare" 4mm D&S kits are still being produced,some in batches by Danny Pinnock and some by other suppliers who have bought in some of the D&S range such as London Road Models. Danny hasn't publicised that widely although I believe that notice of runs of GER kits may appear in the GER Society newsletter. I bought five NER clerestory kits about fifteen months ago (they are currently being built and I probably paid more for them than those that were sold at S4N) and if I want any other D&S item I can always go to the source to see if I can still get them or find out if they have been sold to another supplier. 

 

So how would you suggest the organisers ensure fair and equitable availability of a limited selection of items? How do you define a "legitimate" modeller, make people bring a sample of their model making as proof or a note from their local club? Should members of the club/society have preference over casual visitors?  After all, they underwrite the show through their subscriptions. Should a percentage be held back for late arrivals or for the second day of the show and if so what?. And if such an action results in items being unsold, does the owner have any redress, and what of the loss of income to the club/society. It's likely that whatever ideas are suggested it isn't going to suit every one and somebody is going to be p*ss*d off if they know that something was available and they didn't get it.

 

If it seems that I am being unsympathetic, not so. I just don't see a straightforward solution that is fair and equitable to all parties - other than not advertising in advance what is available. This is the first time I've ever seen it, as the items for sale on B&Bs usually turn up at the show brought by those attending. This was a most unusual situation with such a large consignment arriving beforehand.

 

So I don't think there is any point in debating other ways of running a B&B, possibly with the exception of limiting a amount an individual can buy. And if that results in unsold stock, then it'll soon be dropped. If an item isn't sold at the show, end of story. It isn't like a manufacturer/trader who owns his own stock, attends multiple shows and has on line or mail order sales opportunities.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Whilst it means commandeering another society volunteer, which are thin on the ground, maybe the society selling them directly on ebay could circumnavigate this thorny little problem.

 

Mike.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Whilst it means commandeering another society volunteer, which are thin on the ground, maybe the society selling them directly on ebay could circumnavigate this thorny little problem.

 

Mike.

The owner of the item could do that himself. Presumably he finds it easier and perhaps more equitable to offer it for sale through the B&B. I've put things into the B&B because it's easy. I don't have to photograph it, package it, post it or put some money into an allegedly tax dodging organisation.

[chrisf]

I confess to being a little surprised that the bring and buy was open for business at or before public admission time.  At Expo-EM sales do not commence for a good half-hour after the punters are admitted - which gives those who bring time to check in what they hope others will buy.  Perhaps unusually, I tend to steer clear of this stall until the initial scrum - plague of locusts if you like - has abated since I have this strange aversion to being jostled and barged.

 

Apart from the bring and buy issue I thought it a very good show.  The new venue is a great improvement: I found the old one a bit of a labyrinth and kept losing my bearings [not the pinpoint type, you understand].  In addition to meeting and nattering with many folk that I know over the two days I had the great pleasure of meeting Chris Pendlenton.  The public voted quite correctly for Flintfield as the best layout.  I wonder whether anyone actually got to have a go at weathering on Tim Shackleton's stand?  I didn't but this, he told me, is because the specimens I had brought have not yet been converted to P4.

 

I was going to say that the only problem I noticed was the catering but I realise that it must be terribly difficult to match supply and demand and it is not a job that I would like to do!  There was precious little room in the car park when I got there fractionally after opening time.  Did anyone else get caught by the temporary traffic lights on the road in from Junction 40?  What a PITA they were!  I should have followed my own first law of taxi driving* and come in via Junction 41.

 

Chris

 

* - the longest way round is the shortest way there

[meil]

At the end of the day the only "true" fair way is by auction as that establishes the true market price. The auction to start at an appropriate time, say 2 hours after opening to allow viewing.

 

The reason this is so controversial is because when you are dealing with desirable items and they are not priced at market value (and that was a statement made) you open the way for someone to benefit from that market failure, which is what you are actually complaining about.

[45609]

As I understand it the "culprit" as you call him has been buying items in this way for several years. It has only become a matter of complaint because it was known in advance that a quantity of desirable kits would be for sale on the B&B, D&S kits in particular being mentioned.

It became a matter of complaint a few years ago at Scaleforum where the same practice occurred when one (most likely the same) individual cherry picked the B&B long before the opening time by getting all of the goods he wanted placed in a large box behind the stand for payment later. This activity was not carried out in his name but in the name of the trader he was associated with. I know, I saw and heard the transactions taking place. The irony of this is that the culprit (individual) is associated with a name in the trade that at one time had the following statement listed on the website

 

"D&S Models 4mm kits - don't pay those silly eBay prices"

 

This statement has now gone from the website in question but the internet archive (such as the way back machine) reveals the truth.

The owner of the item could do that himself. Presumably he finds it easier and perhaps more equitable to offer it for sale through the B&B. I've put things into the B&B because it's easy. I don't have to photograph it, package it, post it or put some money into an allegedly tax dodging organisation.

Well, the owner might be dead and relying on his friends to deal with his estate. I have recently helped out in this task following the death of a member of our S4 Area Group. Knowing the likely actions of a small minority if we placed everything into the B&B we took the consicious decision to sell as much as we could (the more desirable items) on Ebay ourselves to maximise the return to the widow. Some did eventually go into the B&B at Scaleforum and we noticed a few weeks later that our trader had obtained one or two low value items and had then for sale on Ebay. We know because we recognised some of our dead friend's hand writting on the packets.

 

I guess my point is that a reasonable solution was enacted by the Scaleforum organising team (notably John Armstrong) and yet the S4North team have allowed the questionable behaviour to continue. The Scalefour Society need to apply some consistency to the B&B procedure and restore a bit of confidence that they are not just lining the pockets of others. Also they definitely do not need to post a tantalising image of items for sale before the show opens to enflame the situation.

[Wizard of the Moor]

Well, that was a busy weekend. Many thanks to everyone for the positive comments here, and those by email and PM.

Setting up the show in a new venue after so many years across town was nerve wracking, but most things came good in the end and I've got a list of improvements for next year.

This was the best attended Scalefour North since records began and it was very nice to see that so many familiar faces found their way to the new venue.

The results of the best layout vote were as follows:

1st - Flintfield
2nd - Clecklewyke
3rd - Brighton Road

Congratulations to Vincent de Bode and his crew.

Paul Townsend took custody of the Eileen's Emporium award for the best scratchbuilt model on behalf of the late Mike Jolly for the model of Olton Bridge displayed on the Standard Gauge Workbench stand.

Many thanks also to all of the other members of the team for working hard to make the show a success. Some went well beyond the call of duty in trying to deal with the plumbing problems. If anyone knows of a janitorial suppliers open in Wakefield after 6.00pm on a Saturday...

I hope that you enjoyed the show. If you did, then tell your friends. If you didn't, then tell me: scalefournorth@scalefour.org



 

I nearly forgot the Bring and Buy. Here's the scoop from the horse's mouth:

Nothing was sold, reserved or otherwise cherry-picked from the Bring and Buy stand before the show opened to the public. Nothing, nowt, nil, zilch, nada.

No-one got special treatment, no matter what. Don't matter who you are, what you do or where you come from.

Anyone can arrange to have a box behind the stand to store their goodies and save carrying them about. At your own risk - some items did get nicked.

All the items in the photo that I posted were on the stand at 10.00am on the Saturday. Every. Single. One. There were some additional items, not pictured, that the collection's previous owner had offered to a friend and I acted as middleman to arrange pick-up of these at the show. As the buyer is building a very accurately researched model of an NER branchline then I could hardly refuse to help.

 

I am very well aware of what used to happen at the Scaleforum Bring & Buy, having had a similar experience to mgilbert some years ago. I am also well aware of the changes that were made when the new team took over and there is, and always has been, a similar policy at Scalefour North.

I hope that clears up any confusion. I'll be happy to discuss the workings of the Bring & Buy further offline.