expoEM 2014 Bracknell 17-18 May 2014

[Tim Horn]

Kenton, if you had such a problem with us, the best course of action would have been to chat with the managers at Expo and get them to have a word with us.

 

You are one of the leading RMwebbers on here, and your attitude is quite appalling in my view, we do this as an unpaid hobby. I will personally repay your entrance fee if you drop me a PM.

 

Tim

[Kenton]

 

Yes but does that mean were all allowed to be rude about one another?

This forum is starting to get a reputation fro threads ending in stupid little rows and loosing members how does being rude about someones achievements help the hobby we're all apart of?

It feels as if I am becoming the subject of this discussion rather than the show and the way in which one layout dominated it.

 

I am somewhat long in the tooth and have always had a hard edgy way of as I see it speaking the truth as I see it. I expect the same from others. So when I present my modelling, which has been known, I expect others to be critical of what they see as errors being as blunt as they like along with praise of course - muted. I do not see anything that I have said as being rude.

 

I would prefer this to have been a discussion about big layouts at shows, layouts that are under construction at shows, or the "we have been here before" how to entertain and involve the public when presenting a layout at shows.

[Tim Horn]

The difference here is that we have a few layouts put out there in the exhibition circuit that simply do not represent what some of the attending public wish to see. Should we wrap these layouts in cotton wool and subsequently let other groups of modellers continue down the same route? Or should we not pass comment and limit their appearance? 

 

Is that a 'we' as in Rmweb? So you want to limit our appearance, that's very brave of you . . . 

 

I don't know you personally Kenton, I don't hide behind a 'name'. Have I upset you before?

 

Tim

[Revolution Mike]

 It feels as if I am becoming the subject of this discussion rather than the show and the way in which one layout dominated it.

 

I am somewhat long in the tooth and have always had a hard edgy way of as I see it speaking the truth as I see it. I expect the same from others. So when I present my modelling, which has been known, I expect others to be critical of what they see as errors being as blunt as they like along with praise of course - muted. I do not see anything that I have said as being rude.

 

The problem is I'm not sure that you can get away that:

 

"Yes and really too big. For me it just looked like one enormous test track and after waiting what seemed like an age for one long train to pass there was little to occupy the mind until the next one. All that glorious trackwork with so little actually running. I returned to it several times during the morning, well you could hardly miss it, and each time a long wait was rewarded with just one passing long train"

 

Or: "Calcutta was not worth the space or any additional cost. I'm not a great fan of the big roundy layouts but there are some considerably better ones out there. The crew on this one seemed to be more interested in discussing the fiddle yard than sending trains out for the public. Perhaps they were having problems with the layout/stock, perhaps a bad Friday night out, who knows? But staring at long straight track with nothing much else happening does get rather tedious - no matter how good the track and how parallel the track. Sorry guys this one should stay in the club room where there is no public to entertain."

 

Or: "just what is the point of putting them in shows if there is no effort to show off modelling or to provide entertainment. The team operating this one appeared to make no effort to do either."

 

Or: "As for modelling on this particular layout I am afraid I did not see any (other than the track). I still think it was ill-conceived as an exhibition layout and still fell short of the mark on entertainment with the crew being disinterested in the public. That is constructive feedback something to put right for the next outing."

 

It is perfectly reasonable for you not to like a layout but there is a fine line between critiqueing something and being rude, IMHO you have stepped well over it with the snide comments and entreaties that it shouldn't come out....

 

Cheers, Mike

 

PS I should probably declare an interest here, in that I am delighted to be a show organiser (well deputy anyway) where Calcutta Sidings will appear in the future.

[Grovenor]

I would prefer this to have been a discussion about big layouts at shows, layouts that are under construction at shows, or the "we have been here before" how to entertain and involve the public when presenting a layout at shows.

If that was what you wanted, then some constructive suggestions as to how the presentation might be improved would have stimulated such a discussion?

One of the main problems with such large layouts is that opportunities for operator learning and practice prior to showing are minimal or non-existant, hence the shake down issues mentioned above.

Keith

[PGC]

The trouble we seem to have here is the understanding of what an opinion is.

 

An opinion is subjective. Statements like the ones I've highlighted below 

 

 The seats while welcome do need to be spread about more, probably at the back of layouts / along the wall in 2s or 3s rather than a central focal point and certainly not at the expense of gangways or layouts

Calcutta was not worth the space or any additional cost. I'm not a great fan of the big roundy layouts but there are some considerably better ones out there. The crew on this one seemed to be more interested in discussing the fiddle yard than sending trains out for the public. Perhaps they were having problems with the layout/stock, perhaps a bad Friday night out, who knows? But staring at long straight track with nothing much else happening does get rather tedious - no matter how good the track and how parallel the track. Sorry guys this one should stay in the club room where there is no public to entertain.

BTW - I didn't mention that the guide was excellent!!! colour, glossy, TRACK PLANS, and free! Outstanding and useful - just shows to others it can be done.

 

are not subjective, and that's what has angered so many people, including me.

 

If, Kenton, you had said "In my opinion" or "personally, I think..." and then made you comments, the sting wold have been taken away from what you said and they'd have been taken as opinions. As it is, you did not use those words so you have made very definite statements that are rude, arrogant and unwarranted. For that, you should apologise.

 

Lastly, in a later post, you say you are long in the tooth. It's a shame that this "length of tooth" hasn't taught you courtesy, tact or diplomacy.

 

Phil

[edcayton]

 

One of the main problems with such large layouts is that opportunities for operator learning and practice prior to showing are minimal or non-existant, hence the shake down issues mentioned above.

Keith

 

But that's not right. This layout is shown set up not at an exhibition so surely there WAS opportunity for learning. Even if there wasn't then some arrangements should have been made.

 

I didn't get to Expo this year. I was mainly put off by the "D & E" emphasis, I haven't seen Calcutta Sidings and shan't go out of my way to see it BUT if it is at a show I go to I will have a look and try to be objective.

 

I do expect to see lots of trains running on a large layout. I saw Thurston at the Ely show on Saturday and there was lots happening,

probably much more than prototypical, but engaging.

 

Ed

[Highlandman]

Open post to AndyY.

 

This topic started out as a discussion about ExpoEM 2014, According to the title that is. 'ExpoEM 2014 Bracknell 17-18 May 2014'

 

And certainly up until about page 2 or 3 it remained that way until it changed when several 'comments' and 'opinions' were made.

 

It now appears that this topic has now become a public slanging match between a minority of members who should know better, rather than a general discussion of the show and a place to post ones photographs.

 

Forums are about debate, learning and dare I say it entertainment. But when a topic gets so far away from its title and uncivil should the Moderators not step in and put a stop to it. Encourage it to take place via PM or on its own topic and leave the original topic for what it was designed for.

 

After all if I wanted to see strife, arguments, divorce and murder I'd watch Eastenders or Coronation Street.

[Kenton]

 

I don't know you personally Kenton, I don't hide behind a 'name'. Have I upset you before?

 

I don't think we have met but this has nothing to do with the 'us' as individuals. My comments have not been about you personally they are about the layout and the impression received about its operation and the "we" include the comments overheard a long way from the FY at the front.

 

I cannot comment on the FY as it was too far away to see it in operation - I think the idea of it being interchangeable between layouts is novel and I like. But if the public cannot access it to see it is unlikely to generate interest and questions. Inevitable with roundy-roundy layouts about 70% of the layout is removed from the scene and becomes the private space of the crew. I and many others like to see how a FY operates.

 

As for reporting a layout or its operation team to the headmaster (show organiser) well that is part of what feedback is given in topics like this that are used to advertise the event prior to the show and to analyse the event afterwards.

 

(Note: Highlandman - this has always been the way these "show advertising" topics have evolved, nothing new there, the comments I originally made were about just that. what was good and not so good about the selection of layouts - It has become more personal since then - perhaps with some justification, perhaps not.) I only respond to direct comments made or questions asked of me. I generally do not like the PM system as I do not like to whisper behind closed doors, which I find the PM system to be.)

 

In hindsight I think the positioning of this layout did it no favours, perhaps a note for future shows. If it had been more central and walk around it would have given more access to the public - more like Widnes in a previous year. But I guess in early days you have little control over that.

[Tim Horn]

It is personal Kenton. This is a world wide 'Public' arena. Thousands view it, take notes and get a general impression of a layout long before they see it. You've made your points, I'd have made them more constructively but that's just me.

 

You can't just turn around and say it the 'layout' that you're referring to, it didn't build itself . . .   You've done the same 'attitude' to my Bass article and bridge in MRJ this month as well. I've been diplomatic with my words, that's the only difference.

 

Tim

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I am getting the feeling I should visit a show with a T-shirt that say "I Am NOT KENTON"

[2ManySpams]

I think Andy Y needs to add a 'please drop it' or 'timeout' button. Both sides have said their pieces and, having not been able to make the show, it would be nice to have some views and photos of the show from other folk that attended. The other discussion is getting tedious for folk not involved. BTW that's just my opinion if anyone is in any doubt!

[Mod4]

Dear each, I think you ought to know i'm feeling very depressed... 

 

Chris has just beaten me to it. I please request that we refrain from further circular comment about what was one persons opinion, however well or otherwise it might have been expressed. 

 

Whilst it is tempting to lock the thread, such actions in the past have also been questioned, and therefore for the time being it shall remain open for ongoing discussion about the show itself. 

 

....I would like to this to be a suggestion that you do listen too...a slightly modified quote..

[woodenhead]

Or to protect him we should all wear 'I'm Kenton' t-shirts, we don't want blood at the next exhibition.

 

I did make a reference earlier that the fiddleyard on Calcutta is shared with two forthcoming magnum opus layouts, please don't construe that as marking Calcutta down and I've seen it develop from bare track to where it is now.

 

Some might say it is quite straight and not a lot to see, but we are talking handmade track aren't we and isn't the real railway straight at times with swathes of track and not a lot standing on it. This is a layout where sound does work because of its length you get to appreciate the train approaching at a scale speed. I've watched it at exhibitions and it does hold people captive, I like to see trains running but not too many, I can do that at home.

 

If that was my layout I'd be more than happy and I am sure a lot of others feel the same, but let's not forget this exhibition was about more than one layout.

 

Edit: I was formulating my post as the mod was posting.

[Tim Horn]

Just a few from me, bit biased though  

 

Cheers

Tim

 

 

 

 

[Glorious NSE]

Tim, i'm not quite sure what Kenton was looking at, but there's some fabulous modelling visible there. I know you've work still to do on it, but I do love that period intermodal stuff.

 

It's something that's not at all simple or easy to model, and that's something that may not be obvious to many...

[tomstaf]

Just a few from me, bit biased though  

 

Cheers

Tim

 

 

47 TJH01 CSv2 ExpoEM May 2014 Copyright Tim Horn.jpg

 

That WHSmith van is getting about. I'm sure I've seen it on the Bridge at Burton and at New St too. Mind you I suppose Burton and Birmingham and pretty close

 

Cheers

 

Tom

[Tim V]

I'm hoping that the next time I see Calcutta Sidings, the staging roads are fully visible, rather than hard up against the wall. When the exhibition manager asks where you want to be, ask for an island site, there is something to look at all the way round the Layout. Looked like some fine modelling there. What point motors were used?

[Tim Horn]

Hi Tim, we do ask to be an Island, but it didn't happen this time. We get just as much interest round the back as we do the front, I've put curtains up on the fiddleyard as well just to finish it off nicely too but they didn't seem required at this one. It 'may' have come across as being busy in operating well this weekend cause we like to invite people in to have a look and chat, if they ask.

 

Tortoise motors all the way with this one. Thank you for the kind comments. Jim S-W's trucks and cars were out the front, they will see some mileage over the next several years!

 

Cheers
Tim

[Michael Woolford]

I have already posted these photographs of Diesels in the Duchy on the layout thread but since this is a thread about the show, I will share them here too.

 

Michael

[Andy Y]

 But when a topic gets so far away from its title and uncivil should the Moderators not step in and put a stop to it. Encourage it to take place via PM or on its own topic and leave the original topic for what it was designed for.

 

 

 

I did try last night http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81943-expoem-2014-bracknell-17-18-may-2014/page-4&do=findComment&comment=1456401 but I've been away from a keyboard since. If someone lobs a grenade and it gets tossed back why is it always us that have to go round defusing UXBs?

 

As m'learned colleague says we do get criticised for other lockings and in this case it's a perfect storm of a daft comment, returned fire and then some complaining about all the blood on the floor.

[BigAndy]

Top quality photos of a couple of top quality layouts.

 

I've always been a fan of Damien's study of 'Diesels in the Duchy'.

 

I've only had chance to see Phils CS2 once, but have been very impressed by the standard of modelling - both layouts inspiring me into making the jump from finescale OO to EM ( yes I know CS2 is P4......)

 

I can only say that as CS2 evolves as a layout and as a model, then the operating will also evolve. Lessons learned early on will be put into practice and let's remember, for a layout as huge as CS2, there will be times of inactivity - its a Model Railway not a toy train set.......

 

Keep up the great work fellas, and keep the Diesel era faith!

 

cheers

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

But that's not right. This layout is shown set up not at an exhibition so surely there WAS opportunity for learning. Even if there wasn't then some arrangements should have been made.

 

I didn't get to Expo this year. I was mainly put off by the "D & E" emphasis, I haven't seen Calcutta Sidings and shan't go out of my way to see it BUT if it is at a show I go to I will have a look and try to be objective.

 

I do expect to see lots of trains running on a large layout. I saw Thurston at the Ely show on Saturday and there was lots happening,

probably much more than prototypical, but engaging.

 

Ed

Hi Ed

 

You missed some very good modelling. I am a D&E modeller but the layout I enjoyed viewing the most was a GWR BLT Brixcombe with its Edwardian locos and coaches.

 

I feel sorry for any modeller who has a blinkered view of railway modelling where they will only watch layouts of a certain type at shows.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have posted photo's on DitD, photo's of other trainsets will be placed here once I have resized them.

 

SS

[Tim Horn]

I only managed a couple of shots of one of my favorites, Roundtrees