Washout at Dawlish

[24grange]

1 track wasn't that long ago on the Viaduct, they changed the headshunt from the viaduct to running to the left of it sometime in the 1990's I think - The Meldon Buffet car sits at the end of it now. In the late 1980's/early 1990's I saw a class 50 with a rake of dogfish on the viaduct itself - so it must have been "passed"  for loco's less that 25 years ago ! All the decking on top was replaced when the viaduct was restored in the 2000's for Sustrans - whether this was just cosmetic purposes or not I do not know.

 

I heard the MP for Dawlish getting all excited saying how the railway must remain in Dawlish and that It mustnt be diverted otherwise people in Newton Abbot, Dawlish, Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth have no rail service. I think the point everyone is making is that Bere Alston, Tavistock, Okehampton Credition would be a diversion route only ( Hopefully serviced by local services tavistock - Plymouth and Okehampton - Exeter)  and not replacing the line through Dawlish and closing it, but having the Okehampton - bere Alston section bit  route as "emergency diversion" one. I think Bere Alston to Meldon is 19 miles - if they rebuild back to Tavistock it drops to 13 I think.

 

I commute from Exmouth To Plymouth. Average this week is 3 Hours, train to Exeter St Davids. The Direct Bus to Plymouth leaves, just as the Exmouth Train arrives at Platform 1 ( Good timing, I watched it go! )  next direct bus in one hour, so Bus to Newton Abbot, wait 40 minutes, Bus to Plymouth, stopping at Totnes and Ivybridge. If it wasn't for my season ticket, I'd go by car.

 

Anyone know why trains are not going between Plymouth and Newton Abbot ? Track damage? lack of crews?

[royaloak]

Anyone know why trains are not going between Plymouth and Newton Abbot ? Track damage? lack of crews?

Exeter signal box covers the area to just South of Totnes, the cables to the signals/track circuits/ points etc is currently on the beach at Dawlish so the signals/ track circuits are not working right. Until the signalling cables can be repaired and proved as such then the trains simply cannot run.

[24grange]

OK - Thanks, didn't appreciate Exeter's Signal Boxes reach that far.

[royaloak]

OK - Thanks, didn't appreciate Exeter's Signal Boxes reach that far.

Such are the joys of signal boxes covering such huge areas, it will only get worse when these ROCs are rolled out, the South West will be covered from Didcot so if the cables are knocked out on the B&H there wont be any trains running South West of the break, its the modern way!

[Pete 75C]

Such are the joys of signal boxes covering such huge areas, it will only get worse when these ROCs are rolled out, the South West will be covered from Didcot so if the cables are knocked out on the B&H there wont be any trains running South West of the break, its the modern way!

 

Very true and it all depends on your idea of "progress". Yes, you can wipe out an awful lot of old infrastructure and make huge savings on manpower (remember when a job on the railways or indeed in many other major industries was a job for life?), but the sad fact is that when things go wrong, it affects countless more people than it needs to. That's the bit that I have a problem with when people talk of progress!

[Rivercider]

I've just been to have a look at the sea wall at Teignmouth, taking advantage of the calm before the anticipated (worse) storms this weekend.  There were plenty of people out doing the same as me, although it was just about to be closed off to allow some maintenance to start.  This is about an hour after high tide.  Uncorrected high tide levels are a metre or so lower than when the last storm hit, although with the low pressure and high winds that may not count for much tomorrow.

 

Best wishes to all the NR teams and others working over at Dawlish, which makes this look very small beer.

 

BTW the pier at Teignmouth, visible in the left background in the second photo, is thought to have sustained some damage and may be vulnerable to the next storm.

Thanks for posting those.

 

'very small beer' you say, but some of that damage looks like it could easily be opened out if the next storm is as powerful.

Did you notice if the cliffside landslips are still active along that stretch?

 

cheers

[Pete 75C]

Looking at 10800's excellent Teignmouth photos, the damage looks comparable to what we sustained here in Sheringham in December's storm surge (see pic below). The railway aspect of the damage at Dawlish will be fixed as quick as possible, that's certain, but it will be interesting to see how quickly other non-railway damage is tackled. Sadly, after 2 months, we have an unstable section of cliff shored up with 3 props, and the promenade walk in Sheringham is still partly closed - there doesn't seem to be any urgency.

 

[Glorious NSE]

Such are the joys of signal boxes covering such huge areas, it will only get worse when these ROCs are rolled out, the South West will be covered from Didcot so if the cables are knocked out on the B&H there wont be any trains running South West of the break, its the modern way!

 

Would have thought a more modern network like the ROCs are supposed to be would not be dependant on one fixed cable to connect all the area's - anyone know if that's correct?

 

If so, that would presumably mean that whilst you could knock out one area with a disaster like this, it wouldn't neccesarily knock out all other area's beyond it?

 

(Doesn't stop somebody putting a JCB through the power cable to the ROC, but...)

[EddieB]

Looking at 10800's excellent Teignmouth photos, the damage looks comparable to what we sustained here in Sheringham in December's storm surge (see pic below). The railway aspect of the damage at Dawlish will be fixed as quick as possible, that's certain, but it will be interesting to see how quickly other non-railway damage is tackled. Sadly, after 2 months, we have an unstable section of cliff shored up with 3 props, and the promenade walk in Sheringham is still partly closed - there doesn't seem to be any urgency.

 

With all due respect, I don't see stabilisation of the cliff to restore access to a promenade as top priority, especially while winter storms may continue to rage.  Priority should rightly be given to stabilisation and repair where lives, property and essential communications are at risk.

[Pete 75C]

With all due respect, I don't see stabilisation of the cliff to restore access to a promenade as top priority, especially while winter storms may continue to rage.  Priority should rightly be given to stabilisation and repair where lives, property and essential communications are at risk.

 

You're quite right, going for a stroll on a Sunday with your dog along the prom is not a top priority. That, however, was not what I was suggesting. There are access roads and infrastructure as well as a few properties affected by the damage here in Sheringham and still nothing appears to be happening at anything other than a snail's pace. After 2 months,there is still no vehicle access to the lifeboat station for example. That I would consider quite important! It will be interesting to see if repairs in Teignmouth are any quicker.

 

Edit: the red bit is the point I was trying to make in the first place...

Edited February 7, 2014 by Pete_S

[The Stationmaster]

Such are the joys of signal boxes covering such huge areas, it will only get worse when these ROCs are rolled out, the South West will be covered from Didcot so if the cables are knocked out on the B&H there wont be any trains running South West of the break, its the modern way!

If the cabling is done to full BR IECC standards then there will always be a duplicate route - which from Didcot would of course only work as far as Exeter (assuming the cabling/comms is also taken via Yeovil and Honiton as well as the two ex GW routes.  For example when the Swindon 'mega box' was being planned provision was made for an alternative route via Gloucester and Birmingham to Paddington to avoid it being cut-off by an 'unfortunate incident'.

 

I don't know what standards are being used now but possibly the 'cloud' idea - which I understand is involved with some of the large control centres - does allow alternative routes?

 

The Western was never keen on the idea of emergency panels recognising right from the start that it was not much use having such a thing if you didn't have the people passed to man it - thus it only ever had a few of them.  One at Newton would be very useful but as far as I know the idea wasn't even considered although I'm fairly sure the area and Totnes can probably go into emergency 'through routes' working.

 

But to answer the earlier question from Brushman basically the simplest way of running east of Plymouth would be to institute Single Line Working with one line clipped up for a Plymouth - Newton route and another clipped up for Teignmouth - Paignton as I previously suggested.  But to do that does need some manpower resources and they simply might not exist nowadays.

Edited February 7, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[10800]

Did you notice if the cliffside landslips are still active along that stretch?

 

I was turned back as part of the pre-maintenance closure process before I got to the main landslip site (about 100m ahead of me in the last photo) but looking at the minor ones they seemed to be OK at the moment.

[Mallard60022]

This thread doesn't need a lock, but restraint from those who clutter it with irrelevant chatter A lock will see another thread started and basically continue in the same way...

 

[edit: this was a reply to post 450, but events move so fast others got their messages inserted in between.]

You are of course quite right. Maybe now the Trolls will depart? I did think things were getting a little agitated but then I'm a sensitive sort of person.

I had no idea that the east coast was still waiting for repairs; that's shameful.

Thanks.

P

[Ramblin Rich]

I've just been to have a look at the sea wall at Teignmouth, taking advantage of the calm before the anticipated (worse) storms this weekend.  There were plenty of people out doing the same as me, although it was just about to be closed off to allow some maintenance to start.  This is about an hour after high tide.  Uncorrected high tide levels are a metre or so lower than when the last storm hit, although with the low pressure and high winds that may not count for much tomorrow.

 

---------------------------

Best wishes to all the NR teams and others working over at Dawlish, which makes this look very small beer.

 

BTW the pier at Teignmouth, visible in the left background in the second photo, is thought to have sustained some damage and may be vulnerable to the next storm

 

Rod, thanks; it's still worrying how much damage has been done there, will still require a lot of work to restore the wall & ensure the tracks usable.

I've seen internal pictures of the pier, looked like the seas had punched up through the floor (bit like what happened to the Dawlish platform) & damaged the arcade etc - not life-threatening, but definitely shows the power involved. The waves deflect back from the sea wall & meet the next one coming in & 'reinforce' to produce an even higher wave just off shore - just where the pier is

Just found this aerial image on the NR website - the hole in the road alongside the washout is longer than apparent on the ground level pictures I've seen, more than just the one house at risk I'd say. Although we're all hoping & wishing for the railway to recover & improve from this, I do feel for all the folks here & elsewhere affected by the weather - and more to come too....

[mow]

This is on the other former GWR and LSWR lines in Devon on the BBC's webpage.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26068375

[TheSignalEngineer]

If the cabling is done to full BR IECC standards then there will always be a duplicate route - which from Didcot would of course only work as far as Exeter (assuming the cabling/comms is also taken via Yeovil and Honiton as well as the two ex GW routes. For example when the Swindon 'mega box' was being planned provision was made for an alternative route via Gloucester and Birmingham to Paddington to avoid it being cut-off by an 'unfortunate incident'.

 

I don't know what standards are being used now but possibly the 'cloud' idea - which I understand is involved with some of the large control centres - does allow alternative routes?

 

The Western was never keen on the idea of emergency panels recognising right from the start that it was not much use having such a thing if you didn't have the people passed to man it - thus it only ever had a few of them. One at Newton would be very useful but as far as I know the idea wasn't even considered although I'm fairly sure the area and Totnes can probably go into emergency 'through routes' working.

 

But to answer the earlier question from Brushman basically the simplest way of running east of Plymouth would be to institute Single Line Working with one line clipped up for a Plymouth - Newton route and another clipped up for Teignmouth - Paignton as I previously suggested. But to do that does need some manpower resources and they simply might not exist nowadays.

Agree that the best option and possibly only one depending on the remote control configuration is as two single lines. You only need to get points moved for changing sets for fuel and maintenance.

 

Exeter box was originally done in fairly primitive days, when the override control just set the main routes up and down, with a few selective locations such as allowing two alternatives at busy junctions. I don' know what the current configuration is there.

 

The problem was that the override control often went in the same route as the main control as it was intended to cover for TDM failures rather than losing the cable route.

 

More modern installations have diverse routing. This is by BT lines in cases where thee is no convenient railway route but that is fraught with problems as they are prone to changing the routing without notice and using a line which doesn't comply with the transmission requirements, particularly with SSI. I remember a time when Leeds worked on one half of the SSI system only for an extended period because of such a change. BT denied it had happened but the railway diagnostics proved otherwise.

Edited February 7, 2014 by TheSignalEngineer

[Captain Kernow]

Was reading an interesting discussion on Facebook earlier which suggested that the construction of some of the houses behind the line many years ago may have contributed to the collapse of the sea wall - both directly in that the weight of the houses may have exerted pressure on the sea wall, and indirectly in that apparently the owners of the new houses requested that the footpath (and hence the front edge of the sea wall)  be lowered so people walking along the wall couldn't see into the houses!

Not heard the argument about the weight of the houses, but I very much doubt that this would have affected the outer wall. The existence of the lower walkway, though, at the point of failure would appear to be significant.

 

For me, the authoritative work is 'Exeter to Newton Abbot - a Railway History', by Peter Kay, published by 'Platform 5' in 1993, and page 100 of this book tells us that the lower walkway was installed at the request of Mr James Powell of Sea Lawn House, so that passers by would not be able to look into his house. The house was later demolished and Sea Lawn terrace built in its place. So it's an old, historical reason and nothing to do with the wishes of the owners of the new houses.

 

Further to another post, I'm not aware of any significant damage to other portions of the wall, ie. between the tunnels and west of Parsons Tunnel, along to Teignmouth.

[Captain Kernow]

On another point, has the breach also severed the signalling cables and what does this mean for those parts of the Exeter PSB area that are west of it? 

The signalling was re-routed yesterday, tested and proved, and trains have started running between Plymouth and Newton Abbot as of this morning. We ran a shuttle from Paignton to Newton Abbot with pilotworking initially, but since the signalling there has been restored, that is obviously being signalled normally as well.

 

The engineers are also looking at extending the operational signalled area back to Teignmouth, when technically feasible.

[Ramblin Rich]

Glad to hear the track's probably okay at Teignmouth and probably just needs tidying - bit I doubt we'll be walking along there soon...

[gwrrob]

 and trains have started running between Plymouth and Newton Abbot as of this morning.

 

 

Glad to hear that CK,I was getting bored with no trains running in my railway room.

[Captain Kernow]

Glad to hear the track's probably okay at Teignmouth and probably just needs tidying - bit I doubt we'll be walking along there soon...

A two-car FGW unit was trapped in the Up platform at Teignmouth for a day or so. We worked that back to Newton Abbot under supervision yesterday, for use on the Pilotman shuttle to Paignton (before the signalling controls were re-routed).

[Captain Kernow]

Not been to site today - wall-to-wall phone conferences, with the problems on the Somerset Levels between Cogload Jct and Bridgwater taking on quite a significance. The signalling up there is not currently functional, due to location cabinets getting flooded, but we are working trains by temporary block working over both lines currently. However, I've never, ever known the water on that part of the Levels to get so high as to threaten the Bristol - Taunton main line, in over 30 years of my railway career.

 

The lads at Dawlish are getting on with it, though, and are getting ready to spray concrete on the foundations of the threatened house and elsewhere. I saw a photo on the BBC website, which shows the track cut up into sections and laid at the base of the break in the wall, to help break the waves up a bit. Everyone is on alert for the weather coming in tonight - high tide there is circa 2330 hrs, with the wind in the south initially, veering south west.

 

Another focus at the moment is getting the Whiteball blockade ready for handing back on Monday morning, we are hoping to route-prove with a light loco through the possession on Sunday.

[rab]

 

Also not wishing to sound pedantic, but Dorset has many long dual carriageways (Bournmouth/Ringwood even the Bere Regis/Puddletown bypass A31) and many of the other routes are new and wider upgraded single carriageways. Much of the problem with the road network in Devon and even more so in Cornwall are the narrow and winding roads. This is probably a combination of lack of investment and resistance by locals over many decades. We have to remember that Cornwall is a dead-end on any transport network, a road or rail journey to nowhere. Anyone going that way has to have the single minded purpose to want to go there (or escape) it will never have passing traffic like Watford.

For 'resistance by locals' read 'resistance by incomers'

[Phlogiston]

The legal and commercial processes for re-opening the LSWR route would possibly take as long as those needed for a new route, but not necessarily. For either option it would be years before construction began (see HS2). The existing formation is less likely to be further delayed by archaeological survey, evaluation and further fieldwork  which would inevitably take place on the new route. Regarding Meldon, I would (IMHO) expect that a sensitive refurbishment proposal respecting the existing appearance would at least be considered by EH.

 

A concern with the Meldon route also has to be the fact that Aggregate Industries has put it up for sale. Not much seems to have happened for a while, but one wonders how long this situation can continue. The asking price at the time for the quarry and railway was £5m. Network Rail has shown no interest in purchasing the line. I doubt whether the American BARS can afford it and Devon County Council certainly cannot. What would happen then, if Aggregate Industries wished to liquidate their asset for scrap value? It would be politically unacceptable in the South West to lose the rail lines to Meldon, but who has the money and the will to save the line?

[Gary H]

On the continuing discussion of the old LSWR route, its pretty much a non event! Just being realistic,  It will never happen, end of.