Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Edwardian]

Well, three little maids from school they ain't, but it makes you realise how colourful those black and white photographs would be if they were, err, in colour.

 

1912:

[Edwardian]

Contrast with 1895

[mike morley]

Don't think much of yours . . . .

[ChrisN]

Don't think much of yours . . . .

 

Mike,

Is that what the lady in blue is saying?

[mike morley]

If its me they're looking at, probably

[Simond]

do I need to model the harp?

[ChrisN]

do I need to model the harp?

 

Simon,

The answer is if you want to.  On acg_mr's Bakewell thread Al models a push along lawnmower.  Harps are larger and less complicated although the strings would be interesting.

[ChrisN]

Moving back to the picture of the train on the bridge, I have at last had time to look at it again.  (I have been busy this week I had to go to work for three days, can you imagine it, three days not two!)

 

I have the advantage of using the enhanced image that Mike Oxen sent me but I cannot put it up as I realised that it is not from the collection on Flickr, but from the Francis Firth collection.

 

The front and rear coaches appear to be full brakes.  The one behind the first brake has four compartments and a luggage compartment.  There are two six compartment coaches, the clerestory, and then the four wheel four compartment coach.  All the other coaches apart from the clerestory are six wheelers.  All the coaches apart from the clerestory have oil lighting.  The engine looks like a 4-4-0, it has the same outline as engines that are identified as 4-4-0s on Barmouth Bridge.  It would appear that the last two coaches are smaller than the front ones although this may be a trick of perspective as the clerestory would be taller.

 

So my guess is that the first and last brakes are Cambrian, the coach second from end is a First Class, originally a 1st/2nd composite, then a GWR clerestory, two Cambrian thirds and finally a tri-composite.

 

If the type of engine shows it is a mainline train then it is the 12:20 from Barmouth as this is the only train that would carry a GWR coach along the main line.  However, that train would have through coaches to Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester London Road.  I assume the tri-composite is a through coach.  It could be an earlier Dolgelley train with through coaches to Paddington and Manchester Exchange, although I have not seen a picture of a 4-4-0 on the branch.  There is no sunshine to give tell tale shadows.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[tanatvalley]

This raises an interesting issue presumably the receiving company would be the North Staffs. I assume they would charge a rate based on the shortest route. So who decides which way it is too go. Would the Cambrian be paid for the same mileage as the GWR route to Barmouth  even if they sent it via Welshpool so all the monies went to them? I presume too. If it came loaded by a route it would be returned by the same route.

Don

Route lists were issued by 'sending' company. The delivery of coal from the North Staffordshire coalfield was via Crewe and Whitchurch.

Source: Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian by Mike Lloyd.

 

The RCH published mileage tables which were universally used to calculate rates, it seems no railway company trusted another to measure its mileage accurately!

 

I did find it surprising to see a Foxfield wagon at Barmouth as the Ruabon coalfield is nearer. There are so few private owner wagon photographs on the Cambrian where the name is readable. I have found the situation is even worse for stations such as Portmadoc, Criccieth and Pwllheli where I know of only one postcard which shows wagons from the Wigan coalfield.

 

Alan

[ChrisN]

Route lists were issued by 'sending' company. The delivery of coal from the North Staffordshire coalfield was via Crewe and Whitchurch.

Source: Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian by Mike Lloyd.

 

The RCH published mileage tables which were universally used to calculate rates, it seems no railway company trusted another to measure its mileage accurately!

 

I did find it surprising to see a Foxfield wagon at Barmouth as the Ruabon coalfield is nearer. There are so few private owner wagon photographs on the Cambrian where the name is readable. I have found the situation is even worse for stations such as Portmadoc, Criccieth and Pwllheli where I know of only one postcard which shows wagons from the Wigan coalfield.

 

Alan

 

Alan,

Thank you.  Another reason to get Mike Lloyd's book.  I assume that wagons from Wigan came on the LNWR via Afon Wen?

 

The RCH published diagrams which are available on the internet.  I have some showing the tube system so that passenger miles could be calculated.  I remembered at South Kensington using a platform the entrance of which is now blocked by the Ticket Office.  I also remember standing with my mum at the top of the stairs waiting to see which platform the train would come in on.  There is a 'kink' in the line that would be where two lines joined.  The diagram showed that the Circle line had its own track all the way to South Kensington, whereas now it joins before Gloucester Road.  The maps are coloured.  I unfortunately cannot find one that is relevant to the Cambrian.

[BG John]

I don't know if it's any help, as it's too modern and not very detailed, but I've got a copy of the 1938 RCH Official Handbook of Railway Stations, &c.. It lists basic facilities at stations, and private sidings.

[ChrisN]

I don't know if it's any help, as it's too modern and not very detailed, but I've got a copy of the 1938 RCH Official Handbook of Railway Stations, &c.. It lists basic facilities at stations, and private sidings.

 

John,

Thank you.  It probably is too late as I was hoping for a diagram of Dolgelley where the Cambrian met the GWR.

[Penlan]

John,

Thank you.  It probably is too late as I was hoping for a diagram of Dolgelley where the Cambrian met the GWR.

Do you mean a 1:2500 OS Plan ?

Without being a subscriber, the largest I can get a 1901 map up to on the Old-Maps web site is https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/272500/317500/12/101136 but it is not clear enough to give the detail you want, though you can order a copy...

EDIT - Just my luck the above web address only takes you to the home page,

and when your searching use Dolgellau, not Dolgelley or Dolgelly.

When you get the map up on the page, it is basically blue,

you need to zoom out a bit first, then start to do a + or two.

... and the map will be centered on the centre of Dolgellau, then move the map with the cursor and the stations are in a non-blue area.

PDF Copies are £16, but I'm not sure what you get, etc.,

 

OR, the Welsh Railways Research Circle may have a copy of the 1:2500 map.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Penlan

[ChrisN]

Do you mean a 1:2500 OS Plan ?

Without being a subscriber, the largest I can get a 1901 map up to on the Old-Maps web site is https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/272500/317500/12/101136 but it is not clear enough to give the detail you want, though you can order a copy...

EDIT - Just my luck the above web address only takes you to the home page,

and when your searching use Dolgellau, not Dolgelley or Dolgelly.

When you get the map up on the page, it is basically blue,

you need to zoom out a bit first, then start to do a + or two.

... and the map will be centered on the centre of Dolgellau, the move the map with the cursor and the staions are in a non-blue area.

PDF Copies are £16, but I'm not sure what you get, etc.,

 

OR, the Welsh Railways Research Circle may have a copy of the 1:2500 map.

 

Penlan,

Thank you.  I was hoping that there would be a RCH map of Dollgelley, a bit like this, but it was just to illustrate a point.

Edited August 8, 2015 by ChrisN

[Penlan]

Penlan,

Thank you.  I was hoping that there would be a RCH map of Dollgelley, a bit like this, but it was just to illustrate a point.

Do you mean this :-

 

 

This is extracted from John Spellers Pages at  http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatWestern/Narrowgauge/BalaMap.jpg

[tanatvalley]

Alan,

Thank you.  Another reason to get Mike Lloyd's book.  I assume that wagons from Wigan came on the LNWR via Afon Wen?

 i

Yes.

 

Alan

[ChrisN]

Do you mean this :-

 

BalaMap - Part.jpg

 

This is extracted from John Spellers Pages at  http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatWestern/Narrowgauge/BalaMap.jpg

 

Yes, thank you.  I obviously 'googled' the wrong thing.

[MikeOxon]

Yes, thank you.  I obviously 'googled' the wrong thing.

An excellent source of late 19th century OS maps is the National Library of Scotland.  By selecting the appropriate options, it is possible to view seamless '6 inch' County maps and zoom in for local detail.  As an example, for Barmouth, see http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=52.7237&lon=-4.0546&layers=171 but you can explore anywhere in the country and view various different map sources.  Just select the particular map you want in the 'drop down' box on the left.

Edited August 8, 2015 by MikeOxon

[ChrisN]

An excellent source of late 19th century OS maps is the National Library of Scotland.  By selecting the appropriate options, it is possible to view seamless '6 inch' County maps and zoom in for local detail.  As an example, for Barmouth, see http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=52.7237&lon=-4.0546&layers=171 but you can explore anywhere in the country and view various different map sources.  Just select the particular map you want in the 'drop down' box on the left.

 

Mike,

Thank you, a source of old maps! Wow!  Mind you, it has the same error that all the other maps I have seen have made, they have completely missed Traeth Mawr! 

[Penlan]

.... it has the same error that all the other maps I have seen have made, they have completely missed Traeth Mawr! 

Not just Traeth Mawr, even the Scottish OS doesn't have Brigadoon 

Edited August 8, 2015 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

I have the David & Charles reprint of the 1915 RCH Junction Diagrams book and the map of Dolgelley is slightly different but has the same information. At the end of the book there is a map of the mid Wales area from Barmouth at the top to Torpantau at the bottom, but it is cut off on the left and doesn't have the Newcastle Emlyn branch.

 

Jonathan 

[MikeOxon]

Mike,

Thank you, a source of old maps! Wow!  Mind you, it has the same error that all the other maps I have seen have made, they have completely missed Traeth Mawr! 

I gather some maps have deliberate mistakes to trap copyright thieves - that must be the explanation  

 

It's just the same with North Leigh Station - only one map I've seen shows this branch to Witney off the OW&W main line.  Fortunately, now that I've documented it, there are plenty of pics on Google!

[ChrisN]

I have the David & Charles reprint of the 1915 RCH Junction Diagrams book and the map of Dolgelley is slightly different but has the same information. At the end of the book there is a map of the mid Wales area from Barmouth at the top to Torpantau at the bottom, but it is cut off on the left and doesn't have the Newcastle Emlyn branch.

 

Jonathan 

 

Jonathan,

Thank you, so Don will be pleased but Neil will be disappointed.

[ChrisN]

I gather some maps have deliberate mistakes to trap copyright thieves - that must be the explanation

 

It's just the same with North Leigh Station - only one map I've seen shows this branch to Witney off the OW&W main line.  Fortunately, now that I've documented it, there are plenty of pics on Google!

 

Mike,

I will have to draw it myself sometime.  It is almost a shame that it is, apparently, more difficult to get random stuff on Wikipedia, or the whole history and photos of Traeth Mawr might appear.  Still if we get things on Google then that could be the source for a citation, or perhaps not. 

[ChrisN]

Ok, I am back on the bridge.  (It was allowed then, there was a walkway.)

 

I have looked at Mike Oxen's enlarged and enhanced picture again, and have measured roughly the length of the coaches.  I tried using his method to get rid of perspective but it did not work really for two reasons, 1) at that distance the difference between front and back is quite small, and 2) I could not quite remember how Mike did it and I was doing other things at the same time and could not go back to his thread to find the relevant entry.  I therefore did it the way I would have done it in the first place.  If there are two coaches of the same length next to each other, with different measurements on the picture then that will give an indication of the reduction you need to apply if you take the first guess as the scale being the same as the one next to it.  Confused? 

 

Having done it very roughly gave me a length somewhere between 42ft and 50ft.  I had previously looked in Russel there is a tri-composite built in 1890, the E27, which is 46ft 6".  It also has a toilet as the fifth window from one end and the coach on the bridge appears to be the same.

 

Next, who does a model?.  I looked on the GWR model web site and found that it was produced by Fourmil but is NLA.  However, the E37 from Slaters still is.  I looked at the model on the Cooper Craft web site and it is, I would say, indistinguishable from the E27.  The prototype was 6" shorter.  However, I suppose it could have been an E37 on the bridge.

 

Tri-composite would make sense for through coaches but I was hoping for 6 wheelers as they are shorter.  Well, I know what is going on my Christmas list!

 

Please feel free to disagree if you so wish.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.