Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Nick Gough]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Great picture Nick,

 

Is that you on the horse?  I thought you had a beard.

Not me Chris!

 

I 'borrowed' the photo from Facebook.

[corneliuslundie]

Another question about the Siphons at Barmouth? Might they have been bringing milk in? The hinterland of Barmouth is not exactly ideal cow keeping countryside. Might the milk have been coming from the Llyn Tegid area or from even further east?

Looking at Tywyn, on the other hand, there is a nice flattish valley behind the town which might well have supported dairy cattle.

What is the hinterland of Traeth Mawr? If it is like Barmouth then there might have been inward traffic in milk but if like Tywyn then probably not and possibly even outward traffic.

I don’t think milk from the Cambrian Coast would have travelled as far as the big cities such as Liverpool or Birmingham.

Now one thing I have not looked at is milk churns on the platforms at Barmouth, Tywyn etc. Will that tell us anything? Possibly if we know the time of day of the photo but even then I am not sure what.

Jonathan

[MikeOxon]

In the days before railways, cows for milk were often kept in quite small yards amongst the houses in towns - as were hens for eggs and a pig being fattened! 

 

Visitors to the SS Great Britain in Bristol can see the cowshed on the open weather deck, to provide milk during a voyage:

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Another question about the Siphons at Barmouth? Might they have been bringing milk in? The hinterland of Barmouth is not exactly ideal cow keeping countryside. Might the milk have been coming from the Llyn Tegid area or from even further east?

Looking at Tywyn, on the other hand, there is a nice flattish valley behind the town which might well have supported dairy cattle.

What is the hinterland of Traeth Mawr? If it is like Barmouth then there might have been inward traffic in milk but if like Tywyn then probably not and possibly even outward traffic.

I don’t think milk from the Cambrian Coast would have travelled as far as the big cities such as Liverpool or Birmingham.

Now one thing I have not looked at is milk churns on the platforms at Barmouth, Tywyn etc. Will that tell us anything? Possibly if we know the time of day of the photo but even then I am not sure what.

Jonathan

 

Johnathan,

 

I think there were a lot of cows around Harlech.  I am sure there is a picture of a cattle train there, quite a long one.  The area around Barmouth has never struck me as being very good for cows although there is some flat land to the north, where the man with the milk cart came from.  It is the same for Traeth Mawr, except the flat land is to the south.  The advert for someone to do milk distribution would point to that.

 

If they sent milk from that estate, how much, and how did they keep it cool?  I will look for milk churns on the pictures I have, and my favourite web site.  The site sometimes gets the year wrong so we will have to guess the time from the shadows telling us where the sun is.  Of course they could be ingoing or outgoing, and either full pr empty.  Goods documentation comes up on EBay, but I have seen nothing o do with milk.

 

Ifthe milk came into a shop, ?grocers, then they might have a cool room to keep the churns in.

[ChrisN]

8 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

In the days before railways, cows for milk were often kept in quite small yards amongst the houses in towns - as were hens for eggs and a pig being fattened! 

 

Visitors to the SS Great Britain in Bristol can see the cowshed on the open weather deck, to provide milk during a voyage:

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Could they only use cows that did not get sea sick?

[Edwardian]

Has it been established that there was significant traffic exporting milk from these country districts to towns and cities via rail as early as the mid-1890s?

 

The earlier quote from Sir Robert Henry Rew suggests that rail export of milk from country districts to towns was ubiquitous by 1892 and had probably been well established for a decade and a half by then.

 

That said I would imagine that a district like Dolgellau would have generally had a traditional good all-rounder breed like the Welsh Black to meet both the meat and dairy needs of the locality. Not the best herds to look to for surplus milk to export to towns, I should imagine. So I wonder if the question is whether the proximity of a rail head induced some nearby farmers to establish herds of dairy cattle? If so, how early was that seen?

[ChrisN]

23 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Has it been established that there was significant traffic exporting milk from these country districts to towns and cities via rail as early as the mid-1890s?

 

The earlier quote from Sir Robert Henry Rew suggests that rail export of milk from country districts to towns was ubiquitous by 1892 and had probably been well established for a decade and a half by then.

 

That said I would imagine that a district like Dolgellau would have generally had a traditional good all-rounder breed like the Welsh Black to meet both the meat and dairy needs of the locality. Not the best herds to look to for surplus milk to export to towns, I should imagine. So I wonder if the question is whether the proximity of a rail head induced some nearby farmers to establish herds of dairy cattle? If so, how early was that seen?

 

To look at this properly would take time, which I do not have at the precise moment, nor access to my own laptop.  So gleanings and surmise.

 

A Bing search of the internet, broght up the list of current UK registered dairy farmers.  There are none in the Barmouth Dolgellau area, although the estate at Bala is.

 

There is an old dairy, now used as a cottage on a farm at Penmeanpool, and one in Barmouth now used as a shop.

 

There are still lots of dairy farms registered on the Llyn Peninsula.

 

So, my thoughts are that dairy farming was never that big around Barmouth but in earlier times when conditions were maybe more favourable, there was some and was supported locally by local or farm dairies.  As larger dairies become more the norm, these closed for whatever reason.  The farm where man on the milk round shown previously came from, is now a caravan park, so both that farm and the one at Penmeanpool are now milking tourists, not cows.

 

However, dairy farming is still a large concern on the Llyn Peninsula so I would have thought they they would have exported their milk to lager cities, although it is possible that it went up the LNWR to Liverpool and Manchester than down the Cambrian GWR to Birmingham.

 

My feeling is that Barmouth farms supplied Barmouth, with some support, from say the estate at Bala, and maybe elsewhere.

 

My next job is to look at the Welsh newspapers for 1895 in mid Wales,  to see what articles adverts there are so as to glean anymore information.

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

My next job is to look at the Welsh newspapers for 1895 in mid Wales,  to see what articles adverts there are so as to glean any more information.

This advert from 1899 may be of interest

 

Mike

[ChrisN]

10 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

This advert from 1899 may be of interest

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Thank you.  That is very interesting.  Can I ask where you found that as the site which has the newspapers of Wales only has the Barmouth Advertiser from a later date, I think.

 

Still, not a lot of milk.

[Donw]

I was going to suggest Dyffryn as there were cows next to a campsite there. I think GWR siphons may have worked through to Pwllheli now whether they were taking milk away or other produce I cannot say. I cannot imagine they were bringing much in to Gwynedd. Milk from Bala/Corwen areas is possible.

 

Don

[MikeOxon]

12 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Mike,

Thank you.  That is very interesting.  Can I ask where you found that as the site which has the newspapers of Wales only has the Barmouth Advertiser from a later date, I think.

 

Still, not a lot of milk.

Perhaps Mr Price knows Mr M G Williams and could find out more?

[Morello Cherry]

On the subject of adverts. I may have mentioned that I have acquired from a late friend a turn of the century scrapbook with postcards from North Wales. While clearing the flat I found an 1892 Guidebook to North Wales entitled 'The Gossiping Guide to North Wales' - think  Victorian Rough Guide. There is a long section on Barmouth and some adverts from Barmouth. I've scanned the adverts and can scan the rest if people are interested. The scans aren't the greatest but the book is pretty fragile and I don't want to damage it.

 

 

[ChrisN]

5 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

On the subject of adverts. I may have mentioned that I have acquired from a late friend a turn of the century scrapbook with postcards from North Wales. While clearing the flat I found an 1892 Guidebook to North Wales entitled 'The Gossiping Guide to North Wales' - think  Victorian Rough Guide. There is a long section on Barmouth and some adverts from Barmouth. I've scanned the adverts and can scan the rest if people are interested. The scans aren't the greatest but the book is pretty fragile and I don't want to damage it.

 

 

 

Thank you they are very interesting.

 

I note W. J. Morris says its terms are cash, and that it will forward anything bought to any station in the UK.  This gets round the get out of, 'No dear, how could we manage all those new cloths going home, the two trunks and five cases are just not big enough.'

Edited June 19, 2023 by ChrisN

[Morello Cherry]

Because I was doing this in a hurry yesterday I missed another page of Barmouth adverts.

 

(And on the subject of Trunks and bags as well)

[Morello Cherry]

Just posted for interest, this is the review of Barmouth. Praising its sewage and water system and the bridge. I found the fact that there were steamer tours from Portmadoc (sic) and Aberystwyth interesting. 

[ChrisN]

I am working my way through 23 pages of articles about milk from the Cambrian and Merioneth Advertiser from 1894 or 1895, which is about 230 articles.  No I am not reading them all, just perusing the extracts, and then looking further if they are relevant.  You may wonder why I am so interested in this, after all, I have only built a milk cart.  Well, I find it interesting, but also for me it adds to the atmosphere and the background.  Hopefully, however good or bad the modelling is, the model will have a sense of history and place about it.  Also, if I get it wrong I shall get it in the neck from Mr Price.

 

I have been building the horse drawn vehicles in the 'Fun and Friendship' group on a Wednesday, after I have been beaten at Scrabble as they are small and easy to do, but I may just change to doing the ridge tiles on the station as they are desperately needing doing.  (It may be summer now but it is Wales and the roof still leaks.)  I am also at the point where I may just be able to take all the wires I have and connect them up to make my point motors work.

 

Enough of that, you say, what about some pictures?

 

 

These I have shown before and bought them after a helpful post by @Edwardian.   First the delivery van.

 

 

I cannot do a blow by blow account as I am not doing it at home, but half way through it looked like this.  It went together very easily, and it has very little flash.  It was glued using super glue.  The sides of the van are a bit pitied, so either I will need to use some filler or I will use a paper sign on the side.

 

 

This is it finished, very quickly as it happened , and it is posed with a Dart Castings Trade Horse.  The horse next to it is a Langley one from their three horse delivery cart.  Next is the horse that came with it which I am not too happy about as I think its proportions do not look right, the head is too small I think, although it does not look too bad there.  Next is a Langley horse from a Brougham, and then one from a farmers tumbril.  I am hoping to get enough different horses for the vehicles I have.  Maybe have to cut a few about.  (That may push the date into service back a bit.)

 

 

This is the flat dray, and needed a little more cleaning up, especially to get the insert for the from axle to fit the hole.

 

 

Picture of the seat and foot rest.

 

 

Loaded with sacks from Dart Casting, as the picture I have previously shown.  I have not had time to add the horse and stand a lady in front of it so that it looks as though it only has three wheels.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited June 25, 2023 by ChrisN
Added link to picture

[ChrisN]

More horsey stories.  Inspired by this picture I bought these:-

 

 

Carts for small horses.  On the right is a Langley tumbril which will also find employment somewhere on the layout.  These were not very expensive and are made from card.

 

 

They give you double the amount of wheels and springs, and the springs are marked only on one side, so I assumed that you glued two together.  The instructions are quite good but do not tell you to do this, neither do they tell you that there are excess parts.  As it is card I started by using 'Tacky Glue' which I have used for card before but it gives no time for adjustments, so I went to PVA, which was mostly ok.

 

 

Fairly early on with the first one.

 

 

You can see the double springs.  I did wonder why they did not fir the whole designed for them.

 

I finally twigged when I realised there were 8 hubs and you only used 2 of them.

 

 

The second one is on the left, with single springs and single wheels.  

 

 

They are not particularly robust.

 

 

View from below.  The instructions say to glue the hubs on first, near the start of the build, but actually this can mean the hole in the wheel gets filled with glue and you have difficulty fixing the wheel on the axle.  Double wheel and springs are obvious, must use that one for heavy trunks.

 

I think, although not completely certain, that I have enough horse drawn vehicles now, and they will be finished off and painted at my leisure.  I just need to find enough horses, although I may need to cut some about for different poses.  I always wanted to be the first to model a nosebag, but @Mikkel beat me to it by several years.  (Not even a photo finish!)

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Carts for small horses. 

 

Is this not putting the cart before the horse? Or the horse before the cart? Or something that expresses inappropriateness...

 

Surely first has to find the appropriately-sized cart for the job in hand, then looks for the right size of horse (or horses) to pull it?

[ChrisN]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Is this not putting the cart before the horse? Or the horse before the cart? Or something that expresses inappropriateness...

 

Surely first has to find the appropriately-sized cart for the job in hand, then looks for the right size of horse (or horses) to pull it?

 

Stephen,

It is a play on words as you probably realise, what should be read as Small 'Horse Cart', I have read as 'Small Horse' Cart.  Strange name anyway as I have seen them referred to as dung carts or farmers carts.

[Graham T]

This springs to mind...

 

 

[Sasquatch]

Thought it was going to be a big horse and cart.

Turns out, it was a small pony and trap! 

 

Sorry! It's not usually me lowering the tone.

Regards Shaun.

[westerhamstation]

Hi Chris, this is what happens if you don't read the instructions properly. All the best Adrian.

 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, westerhamstation said:

Hi Chris, this is what happens if you don't read the instructions properly. All the best Adrian.

 

I think the horse read them absolutely correctly....

[ChrisN]

As you know I always see one project to its bitter end before starting another.  In the light of this I have not only been wiring up my points, (a few wires short of a signaller's picnic), and putting ridge tiles on the station building.  I had some time the other evening, a late evening so not the time for physical modelling, so I tackled the Cambrian Saloon Third.  If yon remember I had used standard Silhouette shapes which when it was cut, was a bit wobbly on the straight lines.  

 

What I had to do was break the shapes up so it meant between corners deleting the straight lines between them and redrawing them, so a shape has separate sides and round corners.  To do this I copied each type of shape then changed the colour of the shapes I was going to replace.  I modified the shapes I had copied and then pasted them back onto the diagram.  This way the new shapes are exactly on top of the old ones so everything is in the correct place.  I then selected the colour I had changed the original shapes to, and deleted them, leaving the modified diagram behind.  Today I cut it.

 

 

Mostly fine, much better than last time, except for the top row.

 

 

I have not bothered to cut out all the windows.  You would not believe that all the lines on the diagram are actually toughing, also we have some wobbles.  It is noticeable that the thin lines for the end panels are in fact alright.  Before trying to modify again I thought I would try cutting this again with just one pass rather than two.

 

 

 

 

One pass does not cut through.

 

Received wisdom is that thicknesses between lines of 0.5mm should be alright.  The lines between the windows and panels are 0.5mm or a little larger.  I obviously need to make this gap wider.  On my MSLR coaches the gap was about 1mm, so I will try and go towards that.  I can either,

 

1) move the panels up a bit but there is not much room,

2) narrow the panels but they are only about 2mm to start with, or

3) move the windows down, but that would mean moving them all in unison.

 

Fun times ahead, and remember, this is a late night occupation when other modelling is not happening.

 

In other news the G40 and E25 will need similar major modifications, and how the lights on the clerestory will cut I do not know.  Perhaps I will have to think of another way.  Perhaps I will have to cut the square lights by hand.

 

Thinks, if I do not cut the top of the windows, but did those afterwards by hand, would that work?  Umm.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[ChrisN]

So today I thought I would try the easy option, that of cutting the side without the top of the window, which would mean cutting that myself, but at least I would be in control of that.  (Why not cut the whole thing yourself I hear you say- not now I have a cutter!)  I also found an old sheet that I had not cut, only scored, and it seemed to be perfect.  Well, marked out correctly but no where near cut through.  Also, the plasticard was in landscape, so I wondered if I had cut it with the sides vertical and not horizontal.  I doubt that I did, but I decided to cut two sets of sides, one horizontal without the top of the window and a complete vertical set.

 

Now being a good scientist, well a passable one anyway, I know that you should only change one thing at once.  Now @MikeOxon had queried if the plastic was slipping.  I thought not, but I checked the roller and although I think it was locked it was just a little off so might have been not tight enough.  I looked for fresh plasticard and found a sheet that said 10 on it.  (I mark all my sheets it makes it easier, honest.)  It seemed a little thick but I checked it against some known 10 thou and it seemed alright.

 

I set the printer to cut and it did not go quite through.  I thought that maybe it had only done one pass, but no, I had set it to two.  I checked the thickness again and it was thicker than 10 thou.  (Must have grown during cutting.)  I think it must be 15 thou.  I have only bought 15 thou for use by my wife and I thought that was all stored upstairs.  Never mind, I just had to carefully remove the windows and panels.  So how was it?

 

 

It worked!  These are the sides that were cut horizontally.  Not perfect, but at normal viewing distance.....

 

 

This is the one without the top of the windows cut.

 

I am a little disappointed, as I have not really found out what the problem was.  It could have been,

1) Due to being cut on thicker card

2) Due to my completely locking the roller

3) Being cut horizontally

 

I am leaning towards 1.

 

So, time for laminations.  Top two layers on each side laminated, and bottom two sides on each side laminated and all placed under glass for three days to hold them together and keep them flat.

 

 

They are in there.  The ladies of the Dolgelley Temperance Association are quite pleased and in lieu of actually sitting in it decided to sit on top and wait.

 

I have the impression this will be a quick build, but as soon as I thought that I took myself off and gave myself a good talking to, as there is always more to do than think.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

Edited July 8, 2023 by ChrisN