Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Quarryscapes]

I replied to this thread on my phone but is hasn't registered it seems. Yet another forum gremlin. I'll try and remember what I said!

 

The van in the dragon models kit matches drawing 9023 in body, but has grease axleboxes (actually the axleboxes and buffers supplied should both be binned). It is very similar to van no. 951. The p and c in the abbreviations are for pipe and cylinder, referencing whetehr they were fitted or only through piped. As far as I can ascertain, stock that had the plain old lever brakes would be piped only and vac brakes were only applied to clasp fitted vehicles, but the presence of clasp brakes in itself does not infer vacuum fitting. I also surmise that Morton brakes on a Cambrian drawing actually means single side lever brakes and not the familiar cam clutch thing we would automatically assume. The Cambrian had their own ideas about brake levers on the other side with the levers both being at the same end of the wagon. The only morton brake in the sense we'd know it I've seen is on a GWR repainted Camrbian timber truck, and the alterations were crudely added to the original brake system and were certainly not original fit, and IMO not likely done by the Cambrian. 

 

The book reference for the brake van is indeed the Mawddwy, Van and Kerry Branches, in which such a van appears in 2 photos. You'll have seen them before, they are the oft trotted out 0-4-0ST at Kerry shots. The drawing I used is Cambrian No. 1 of February 1898. 

 

My one piece wagons won't be available through shapeways as their QC is awful. I will be ordering them with Supports to prevent their chimps from making a mess of them, checking them over and posting them myself. It's not at all hard to remove the supports ad make good the attachment points, and results in very good quality wagons if all goes well with Shapeways - there is always a little luck involved with that! I don't know of any dumb buffered 2 planks, fixed or dropside, but the sprung buffer design goes back to the 1870s. 

 

I've also finally sorted out the Cambrian buffer stop, which I'll add to my 3D printed wares once finalised.

 

 

 

[Quarryscapes]

Thought you might like to see this - progress from Left to right:

 

Dragon Models van, still haven't put a proper livery on it. Initial Coast Line Casting masters: failed attempt in grey, reprint of same. Then There's one with W-irons and v hangers in place to see if it could be done, then more casting masters - the one on the right is the final article just waiting to be finished off. The one next to it is good but is missing a rivet! 

 

[ChrisN]

I replied to this thread on my phone but is hasn't registered it seems. Yet another forum gremlin. I'll try and remember what I said!

 

Hope replying like this is not too confusing.  Thank you for taking the trouble to reply twice.

 

The van in the dragon models kit matches drawing 9023 in body, but has grease axleboxes (actually the axleboxes and buffers supplied should both be binned). It is very similar to van no. 951.

 

What do you suggest I replace them with? 

 

The p and c in the abbreviations are for pipe and cylinder, referencing whetehr they were fitted or only through piped.

 

I assume they were fitted to be added to passenger trains.  It does look from the photos that I have seen that there are only brakes on one side so that is how I will do them.

 

As far as I can ascertain, stock that had the plain old lever brakes would be piped only and vac brakes were only applied to clasp fitted vehicles, but the presence of clasp brakes in itself does not infer vacuum fitting. I also surmise that Morton brakes on a Cambrian drawing actually means single side lever brakes and not the familiar cam clutch thing we would automatically assume. The Cambrian had their own ideas about brake levers on the other side with the levers both being at the same end of the wagon. The only morton brake in the sense we'd know it I've seen is on a GWR repainted Camrbian timber truck, and the alterations were crudely added to the original brake system and were certainly not original fit, and IMO not likely done by the Cambrian. 

 

The book reference for the brake van is indeed the Mawddwy, Van and Kerry Branches, in which such a van appears in 2 photos. You'll have seen them before, they are the oft trotted out 0-4-0ST at Kerry shots.

 

Thank you, I have found it and anyway it was only used on the Kerry.  (Saved me trying to get the book.)

 

The drawing I used is Cambrian No. 1 of February 1898. 

 

1898 would be too late.  I am not sure I have seen any photos of the early brake vans.  Is there any information about the earlier ones?  Or, is the date the drawing date that refers to earlier vehicles?

 

 

My one piece wagons won't be available through shapeways as their QC is awful. I will be ordering them with Supports to prevent their chimps from making a mess of them, checking them over and posting them myself. It's not at all hard to remove the supports ad make good the attachment points, and results in very good quality wagons if all goes well with Shapeways - there is always a little luck involved with that! I don't know of any dumb buffered 2 planks, fixed or dropside, but the sprung buffer design goes back to the 1870s. 

 

Thank you. 

 

I've also finally sorted out the Cambrian buffer stop, which I'll add to my 3D printed wares once finalised.

 

camtrack2.png

camtrack3.png

camtrack4.png

 

This started off as a simple aside while I made coaches so my wife would not have given me yet another kit which would go into the 'to do' pile.  I also thought that scratchbuilding a brake van could be an add on to the next lot of coaches.  It has proved more complicated than that so far but very interesting.

[Quarryscapes]

This started off as a simple aside while I made coaches so my wife would not have given me yet another kit which would go into the 'to do' pile.  I also thought that scratchbuilding a brake van could be an add on to the next lot of coaches.  It has proved more complicated than that so far but very interesting.

 

Don't worry, nothing is straightforward on the Cambrian! 

 

Grease boxes can be found in my Shapeways shop (naturally!) Packs of any size can be catered for if you feel a big stock of Cambrian wagons building! Buffer bodies I have here and on Shapeways.(for sprung buffers) 

 

That style of brake van was certainly around before 1895, the van in the photo (No. 37) is to that design and was supposedly built in 1894. There were some detail variances though - I have a pic of the rear of one with V bracing on the end not present in the 1898 drawing. Another appears in the back of a photo in Oswestry works with some interesting side bracing, hinting at double width hinged doors.  I've found a better print, the Brake is No. 13 of 1888 and has a strange arrangement of side bracing, but no side doors.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Quarryscapes

[ChrisN]

Don't worry, nothing is straightforward on the Cambrian! 

 

Grease boxes can be found in my Shapeways shop (naturally!) Packs of any size can be catered for if you feel a big stock of Cambrian wagons building! Buffer bodies I have here and on Shapeways.(for sprung buffers) 

 

That style of brake van was certainly around before 1895, the van in the photo (No. 37) is to that design and was supposedly built in 1894. There were some detail variances though - I have a pic of the rear of one with V bracing on the end not present in the 1898 drawing. Another appears in the back of a photo in Oswestry works with some interesting side bracing, hinting at double width hinged doors.  I've found a better print, the Brake is No. 13 of 1888 and has a strange arrangement of side bracing, but no side doors.

 

Thank you again.

I have seen your buffers but I was not sure you were still selling your axleboxes as I thought there had been problems.  I am assuming that wagon axleboxes and coach axleboxes are different.

 

Are we talking about the Kerry brake van or the drawing, or are they one and the same?  Sorry I am confused.

[Quarryscapes]

Thank you again.

I have seen your buffers but I was not sure you were still selling your axleboxes as I thought there had been problems.  I am assuming that wagon axleboxes and coach axleboxes are different.

 

Are we talking about the Kerry brake van or the drawing, or are they one and the same?  Sorry I am confused.

 

 Talking Cambrian O/S framed brake vans in general, the Kerry one was nothing unique, it was just brake van No. 37.  

 

HMRS have an interesting drawing, no preview but it sounds intriguing enough I might get a copy! 

 

Goods Brake, 9ft w/b, 15ft 6ins o/b;  General Arrangement  dwg. no. 4273 Dated 1864-04-05

HMRS No. 27956 

 

Also:

 

Goods Brake, 9ft 4½ins w/b, 16ft 6ins o/b;  General Arrangement

HMRS No. 26194 

[NCB]

Any ideas on how early the flush-sided vans were? I've drawings for two, both signed off by Herbert Jones, drawings 1187 and 1153. 1153 has TWO dates, 9.4.1902 and 27.5.08. 1187 has a single date 7/6/09. I'm wondering if the dates don't mean what you'd think they mean.

 

The most obvious difference between the vans is that one has 6 1/4" planking, the other 8" planking. How many did they have?

 

These are NRM/OPC numbers 8206 and 8207.

[ChrisN]

 

 Talking Cambrian O/S framed brake vans in general, the Kerry one was nothing unique, it was just brake van No. 37.  

 

HMRS have an interesting drawing, no preview but it sounds intriguing enough I might get a copy! 

 

Goods Brake, 9ft w/b, 15ft 6ins o/b;  General Arrangement  dwg. no. 4273 Dated 1864-04-05

HMRS No. 27956 

 

Also:

 

Goods Brake, 9ft 4½ins w/b, 16ft 6ins o/b;  General Arrangement

HMRS No. 26194 

 

 

Alan,

Talking Cambrian brake vans in particular, if I had one of yours when available, or scratchbuilt one myself, or both, I would not be out of period?

 

The first drawing corresponds to nothing on the wagon list but it might be the one in the picture at the top of page 34 in Cambrian Railways Album Vol , sitting in front of the Parliamentary coach.

 

The second appears to be the outside frame single verandah brake vans, but you probably know this already.  I have those on my list to get sometime.

[ChrisN]

Any ideas on how early the flush-sided vans were? I've drawings for two, both signed off by Herbert Jones, drawings 1187 and 1153. 1153 has TWO dates, 9.4.1902 and 27.5.08. 1187 has a single date 7/6/09. I'm wondering if the dates don't mean what you'd think they mean.

 

The most obvious difference between the vans is that one has 6 1/4" planking, the other 8" planking. How many did they have?

 

These are NRM/OPC numbers 8206 and 8207.

 

Hi,

They both appear to be 18ft long with a 10ft w/b so if they are both single verandah then they were built between 1902 and 1909.  There were seven of them altogether.

[Quarryscapes]

Hi,

They both appear to be 18ft long with a 10ft w/b so if they are both single verandah then they were built between 1902 and 1909.  There were seven of them altogether.

 

And I believe they don't conform exactly to any of the surviving drawings. I guess Swindon grabbed a bunch that looked about right to sort out later. 

 

Chris My outside framed van certainly looks like No. 37 built in 1894. I can't be certain it is identical as it was 4 years before more were ordered and seemingly a new drawing produced. By the same hand I can't  be sure that many of the earlier vans weren't also identical, though my gut feeling tells me the sliding door was new at that time and that the older vans have the weird framing I alluded to previously - they are all very camera shy! 

 

This is the one I'm working on, seen in an ebay listing: 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Quarryscapes

[ChrisN]

And I believe they don't conform exactly to any of the surviving drawings. I guess Swindon grabbed a bunch that looked about right to sort out later. 

 

Chris My outside framed van certainly looks like No. 37 built in 1894. I can't be certain it is identical as it was 4 years before more were ordered and seemingly a new drawing produced. By the same hand I can't  be sure that many of the earlier vans weren't also identical, though my gut feeling tells me the sliding door was new at that time and that the older vans have the weird framing I alluded to previously - they are all very camera shy! 

 

I will have to work on the basis that if someone who was there tells me it is wrong I will change it.

 

Talking of camera shy.  I got Machynlleth to Barmouth for Christmas, and on picture 52 there is a Cambrian brake van.  Not unusual you would think except that the picture was taken in 1962, which surprised me.

 

Edit:  55 not 52

Edited January 6, 2017 by ChrisN

[NCB]

I will have to work on the basis that if someone who was there tells me it is wrong I will change it.

 

Talking of camera shy.  I got Machynlleth to Barmouth for Christmas, and on picture 52 there is a Cambrian brake van.  Not unusual you would think except that the picture was taken in 1962, which surprised me.

 

Chris

 

Not in the C. C. Green book. Is there another "Machynlleth to Barmouth"?

 

Cheers

Nigel

[ChrisN]

Chris

 

Not in the C. C. Green book. Is there another "Machynlleth to Barmouth"?

 

Cheers

Nigel

 

Nigel,

(Sorry I think I called you Steve earlier).  In the Middleton Press book.  It is image 55 not 52; I was doing it from memory which is always risky.

 

Edit:  It may of course just be a Toad from the back end.

Edited January 6, 2017 by ChrisN

[Quarryscapes]

The last Cambrian brakes went in 1957. Is there any worthwhile pre group content in the Middleton books?

[ChrisN]

The last Cambrian brakes went in 1957. Is there any worthwhile pre group content in the Middleton books?

 

Yes, I obviously made a mistake with the brake van. 

 

The Middleton books will have some pre group photos but usually ones already known about.  They will include a brief history of the station, including when signal boxes opened and closed and how many levers they had.  They usually have an early OS map of the station.  So the answer is, not a lot.  However the later pictures are ones I generally have not seen.

[Quarryscapes]

There must be thousands of pre grouping photos crying to be published but we will never see them because of the obsession of folks of pushing the 50s and 60s as the be all and end all of the steam era.

[NCB]

I'm still sick that C. C. Green didn't complete his Cambrian series. I gather he'd largely drafted the remaining volumes, and had made arrangements for somebody to complete them if he couldn't, but it fell apart after he died. The volume on Oswestry works would have been gold to anyone interested in the rolling stock. I believe bits of his collection of pics appear on ebay from time to time.

Edited January 8, 2017 by NCB

[corneliuslundie]

As I understand it his material was almost all sent to auction and a lot of it was bought by a few people. Some has been seen again but a lot has not. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

There do seem to be a number of people in the railway history field who collect and wish to keep everything they have private rather than use it to help others. Not on here of course. That is the delight of RMWeb.

Jonathan

[NCB]

As I understand it his material was almost all sent to auction and a lot of it was bought by a few people. Some has been seen again but a lot has not. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

There do seem to be a number of people in the railway history field who collect and wish to keep everything they have private rather than use it to help others. Not on here of course. That is the delight of RMWeb.

Jonathan

 

That was my understanding as well - that it went to auction, over a period of time. Would that it had gone to the WRRC!

Nigel

[Penlan]

A lot of C.C. Greens prints went to the HMRS, especially the G.M.Perkins Collection.

 

One has to remember that C.C.Green travelled around a lot in Wales and his transport was basically a 'camper van' / 'photographic studio', and a lot of the prints we see, are copies from originals he found by knocking on doors and chatting to the owners, which if they had old railway photo's, he then took out to his Mobile Studio and copied.  We of course are very lucky he did this, but, like myself where I have copies of G.M.Perkins photo's from long, long ago, the HMRS claims the copyrights (of what were originally mostly copies).

Agreed a few of G.M.Perkins are originals from whole plate negatives, which where found as glazing for allotment cold frames.

Both Selwyn Pearce-Higgins and J.I.C.Boyd was also great preservers of photo's taken in Wales.  
I understand P-H's are at the NRM.
Mike Morton-Lloyd was also a prolific photographer in Wales, and these are in the WRRC archives.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Penlan

[corneliuslundie]

In fact the HMRS is very careful about claiming copyright now. If you look at the website for the vast majority of photos it says copyright unknown or similar.

Many of the photos in the collection were obtained by Jack Slinn in a similar manner to that apparently used by C C Green, and there is usually little idea who owned the originals.

What I find difficult is organisations claiming copyright of photos over 120 years old. Gloucestershire archives has the Gloucester RCW Co collection and demands reproduction fees even for photos taken by the company in the 1880s. They use a model document drawn up by the regional county archives association so I rather fear that this situation will spread - £50 a time even for charities.

And the NRM seems to try to claim copyright for anything it lays its hands on. An example is the Burtt collection. Burtt was self employed but acted as official photographer for the LB&SCR in the 19th century. He died in about 1949 so his photographs are just in copyright still, but even those he took in the 19th century and became Brighton officials are regarded by the NRM as its copyright even though the LB&SCR ceased to exist at Grouping. This has not mattered until recently as the NRM has been very generous about societies and charities using its photos, but things are changing as it gets more and more strapped for cash.

Rant over

Jonathan

[Simond]

I suppose if someone were to legally challenge this assumption of copyright, the potential costs would be significant for both parties. A credible threat might make them reconsider their policies.

 

Then again, they might just say, "sorry, if we have such material, it's unavailable for public research as it's archived for cost reasons" - and then we're all stuck.

 

Probably just have to smile & pay

Simon

[MikeOxon]

A lot of holders of old photos charge a 'reproduction fee'.  Copyright may not apply but, if they have possession, they can charge you to look.

 

Copyright law is a minefield.  Although the current UK law asserts copyright for 70 years after the death of the photographer, this law only dates from 1988.  Before that, the earlier law allowed for copyright for 50 years after the taking of the photo.  Since, once something has gone into the public domain, it cannot be 're-copyrighted' then any photo made before 1938 would have seen its copyright lapse before the 1988 Act.  If someone wants to dispute one's own use of a photo, then its up to them to prove they really do own the copyright.

Edited January 10, 2017 by MikeOxon

[NCB]

I think the "own personal use" agreement which you need to sign to get access to say stuff from the NRM is fairly watertight; they may not own the copyright but they can dictate the terms under which you access the material they hold.  However, agreements which cover stuff destined, say, for publication in a book aren't watertight in the same way. If a pic is published in a book and is also out of copyright then it's effectively in the public domain.

 

Think the important thing anyway is that stuff in collections is recorded so that it can be determined what is available, and that there is a means of accessing it when required. If that's the case, then a moderate fee doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

Nigel

[Quarryscapes]

I bought a load of the WRRC's C.C. Green prints from ebay, thinking that Mr. Green had the original prints and/or negatives - when a hell of a lot turned out to have been copied from books, very badly in some cases, not helped by the WRRCs prints being digital rather than darkroom. (digitising the negatives, if indeed there were negatives, or prints introduces yet more quality loss) I'm now a lot more wary of what I buy from WRRC prints!