Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Impressed! What colour did you use for the lower sides?

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  I meant to put in the text the sides are Revell 65 Bronze Green.  There is a thread in the Pre-grouping section and it was decided that this colour was about right.  However since then it has come to light that someone has a tin of original Cambrian green coach paint and it is nearly brown so maybe the Phoenix Cambrian green is the right colour.  I have already painted one coach in this colour so for consistency have decided to stick with it.   

[ChrisN]

Impressed! What colour did you use for the lower sides?

 

 

these look splendid.  I hope that you are basking in a well-earned glow of satisfaction

 

 

They are looking really good, keep it up! 

 

Thank you, and thank you everyone who has left ratings.  I am quite pleased with them especially as they are the first scratchbuilt coaches I have made.  I see all the little niggles but have got better at using photos that do not show them.     I have learnt a lot and thank you to everyone for their help and encouragement.  Just the glazing and final inside paintwork.

[Donw]

Did I read it correctly you fitted the glazing while typing up you post?  Looks very good. About the colour There is probably no one who remembers the exact colour in 1895. There were some cases of colour changes with WW1 when the use of German Varnishes became less popular for some reason....  So I don't think it worth getting worked up over the exact shade.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

Did I read it correctly you fitted the glazing while typing up you post?  Looks very good. About the colour There is probably no one who remembers the exact colour in 1895. There were some cases of colour changes with WW1 when the use of German Varnishes became less popular for some reason....  So I don't think it worth getting worked up over the exact shade.

 

Don

 

Don,

I fitted some glazing in between typing, or perhaps I did some typing in between glazing.  Pictures when I have finished, including the final paint.

 

I am fairly happy with the colour; I think they will go well with invisible green engines.  It is not too dissimilar from their building colour either.

[MikeOxon]

.................. have got better at using photos that do not show them. 

 

A very important part of the learning curve

[Simond]

If there is anyone still around who remembers the colour, they'd now be somewhat older than 122, and probably don't use the www....

 

(You can just imagine the post, probably in Welsh, telling me off for being an impertinent young man, in suggesting they were too old to learn new tricks )

 

Best

Simon (not a day under 59...)

[aberdare]

Great work Chris.

 

The coat of paint has made a great difference to the finish and you now have a rake of coaches to be proud of, superb.

 

Now you have reminded me I still have mine to finish.

 

Jim

[ChrisN]

If there is anyone still around who remembers the colour, they'd now be somewhat older than 122, and probably don't use the www....

 

(You can just imagine the post, probably in Welsh, telling me off for being an impertinent young man, in suggesting they were too old to learn new tricks )

 

Best

Simon (not a day under 59...)

 

Simon,

The interesting thing is this can of paint that was acquired in the early 50s I think that was apparently a can of the original and was more brown.  We could, but please let us not, get into discussions about how well paint keeps, was it original, when was it made and anything else you could think of.  It is possible that some coaches were painted in the green up until 1922 or maybe shortly after when the GWR repainted them, but that means the person would, to be an honest witness would need to have been about 10 then, which makes them 104.  I have just checked on Google for the oldest people in the country and there are 155 107 and older with none in Wales.  I think I am fairly safe from eyewitnesses. 

 

I must take a picture of the coach next to the down shelter as a comparison of the greens.

[Mikkel]

I think I am fairly safe from eyewitnesses.

 

Ahem!

 

Despite your blatant oversight of "the little people", Mr M. Price reluctantly admits that your rendering of the carriage colours is quite precise.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Mikkel

[ChrisN]

 

Ahem!

 

 

Despite your blatant oversight of "the little people", Mr M. Price reluctantly admits that your rendering of the carriage colours is quite precise.

 

Mikkel,

I was trying not to mention Mr Price who is of course a reliable eye witness from 1895, and has aged remarkably well, in fact not at all.

[Penlan]

If there is anyone still around who remembers the colour,    

 

I believe both the NRM and a private collector have  original Cambrian Rlys plaques that have the 'green' coach colour 

and coat of arms on them...  Of course this then leads onto Varnish discolouring over time etc.,

Having seen one of the plaques, I'm more tempted towards a Bronze Green,

or perhaps as Miss Prism might say, 'Cambrian Improved Green'.  

Of course the Green colour will be in the eye of the beholder.  So people like John Miles on RMweb who is colour blind, will not be a lot of help.  I have different hues in my eyes, my left eye will discern a colour brightly, the right eye makes a colour look dull.

 

I've mentioned it elsewhere on RMweb, probably back in the mists of time, but in another life I was involved in trying to match colours through an international forum and the only source we could find, and be readily available to lay people in Oz, India, Colombia etc.,, was the Stanley Gibbons Stamps colour charts.  But you can't match, say, the LNWR Coach colours to that, and indeed we had troubles matching colours too, ending up with additional terms like " ... it's halfway between x & z, but perhaps a hint of y..".   And finally, a stand alone colour looks different when applied against (adjacent) another colour.  

[MikeOxon]

 ....................   And finally, a stand alone colour looks different when applied against (adjacent) another colour.  

 

I wrote about this once (or twice) before.  See  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92818-gwr-wolverhampton-livery/&do=findComment&comment=1671049

Edited February 8, 2017 by MikeOxon

[Penlan]

I wrote about this once before.  

And I've read it before, too....   

What comes around, goes around......   TiC >> What? only the once?.

[corneliuslundie]

"And finally, a stand alone colour looks different when applied against (adjacent) another colour."

Distance also has an effect.

And colours will also look different under different light sources - both colour rendering index and colour temperature. One problem with modern artificial light sources is that many do not have a continuous spectrum like that of daylight, so there may be gaps which affect some colours but not others. 

The technical term is metamerism.

So be careful always to paint your models under the same light source as you will use for the layout.

With photos you usually do not know what light source was used. And that is quite apart from the colour shift as the slides or negatives deteriorate over the years.

So it is much better to model the 19th century when there was no colour photography to confuse matters, no-one around to tell you "it wasn't like that" and there are very few reliable sources of the original colours. Even colour samples gleaned from paint chips taken from old vehicles are suspect because you don't know how long the paint was exposed to the light (and the atmosphere) before it was covered by the next layer.

So unless Mr Price can tell you the colour is wrong you are safe.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

There were long long discussions on RMEMag, lost now I think as the site went down, (it is up now although I am not sure about archives.)  Any old way, as my gran would say, there were long discussions about perception, reproduction, size etc. etc.  As I am not going to try and paint everything in grey, I will stick with what I have.  It is interesting that the Station Colours website is fairly certain that Cambrian stations were in British Road Services Green, and white.  I can only assume that the GWR did not immediately paint every Cambrian station in their colours and so the knowledge of what the colours were survived longer.  I will put a comparison picture up but BRS green appears brighter than the bronze green I used for the coaches.  (Mr Price says the coaches, "Look lovely".)

[NCB]

My approach is to do what I think is right, based on the description. Colours on a damp damp with grey skies overhead (typical Cambrian?) look quite different from the same colours on a sunny day; for a start, black often actually looks black.

 

Saw an O gauge Cambrian coach at some show, at least 20 years ago; it was superb. To my eye the green said "bronze green". From memory it was darkish but not dull, with just a hint of bronze. Can't say which eye; my two are also slightly different!

 

Keep intending to visit Penrhyn Castle museum again, to see if they still have the large scale model of a Jones 4-4-0 built (in 1904 I think) by the Oswestry apprentices. You'd expect them to get the livery right! Of course it might have faded over 112 years.

[Donw]

You cannot trust your eyes I don't no about colour but if I hold two eggs in my hand the one on the left looks larger swap them round and it is still the one on the left that looks larger. Both eggs cannot be larger. With colour the reception of different colours may vary in strength we have no real idea whether we perceive colours the same so descriptions may means little. 

Don

[ChrisN]

My wife:  You know my blue top?

Me: No.

My wife: Yes you do, look I'll get it. 

Me:  That's green!

[Simond]

be careful!!  at least one of the colour receptor genes that control vision is sex-linked to the x chromosome.  That is to say that it is likely that your wife has better colour vision than you do! 

 

Women are much less likely (nearly 30 times!) to suffer red-green colour blindness.

 

http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570152.html

 

I'm sure there are other references

 

best

Simon

[NCB]

I've been looking at the Borrowmore Model Railway Group's Johnstown Road Cambrian pics. For locos they seem to use a black with just a hint of green; see:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/jr_locos_Loco44.html

Some of the pics further down seem too green but I think that's just the lighting. I notice that they use a different black for the smokebox and chimney, and maybe the cab roof. Not sure if that's prototypical or not.

 

They don't have many coach pics, but:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/johnstown_road/johnstown_jdf_10.jpg

seems about right, if you allow for the lighting making it look slightly darker than it is.

[Penlan]

.....They don't have many coach pics, but:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/johnstown_road/johnstown_jdf_10.jpg

seems about right, if you allow for the lighting making it look slightly darker than it is.

I think the coach 'white' looks just about right, white with just a tiny drop of greeny-brown in it.

Not pure white.

[ChrisN]

be careful!!  at least one of the colour receptor genes that control vision is sex-linked to the x chromosome.  That is to say that it is likely that your wife has better colour vision than you do! 

 

Women are much less likely (nearly 30 times!) to suffer red-green colour blindness.

 

http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570152.html

 

I'm sure there are other references

 

best

Simon

 

Simon,

I think the colour we disagree about is turquoise.  My main point is that sometimes our understanding of colour is our perception.

Edited February 9, 2017 by ChrisN

[ChrisN]

I've been looking at the Borrowmore Model Railway Group's Johnstown Road Cambrian pics. For locos they seem to use a black with just a hint of green; see:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/jr_locos_Loco44.html

Some of the pics further down seem too green but I think that's just the lighting. I notice that they use a different black for the smokebox and chimney, and maybe the cab roof. Not sure if that's prototypical or not.

 

They don't have many coach pics, but:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/johnstown_road/johnstown_jdf_10.jpg

seems about right, if you allow for the lighting making it look slightly darker than it is.

 

Thank you.  I have seen this site before and think that the whole model is just exceptional.  There is a discussion about Cambrian locos' colour.  In some places it is said to be black but in others Invisible Green, which is what these locos are painted in.  If the colour was Invisible Green then I think the coaches would be more green than brown.  I think the green on the site is not too different from mine.

[ChrisN]

I think the coach 'white' looks just about right, white with just a tiny drop of greeny-brown in it.

Not pure white.

 

I think the white on my coaches will be toned down a bit once the varnish is put on.

[Simond]

Chris,

 

I understand you were discussing green-blue, but there would be a difference in the amount of red in the colour - probably somewhere between "very little" and "not much at all" if measured on an objective colour meter, but your eyes and hers will actually see different things - and on top of this there's your perception of greeny-blue, and hers of bluey-green or vice versa.

 

But in any case, she's probably right

 

Best

Simon