Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[choo1choo]

Evening All,

 

Being a bit thick and old I've only just cottoned on to this thread. I know nothing about Cambrian coach colours but I do know top notch modelling when I see it. Well done indeed Chris.

 

Cheers,

 

Craig.

[Penlan]

I think the white on my coaches will be toned down a bit once the varnish is put on.

I agree...   

[ChrisN]

Chris,

 

I understand you were discussing green-blue, but there would be a difference in the amount of red in the colour - probably somewhere between "very little" and "not much at all" if measured on an objective colour meter, but your eyes and hers will actually see different things - and on top of this there's your perception of greeny-blue, and hers of bluey-green or vice versa.

 

But in any case, she's probably right

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon,

I agree with you about the perception, and that my wife is probably right. 

[ChrisN]

Evening All,

 

Being a bit thick and old I've only just cottoned on to this thread. I know nothing about Cambrian coach colours but I do know top notch modelling when I see it. Well done indeed Chris.

 

Cheers,

 

Craig.

 

Craig,

Thank you very much.  It is a painfully slow thread as I do not get much time but if you plough through it you will find gems of wisdom from many contributors.  I am quite chuffed how things have been received as it is only two or three years ago, well at the start of this thread that I was looking only to make kits, or at best modify them. 

[Penlan]

Simon,

I agree with you about the perception, and that my wife is probably right. 

Obviously your wife is lenient, 'probably' seems to be a bit relaxed from my experience  

[corneliuslundie]

Another colour issue raised I see. There is a whole science (?) of colour naming. It is very subjective and language dependent. Traditionally in Welsh "glas" was blue or green or anything between. There is a more modern word for green, but I still don't know whether the Tyglas Road i used to live in was named after a blue house or a green one. Other languages have even fewer colour names. And words such as turquoise, khaki etc are very dependent on the user's experience of the colour, and what others called it when they first saw it. 

Last night at club we were experimenting with lighting for our layout. We had two strips of LEDs fixed up along the layout, one 6000 K and the other about 3000 K. The 3000 K set could be dimmed. The change in the appearance of the layout as we shifted the colour balance was enormous. We decided that both full on was about right. They both have the same nominal light output but the 3000 K string seemed notably less bright, a function of the eye's sensitivity to the different wavelengths. Of course none of the combinations was actually anything like daylight, but since the layout was built under White fluorescent tubes that is irrelevant.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

Pick a bronze green.  Any bronze green.  And that will be how Cambrian green looked on the day and in the weather/lighting conditions depicted on your layout.

[ChrisN]

Here we go, a comparison between the coach bronze green and BRS Green ob the station.

 

The light today was awful, in fact it was quite dull so I nearly did not do this but with the curtains open and light streaming in the veluxes I took this shot.

 

 

Even with the poor light the green on the coach I think is a bit bleached.  I then realised that the shelter was in shadow, so after several tries I got this.

 

 

You may be able to see that the BRS green is a brighter green than the Bronze Green, but only in certain lights.  It is a clear indication of all that has been said about colour both here and elsewhere.  However, it appears to me that the colours are not inconsistent with each other and appear to be from the same railway.

 

NCB linked to a site that showed Cambrian coaches of the same colour but the brake had a red end.  Now I thought, and I am willing to be corrected, that the goods brakes had red ends but I did not think that the passenger ones did.  Either way mine will stay green.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Edwardian]

Here we go, a comparison between the coach bronze green and BRS Green ob the station.

 

The light today was awful, in fact it was quite dull so I nearly did not do this but with the curtains open and light streaming in the veluxes I took this shot.

 

Comparison 1.JPG

 

Even with the poor light the green on the coach I think is a bit bleached.  I then realised that the shelter was in shadow, so after several tries I got this.

 

Comparison 2.JPG

 

You may be able to see that the BRS green is a brighter green than the Bronze Green, but only in certain lights.  It is a clear indication of all that has been said about colour both here and elsewhere.  However, it appears to me that the colours are not inconsistent with each other and appear to be from the same railway.

 

NCB linked to a site that showed Cambrian coaches of the same colour but the brake had a red end.  Now I thought, and I am willing to be corrected, that the goods brakes had red ends but I did not think that the passenger ones did.  Either way mine will stay green.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Brilliant.

 

What a wonderful and unique train you have created.

 

Lovely models of seldom-modelled but characterful prototypes.

 

So glad to see them finished. You should feel a very proud Daddy to them indeed.

 

.... though now, of course, I am worrying that the WNR has unconsciously adopted Cambrian Railways coaching stock livery (!)

[ChrisN]

Brilliant.

 

What a wonderful and unique train you have created.

 

Lovely models of seldom-modelled but characterful prototypes.

 

So glad to see them finished. You should feel a very proud Daddy to them indeed.

 

.... though now, of course, I am worrying that the WNR has unconsciously adopted Cambrian Railways coaching stock livery (!)

 

Maybe, but they are at opposite sides of the country and will never meet so who is to know?

[Edwardian]

Maybe, but they are at opposite sides of the country and will never meet so who is to know?

 

Good point.

 

Yeah, that'll work

[uax6]

But you copied them from the Highland didn't you?

 

They really have a nice texture to them, and I can imagine how sparse they were inside.

Are you going to dirty up the underframes at all?

 

Does this mean that those sides I cut out for you are getting scarily near the top of the to do list Chris?

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

But you copied them from the Highland didn't you?

 

They really have a nice texture to them, and I can imagine how sparse they were inside.

Are you going to dirty up the underframes at all?

 

Does this mean that those sides I cut out for you are getting scarily near the top of the to do list Chris?

 

Andy G

 

A coach on some bloke's NG layout, actually  .....

[ChrisN]

But you copied them from the Highland didn't you?

 

They really have a nice texture to them, and I can imagine how sparse they were inside.

Are you going to dirty up the underframes at all?

 

Does this mean that those sides I cut out for you are getting scarily near the top of the to do list Chris?

 

Andy G

 

Andy,

I think the outside framed coaches were sold, or made by several companies.  I have pictures of them but not as good a picture as the Highland one.

 

I am not sure how much extra dirt I want to put on the underframes.  I am a bit concerned about over doing it.

 

The sides are next on the list.  I have already started to score out the windows etc.  I have been starting the van kit as my wife bought me three for Christmas and I thought I probably ought to at least make something she bought me so I will do them alongside, make them up while the laminations are drying.  I have also got a side project of finishing of a Shirescenes/Ratio  T49 (?).  Then it is Bedders MSLR 4 wheeler, then 3 more scratch built coaches.  Side projects of little people.  Last week when baby sitting got on further with the next cutting file.  That little lot should get me going until Christmas, which at my rate is Christmas 2018.

[Penlan]

Just adding a bit to the discussion on the colour of 'White', though I admit this is LNWR Spilt Milk!!!!!

However I have seen LNWR stock where the upper panels are painted proper white, and they have looked ghastly, for a LNWR livery.

 

The first photo shows some comparisons of Spilt Milk I made back in 1993

I agree the colours may well have changed through acids in the paper they are painted on, and the scanner has not exactly shown the colours I have in front of me (The blue - Precision Paints Mk1 - is brighter in this scan, I thought the colour looked slightly greyer on the test card).
I seem to recall at one time likening LNWR Spilt Milk to be something between Duck Egg Blue and French Grey - Oh what a minefield.

 

 

The second photo taken in 1986, outside in daylight, shows the difference between Precision Mk.1 Spilt Milk and the White roof.

 

 

This was the whole stack of them, all spilt milk Precision Mk.1.

 

 

And finally once all the other colours etc., are added, here we have Precision Mk.1 spilt milk looking almost white. Here the photo is taken under warm white flourescent tubes.  Edit, I think I might take the coach outside a do a daylight photo....

Note to self, "I must get some diners in the coach".

 

 

So white against spilt milk white is different, it can be a lot different.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Oh, to answer a possible Question, the middle coach in the stack, is a pair Ratio 50' all third sides, with the toilets cut off and plain (non-corridor) ends added, the roof was from the brake compo as there's no gas lamp on the corridor side over the Guards van bit - Thus chop off the ends and you have a viable 42' roof for the 42' all third non-corridor coach.  Chassis is cut down 50' too.

[ChrisN]

Just adding a bit to the discussion on the colour of 'White', though I admit this is LNWR Spilt Milk!!!!!

However I have seen LNWR stock where the upper panels are painted proper white, and they have looked ghastly, for a LNWR livery.

 

The first photo shows some comparisons of Spilt Milk I made back in 1993

I agree the colours may well have changed through acids in the paper they are painted on, and the scanner has not exactly shown the colours I have in front of me (The blue - Precision Paints Mk1 - is brighter in this scan, I thought the colour looked slightly greyer on the test card).

I seem to recall at one time likening LNWR Spilt Milk to be something between Duck Egg Blue and French Grey - Oh what a minefield.

 

LNWR White.jpg

 

The second photo taken in 1986, outside in daylight, shows the difference between Precision Mk.1 Spilt Milk and the White roof.

 

White #1.jpg

 

This was the whole stack of them, all spilt milk Precision Mk.1.

 

White.jpg

 

And finally once all the other colours etc., are added, here we have Precision Mk.1 spilt milk looking almost white. Here the photo is taken under warm white flourescent tubes.  Edit, I think I might take the coach outside a do a daylight photo....

Note to self, "I must get some diners in the coach".

 

Coach White.jpg

 

So white against spilt milk white is different, it can be a lot different.

 

 

Oh, to answer a possible Question, the middle coach in the stack, is a pair Ratio 50' all third sides, with the toilets cut off and plain (non-corridor) ends added, the roof was from the brake compo as there's no gas lamp on the corridor side over the Guards van bit - Thus chop off the ends and you have a viable 42' roof for the 42' all third non-corridor coach.  Chassis is cut down 50' too.

 

Penlan,

Thank you.  Illustrating a point and showing some lovely coaches. Precision 1 is Split Milk?  I will need to investigate LNWR coaches as I need some for through coaches.  I have had discussions with AndyG about them as he will be making some on his cutter.  The LNWR, unlike the MSLR had standard sizes so once one file is made others should follow easily. Having drawn one MSLR coach I find that the sizes of the compartments of the next one are different and neither coach has them the 'standard' size.

 

The Ratio coaches are too late for me but perhaps I could convert some.  (At this rate I will have far too many coaches, a few wagons, no engines and no scenery.)

[Penlan]

....... the roof was from the brake compo as there's no gas lamp on the corridor side over the Guards van bit - 

Because the Gas Lamp has an inset into the roof, giving a horizontal platform for the gas lamp to sit into.

Those with the ratio Roofs will understand.

[MikeOxon]

I have read that the LNWR tried to avoid the 'cream' look, by using light blue paint, on the assumption that the varnish would effectively remove the blue tint, to leave white.

[NCB]

 

 

NCB linked to a site that showed Cambrian coaches of the same colour but the brake had a red end.  Now I thought, and I am willing to be corrected, that the goods brakes had red ends but I did not think that the passenger ones did.  Either way mine will stay green.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

Chris, the link was probably to my kit-bashing attempts at Cambrian 6-wheelers using Ratio 4-wheel kits. According to Great Western Way page 222, red ends for passenger brake vans and coaches with brake compartments, starting when the coach livery changed from brown to bronze green.  Discontinued from 1911, a couple of years after the change to all-over green.

 

Nigel

[ChrisN]

Chris, the link was probably to my kit-bashing attempts at Cambrian 6-wheelers using Ratio 4-wheel kits. According to Great Western Way page 222, red ends for passenger brake vans and coaches with brake compartments, starting when the coach livery changed from brown to bronze green.  Discontinued from 1911, a couple of years after the change to all-over green.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

Thank you.  I have not read the Great Western Way but I do not remember reading that in any of the Cambrian books I have.  I will have another read and see if I can find it.  I know about the ends of goods brake vans so maybe I misread it.  I have not seen any pictorial evidence either, but that means nothing as there is very little evidence pictorially of anything.

[Penlan]

ChrisN, the colours are on Page 201 of GW Way - or at least in my 1978 edition.

The red ends are at the top of the first column on page 202.

 

There's also mention of 2 coats of green with a bronze varnish next, finished off with 3 coats of clear varnish.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Penlan

[Donw]

Lovely coaches Chris. I too remember reading about the red ends on brakes only. I thought it had changed with the change to all green. That still wouldn't help you though.

Don

[ChrisN]

Lovely coaches Chris. I too remember reading about the red ends on brakes only. I thought it had changed with the change to all green. That still wouldn't help you though.

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  I have looked through my Cambrian books and found nothing about red ends, but that does not mean it is not there.  'The Story of the Cambrian' by C. P. Gasquoine, (It is FREE on the Gutenburg project so unless you like books do not buy it off EBay), says that the top colour was cream, not white, but this might just be the effects of the varnish.  The book was published 1in 1922 so he should know the colours.  Mike Lloyds article on Cambrian coaches says that brake ends were red.  The WRRC painting guide says Vermillion, Precision B49.  It looks as though the ends will be repainted, well sometime when I get the paint.

[ChrisN]

And now for something completely different.

 

Even though I have not had much time for modelling this week for various reasons I have nearly finished the glazing with only the birdcage roof to do.  Maybe tomorrow night.  However, a few weeks ago I made a cart.  It is a Lincolnshire dung cart.  Please do not ask to how I will justify a Lincolnshire cart in Mid-Wales, unless of course the local blacksmith decided they had had enough of 'flat' and wanted 'mountain' so moved.  There were quite a number of incomers in Barmouth in 1901, so Traeth Mawr would be no different.  (Nothing much has changed I see.)

 

The cart came from Jason who has the Wainfleet and Havenhouse thread.  I have followed the thread from quite early on.  Apart from excellent modelling I think I may have followed it as it is set in Lincolnshire and I was holidaying in that county for several years at that time.  (No not several years holiday, one week each year for several years.)  Originally set in late steam BR days as the layout went further from Skegness so it went back in time and now is set in GNR days.  Jason has worked with silhouette cutters, 3D printing and is now on a laser cutter.  (If you have not read it then I would recommend it.)

 

Now from a few scraps of card Jason cut out a cart kit.  I have glued it together, and sort of painted it using washings from the brown I used to paint the inside of my coaches.  It is not a wonderful finish, but I was worried about covering up the markings.  When I know what colour I really want it then I will finish it off.  It went together really well, so without further ado here it is:-

 

This is how it arrived, cut out but still in the former.

 

 

Made up

 

 

The underneath

 

 

The side

 

 

And finally the back

 

 

It is being examined by a few of the workers from Traeth Mawr, all wearing 1860s type clothing.  Yes some of the Andrew Stadden latest figures.  Yes that is Isambard himself looking on, wondering whether to bribe the engine crew to join his railway.  He will eventually go on Traeth Mawr platform, standing, as if hiding either at the end of a station building, or under the footbridge, spying on the competition.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.