Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Donw]

I knew Mike Morton-Lloyd and when the book came out discussed it with him.  The examples came from the main line  he said he didn't have much info on the Dolgelley line or the Coast line.  I think the records he had seen were from the grouping period .

 

Don

[corneliuslundie]

The Dolgelly line was GWR rather than Cambrian of course, so outside the scope of the book.

Unfortunately there are no identifiable PO wagons in the book on the Llangollen-Dolgelley line by Rear and Jones - in fact hardly any PO wagons at all.But I would think that the collieries around Ruabon would have supplied quite a lot of coal to the coast line. Wynnstay and Vauxhall for example, possibly Plas Kynaston and Garden Lodge in earlier days. Dapol did a Vauxhall wagon.

Jonathan

[Sasquatch]

Hi Chris. About building sizes. Most modern houses (which we're almost all familiar with) are all very much the same size, average sized rooms with 8-foot ceilings! Older buildings are different. Houses of the poor could be downright cramped, especially the older ones built when folk were much shorter. Our Belgian cottage Cira1776 was one such dwelling, when we viewed it, the oak beams were only 5'6" clearance! (Some of which had succumbed to gravity in the middle too). 

Later buildings had taller ceilings which got taller with wealth and status. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Prices house, given his status would have been quite grand! Imagine having those interviews with the locals in one of Mr. Prices reception rooms. The voices echoing around the room and the clink of china cups on china saucers. Wouldn't you also have needed an interpreter for some of the older locals?   

 

Pugh, Pugh, Barney Mcgrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb.😁    

 

Great stuff as always!

Edited April 24 by Sasquatch

[Donw]

14 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

The Dolgelly line was GWR rather than Cambrian of course, so outside the scope of the book.

Unfortunately there are no identifiable PO wagons in the book on the Llangollen-Dolgelley line by Rear and Jones - in fact hardly any PO wagons at all.But I would think that the collieries around Ruabon would have supplied quite a lot of coal to the coast line. Wynnstay and Vauxhall for example, possibly Plas Kynaston and Garden Lodge in earlier days. Dapol did a Vauxhall wagon.

Jonathan

 

I have some 0 gauge Vauxhall wagons. It is easy to make assumptions about Colliery wagons as these were more well known. It is much harder to find any local ones. I have some for  Pwllheli  Quarries  but where there others locally who owned wagons circa 1900? it may be businesses were fairly small and not having a lot to send out used company wagons. Barmouth Gas Works may have had coal delivered in colliery wagons and outputs such as Tar were sold to companies who collected it in their own wagons. So the Works had no wagons of their own. Any info would be helpful.

 

Don

[Edwardian]

Chris, have you considered trawling the local planning portal?

 

You can download any architect's plans for old building conversions, which might provide you with some useful examples of vernacular structure sizes, proportions, gable angles and such like.

 

The first one I randomly clicked on on the Gwynedd portal:

 

[Northroader]

 

here’s one one what I dun earlier. I was drawn to this one as I understand various GWR high ups were on the board. Then the loyal subjects in Traeth Mawr will happy in the knowledge that it was HRH Princess Beatrice wot dug it out.

 

Edited April 24 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

37 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I was drawn to this one as I understand various GWR high ups were on the board. Then the loyal subjects in Traeth Mawr will happy in the knowledge that it was HRH Princess Beatrice wot dug it out.

 

In 1923, the directors of the Ruabon Coal & Coke Co. were Charles B.O. Clarke (Chair)*, H.D. Dennis (Managing Director), P.S. Godman, G.N.E. Hall-Say, H. Kent, and Sir Stephenson H. Kent, KCB:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/r1004.htm. 

Clarke and Kent were also directors of Powell Duffryn among other coal firms. A partial list of Great Western directors reveals no overlap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Directors_of_the_Great_Western_Railway,

which is not to say that at some period the two companies may not have had directors in common.

 

*His parents must carry for the blame for the misery he undoubtedly suffered at school in consequence of his middle initials.

 

It would appear that HRH was down one of the pits of the Wynnstay Colliery Co., whose directors in 1923 were L.E.W. and T.F. Edgerton:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/w1043.htm.

 

The Durham Mining Museum website is a really useful tool, though it does not have a complete list of collieries.

[ChrisN]

9 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

Hi Chris. About building sizes. Most modern houses (which we're almost all familiar with) are all very much the same size, average sized rooms with 8-foot ceilings! Older buildings are different. Houses of the poor could be downright cramped, especially the older ones built when folk were much shorter. Our Belgian cottage Cira1776 was one such dwelling, when we viewed it, the oak beams were only 5'6" clearance! (Some of which had succumbed to gravity in the middle too). 

Later buildings had taller ceilings which got taller with wealth and status. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Prices house, given his status would have been quite grand! Imagine having those interviews with the locals in one of Mr. Prices reception rooms. The voices echoing around the room and the clink of china cups on china saucers. Wouldn't you also have needed an interpreter for some of the older locals?   

 

Pugh, Pugh, Barney Mcgrew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grubb.😁    

 

Great stuff as always!

 

Shaun,

Thank you.  I think it appears big next to the Airfix Inn, but it is also larger than 'Sportsman's Cottage' which in real life is larger than the cottages next to it.

 

 

This is the prototype of Sportsman's and yes, that green next to it covers a cottage.

 

Mr Price is a local and has Welsh as his first language so I think he  would have no problems with the older locals.  As for the contractor, he just needs an interpreter, full stop.

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Chris, have you considered trawling the local planning portal?

 

You can download any architect's plans for old building conversions, which might provide you with some useful examples of vernacular structure sizes, proportions, gable angles and such like.

 

The first one I randomly clicked on on the Gwynedd portal:

 

 

James,

Thank you.  I did know about this, and in fact this is how I know I have the size of Mr Price's house correct as the side I am not modelling, in the recent past has put in a planning application for a balcony.  (I think it is more to have doors open to let in the sea air than to sit and watch cars in the car park.) 

 

This is a good reminder as there are buildings I need to know the exact sizes of, or rather it would be better than doing it from my photos and measurements. (Criccieth Chapel for instance.)

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

here’s one one what I dun earlier. I was drawn to this one as I understand various GWR high ups were on the board. Then the loyal subjects in Traeth Mawr will happy in the knowledge that it was HRH Princess Beatrice wot dug it out.

 

 

Jonathan.

I think I have seen that picture before.  Fascinating.  I wonder how far down the colliery it was; was it dug out especially so she could stand up? 

 

I have a POW sides Black Park Colliery, Ruabon, and there could be a second.  I do like the look of yours, well done,  Was the Coal and Coke Co. a Factor, merchant or colliery?

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In 1923, the directors of the Ruabon Coal & Coke Co. were Charles B.O. Clarke (Chair)*, H.D. Dennis (Managing Director), P.S. Godman, G.N.E. Hall-Say, H. Kent, and Sir Stephenson H. Kent, KCB:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/r1004.htm. 

Clarke and Kent were also directors of Powell Duffryn among other coal firms. A partial list of Great Western directors reveals no overlap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Directors_of_the_Great_Western_Railway,

which is not to say that at some period the two companies may not have had directors in common.

 

*His parents must carry for the blame for the misery he undoubtedly suffered at school in consequence of his middle initials.

 

It would appear that HRH was down one of the pits of the Wynnstay Colliery Co., whose directors in 1923 were L.E.W. and T.F. Edgerton:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/w1043.htm.

 

The Durham Mining Museum website is a really useful tool, though it does not have a complete list of collieries.

 

Thank you, that seems a really useful tool, and er, a good rabbit hole to disappear down.

[ChrisN]

23 hours ago, tanatvalley said:

There were three routes for coal onto the Cambrian Coast line, in the north via Afon Wen from the Wigan coalfield, the centre via Ruabon from the Wrexham coalfield and in the south via Welshpool from the North Staffs and Shrewsbury coalfields. The Shrewsbury coalfield seems to have only been for the Mid Wales line. Also anthracite from South Wales. There were several gasworks on the coast line but I do not know when they opened. The North Staffs wagons can be seen at Aberdovey on the sand sidings and quay.

 

Alan,

Thank you.  I may have know that at some time, but of course I had forgotten it.  It also means I can put the right wagons on the right trains.

 

I assume that 'Evans and Bevan', (lovely name), and Hedleys both Collieries in Neath would have supplied anthracite?

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

I assume that 'Evans and Bevan', (lovely name), and Hedleys both Collieries in Neath would have supplied anthracite?

 

At your period, Evans and Bevan's sole colliery was Seven Sisters, Neath, producing anthracite:

http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/e1007.htm.

 

Headleys has an entry in Turton's Tenth. The Headley brothers were proprietors of Cwrt-y-Bettwys colliery ate Coed Franc near Neath, Brynwith and Raglan collieries at Pencoed, east of Tondu, and Garnet Colliery at Jersey Marine. The two Gloucester wagons of 1902 illustrated are marked Empty to Raglan Colliery Sidings. As far as I can make out, these were all anthracite.

[corneliuslundie]

For details of coal mined at collieries in south Wales an invaluable source is Tony Cooke's book and accompanying CD: "Gazetteer of the coal mines of South Wales & Monmouthshire from 1854" (Lightmoor, 2018).

For Cwrt-y-Bettws (note spelling) it says:

"Minerals worked - Manufacturing and steam coal"

For Raglan Slants Bridgend, "Household and manufacturing coal", seam worked from 1908, and for Raglan No 4 Drift, Bridgend "Manufacturing and household coal 1911--1922" 

So both too late and not anthracite.

Garnet slant was worked from much earlier, but seems to have stopped in 1875, starting again in 1880 but no proper records until 1910, again household and manufacturing coal.

Anthracite was normally found only at the western side of the south Wales coalfield.

I am therefore a bit puzzled by the 1902 photograph.

According to Cooke, Ernest Hall Hedley and Henry Moreton Hedley (note the spelling) had interests in Brynwith, Cwmnantllwd & Cwmnantllwyd Old Level, Cwrt-y-Bettws, Garnet, Great Morfa, Gwyn’s Drift, Primrose No. 2, Raglan, Raglan No. 4, Tareni Nos 1 & 2, Tareni Level, Waunycoed, Waunycoed Drifts, Ynysfechan.

So not much help for Chris I am afraid.

But for anthracite almost any colliery west of Llanelly is likely.

One problem with many of the PO wagon kits and transfers is that most are well after 1895.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

One problem with many of the PO wagon kits and transfers is that most are well after 1895.

 

This is true but Powsides do a good few for Gloucester wagons based on Gloucester official photos taken in the late 1890s and early 1900s, which is good for my 1902 date! (Too many nearly-new wagons, not enough old dumb buffers - which is tolerable in a Midland context but poor balance for other lines.) On the other hand, the Slaters Gloucester wagons have the round-bottomed Gloucester type 4 axleboxes of the early 90s rather than the square-bottomed 4S ones seen in all those photos. Fortunately Dart / MJT have cast whitemetal ones, or one can use the Cambrian Models Gloucester underframes.

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

For details of coal mined at collieries in south Wales an invaluable source is Tony Cooke's book and accompanying CD: "Gazetteer of the coal mines of South Wales & Monmouthshire from 1854" (Lightmoor, 2018).

For Cwrt-y-Bettws (note spelling) it says:

"Minerals worked - Manufacturing and steam coal"

For Raglan Slants Bridgend, "Household and manufacturing coal", seam worked from 1908, and for Raglan No 4 Drift, Bridgend "Manufacturing and household coal 1911--1922" 

So both too late and not anthracite.

Garnet slant was worked from much earlier, but seems to have stopped in 1875, starting again in 1880 but no proper records until 1910, again household and manufacturing coal.

Anthracite was normally found only at the western side of the south Wales coalfield.

I am therefore a bit puzzled by the 1902 photograph.

According to Cooke, Ernest Hall Hedley and Henry Moreton Hedley (note the spelling) had interests in Brynwith, Cwmnantllwd & Cwmnantllwyd Old Level, Cwrt-y-Bettws, Garnet, Great Morfa, Gwyn’s Drift, Primrose No. 2, Raglan, Raglan No. 4, Tareni Nos 1 & 2, Tareni Level, Waunycoed, Waunycoed Drifts, Ynysfechan.

So not much help for Chris I am afraid.

But for anthracite almost any colliery west of Llanelly is likely.

One problem with many of the PO wagon kits and transfers is that most are well after 1895.

Jonathan

 

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This is true but Powsides do a good few for Gloucester wagons based on Gloucester official photos taken in the late 1890s and early 1900s, which is good for my 1902 date! (Too many nearly-new wagons, not enough old dumb buffers - which is tolerable in a Midland context but poor balance for other lines.) On the other hand, the Slaters Gloucester wagons have the round-bottomed Gloucester type 4 axleboxes of the early 90s rather than the square-bottomed 4S ones seen in all those photos. Fortunately Dart / MJT have cast whitemetal ones, or one can use the Cambrian Models Gloucester underframes.

 

 

Thank you both. Jonathan, there is a lot of useful information there.  If there are no pictures then who can tell me if I wagon I use is wrong?  Probably the early type axleboxes are correct for when I am modelling.

 

I will make notes, as I am not really onto wagons yet,  As for dumb buffered ones, I have some, three, from 5 &9, but if I need to make some more I shall trawl through your thread Stephen

[ChrisN]

 

I think I am right in saying that one of the uses of anthracite was in brewing.  Before I go on a trawl of the internet, does anyone know how much anthracite a small brewery would use?  (Yes, I know it is like asking how long is a piece of string, which does of course have an answer?)  

 

Now Thomas Edwards, of Edwards Brewery, purveyors of fine Welsh Beer, does not have its own siding, so could he be supplied by R. Parry Coal Merchants, or would that be too much?  Mr Parry at the moment has exclusive use of the coal yard at Traeth Mawr. 

[corneliuslundie]

I think either Mr Parry would order in the anthracite (probably in the colliery wagon) or the brewery would order via a coal factor, but in the latter case they would have to arrange unloading and transfer to the brewery whereas if it was purchased via Mr Mr Parry he might well deliver (and would have a vehicle to do it).

If it came via a factor it might either be in a colliery wagon or in one belonging to the coal factor.

So lots of choice.

I really haven't a clue how much would be used by the brewery but I suspect that 10 tons would last quite a long time. 

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think either Mr Parry would order in the anthracite (probably in the colliery wagon) or the brewery would order via a coal factor, but in the latter case they would have to arrange unloading and transfer to the brewery whereas if it was purchased via Mr Mr Parry he might well deliver (and would have a vehicle to do it).

If it came via a factor it might either be in a colliery wagon or in one belonging to the coal factor.

So lots of choice.

I really haven't a clue how much would be used by the brewery but I suspect that 10 tons would last quite a long time. 

Jonathan

 

I assume that he would bag it up and take it like that as then there would be no argument on how much he had delivered?

[corneliuslundie]

Thinking about it, the brewery would need a delivery vehicle for the beer, so could move the coal from the yard to the brewery itself. And the next subject is barrels for delivering the beer. There has been a long discussion on the subject in the Midland wagon thread. Another rabbit hole.

BTW there are now several north Wales distilleries. Would there have been any in 1895?

Jonathan

Edited April 25 by corneliuslundie
odd layout

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

BTW there are now several north Wales distilleries. Would there have been any in 1895?

 

 

Another topic that has been discussed hereabouts. just the one in 1895, I think, established by a Mr Lloyd-Price:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_whisky#Revival.

See also:

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/32565#?xywh=-1%2C-48%2C700%2C536

and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frongoch_internment_camp.

The climate of Welsh Methodism and the Temperance Movement was rather inimicable to the whisky business.

Edited April 25 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

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Thinking about it, the brewery would need a delivery vehicle for the beer, so could move the coal from the yard to the brewery itself. And the next subject is barrels for delivering the beer. There has been a long discussion on the subject in the Midland wagon thread. Another rabbit hole.

BTW there are now several north Wales distilleries. Would there have been any in 1895?

Jonathan

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Another topic that has been discussed hereabouts. just the one in 1895, I think, established by a Mr Lloyd-Price:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_whisky#Revival.

See also:

https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/32565#?xywh=-1%2C-48%2C700%2C536

and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frongoch_internment_camp.

The climate of Welsh Methodism and the Temperance Movement was rather inimicable to the whisky business.

 

 

Thank you both.

Would the Brewery really want to move coal on their dray that carried the barrels?

 

I remember a discussion on I think Edwardians thread about barrels, and I have a Preiser set of various sizes.  The largest I thought was the one I wanted so I checked its volume and is around 77 gallons, or about the size of a butt.  I had bought some Dapol ones and they were just a shade smaller.  There were some in the pack that were about the right size, 36 gallons.  I am not sure they deliver that size anymore but if Youngs still do their 'every pub' challenge then that is the size you win.

[Compound2632]

https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/midland-railway-water-tank-panel-plain-r69bc-sms4g-azc62-n26p6-7dy5n-e8xe2-wml49-e6xw9-pwjf6-9y6wk-3wzrm

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

https://www.monksgate.co.uk/shop/midland-railway-water-tank-panel-plain-r69bc-sms4g-azc62-n26p6-7dy5n-e8xe2-wml49-e6xw9-pwjf6-9y6wk-3wzrm

 

Thank you, they are nearly the same size as the big ones that I have.  Perhaps I ought to get some just to compare the size.

[Donw]

12 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

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Thinking about it, the brewery would need a delivery vehicle for the beer, so could move the coal from the yard to the brewery itself. And the next subject is barrels for delivering the beer. There has been a long discussion on the subject in the Midland wagon thread. Another rabbit hole.

BTW there are now several north Wales distilleries. Would there have been any in 1895?

Jonathan

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Any savings from collecting the coal themselves would be lost in having to thoroughly clean the vehicle before doing more deliveries

 

Don