Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[Compound2632]

To my mind, the choice between open and closed carriage truck comes down to whether you are interested in modelling a road vehicle!

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

At that period probably an open carriage truck. The Cambrian had two but of course you would want one from the other end, GWR or LBSCR.

Jonathan

 

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not that covered carriage trucks weren't available - just 4/- extra!

 

It will probably depend on whether I want to build another carriage.

[ChrisN]

On 14/01/2024 at 12:21, MikeOxon said:

The class divisions between servants in pre-WW2 British society were almost more marked than those between their masters!  There's a flavour of it in Eveleyn Waugh's 'Brdeshead Revisited',  when Lord Marchmain returns from Italy and his retinue of servants have to be amalgamated with those already at the English estate: "Plender and Wilcox became Joint Grooms of the Chambers, like Blues and Life Guards with equal precedence, ... the senior footman was given a black coat and promoted butler, the nondescript Swiss, on arrival, was to have full valet’s status; there was a general increase in wages to meet the new dignities, and all were content." 

 

When Lord Wilcote ordered his special train then, in addition to the Family Saloon, he required a tri-composite, to ensure that the divisions could be carefully maintained.  In my blog post, I commented that "I expect the greatest fun was enjoyed in the 3rd class section, where the young maids would be making their first trip to London."

 

Mike

 

Mike,

Had to think about this one.

 

Butler and Valet in First Class?

Ladies Maid in First Class?

Cook in Second?

Downstairs Maid in Second?

Upstairs Maid in Third?

Scullery Maid in the luggage compartment?

 

The other day on Downton Abbey, (Honest, your Honour I do not watch it, but my wife was looking for something else,  It was only on 5 minutes), they went on holiday, (from Yorkshire, (?), behind a green SECR 0-6-0), and they left the Butler and the Housekeeper behind with other servants to run the house and do the jobs that they could not do when the 'family' was at home.

[Donw]

well it rather depends on where they will be staying.

 

if they have renter somewhere to stay yes they would need a cook scullery maid a footman or two  probably the under butler plus maids.

 

However if it is their holiday home they may have some permanent staff there.

 

If however they are staying in hotels

 

the lords valet, the ladies maid, the children's nanny with a maid to help with the children plus a groom if they take a carriage might be sufficient.

The same might be needed if they were staying with another family say the lords brother with his own establishment.

 

If there are additional adults of class ( perhaps the lady's sister or mother) they would need their maid (or valet).

These 'quality' people as they were often called obviously had trouble dressing themselves or other tasks most of us mastered as kids.

 

Don

 

 

[ChrisN]

I was going to do a proper modelling update, but I found I had not taken enough photos, so I will need to do those and then upload them.  I may have even finished something,  So, I know this will be great excitement for everyone but please try and remain calm.  I thought I would post my recent purchases and presents from Christmas.  Yes I know we are halfway towards the next one, but please indulge me.

 

First up:-

 

 

These are 3D prints from Gary, @BlueLightning.  The one on the left is a Honeywell PO wagon, which may be close enough to a Cambrian 4 plank wagon, but if not, Mr Price the coal merchant needs another wagon.  The one on the right is a LB&SCR horsebox that I have been wanting to finish my train for the visit of Sir Jon to the Young Englishman.  There is a Roxey Mouldings kit, but it is a brass kit, and as I am yet to do brass I have been waiting for a plastic version.  It is quite high up the list but it will need painting as I go along with it, and most painting will probably not happen until the spring when I can spray outside and keep the doors open to get rid of the smell.  You may think that it only has 3 buffers but one is stuck to the inside of the box.  It needs washing in soap and water as it is sticky but once I do that I am afraid I will lose the bits.  Watch this space.

 

 

This is the advantage of Christmas lists.  I now have enough horses for all my wagons, and plenty of chimney pots for Station Road.  In the bottom left hand corner is a brewer's dray.  I had intended to do a blow by blow build of it, but I forgot to take photos so here is it finished.

 

 

You may well ask, 'Where are the shafts?'  In the packet.  The whole thing needs painting and then the shafts need gluing to the horse, so it will have to wait.  It is well made, the bits that is, and it goes together quite well, but it is more of placing bits in the right place to glue rather than have a slot to hold something before it is glued.  The horse is a shire, which is bigger than any other horse I have, but I thought that a large horse for this would not be out of place.

 

Now before Christmas the whole family went away for the weekend.  My eldest son organised it as both he and myself had significant birthdays at Christmas.  Yes, you guessed it, we were both 21, (again).  My birthday was celebrated on the Saturday, and his on the Sunday.  The plan was to give me my presents after dinner on Saturday evening, but it got too late so was postponed until Sunday morning, except my youngest grandson, just turned 3, was so excited to give grandad the present that he and his sister had chosen for me.  His dad, my youngest had said to me earlier, "You will really like the present they bought you."  Of course I did.

 

 

Good old Hornby.  My middle son said with a smile, "It fits in perfectly with what you are doing."  Of course the Cambrian, 'Happy Birthday van' was scrapped before grouping which is why there is no mention of it is the wagon list.  It sits behind 'James the Red Engine' for when they come to play with my layout.

 

Finally, a book I have been waiting for from 2016?/ 2018?  It was bought by my youngest son.  (Just so you know, my eldest two bought tickets for me and my wife to see the Play 'The Mousetrap'.  Now I know that you are not supposed to reveal who did it but I am going to tell you.  It was the same person who did it nearly 50 years ago when I saw it last time.  🙂)

 

So the book.

 

 

 

Excellent book, as you can tell from the amazing picture on the front cover.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

 

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

I may have even finished something,

Steady on, there!!!

[Mikkel]

Nice harvest, Chris.

 

So you're the one who got the last A7 trade horse 🙂 They are currently sold out. But I follow in your footsteps with a couple of Shires and the horsebox from Gary on order.

 

I look forward to seeing how the horsebox goes. It is strange to think that esoteric pregrouping horseboxes can now be purchased fully printed. 

 

The brewer's dray looks good, better than the Shirescenes etched one from the same, er, stable.

[ChrisN]

50 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Nice harvest, Chris.

 

So you're the one who got the last A7 trade horse 🙂 They are currently sold out. But I follow in your footsteps with a couple of Shires and the horsebox from Gary on order.

 

I look forward to seeing how the horsebox goes. It is strange to think that esoteric pregrouping horseboxes can now be purchased fully printed. 

 

The brewer's dray looks good, better than the Shirescenes etched one from the same, er, stable.

 

Mikkel,

Yes, sorry about that.  The horsebox is interesting as it does not have a floor, but does have lugs to fit the brake gear to.  This will make fitting a floor, well, er, interesting.  I have also more recently bought two shires to go in the horsebox.  It is not that I think Sir Jon's brougham would need shires but they are the only Dart ones without a harness, and they will make a nice weight inside.  I did not realise that the horses had no window, so you may not be able to see them.  However, I have looked at various horseboxes and some at least show that there was a space between the top of the partition between the groom's compartment and the horses so you could see them through the groom's window.

 

I assume that they ran in passenger livery, ?mahogany, but what was the colour inside.  I have seen some white, which is good if you want to see the horses.  Maybe, I should just get on with it, the painting will take the most time.

 

Yes it is interesting what you can buy nowadays.  I have some locos I should really get which if I leave too long may not be available.

 

The dray is a nice kit.  I think I may have the shirescenes one as well but this is more chunky and I decided would look better.  I need some barrels, but I must check my stash of Preiser stuff.

[BlueLightning]

4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

I am afraid I will lose the bits.

 

I can always send on some replacements if you do.

 

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

the horsebox from Gary on order

and it went in the post today, hopefully it doesn't take to long to make it to Denmark

Gary

[Skinnylinny]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

The horsebox is interesting as it does not have a floor, but does have lugs to fit the brake gear to.  This will make fitting a floor, well, er, interesting.

Re: the horsebox and floors - there are two ledges above the solebars on the insides of the body. A piece of plasticard cut to 53mm x 28mm can be slotted in from underneath before fitting the brake gear, but after painting and glazing. That's what I had in mind, anyway! Everything on the separate brake gear part should be black, so can easily be painted separately, and should then locate once the floor has been attached and the wheels inserted, with the lugs hopefully locating things nice and centrally.

I have to admit, I hadn't considered adding horses, as they can't be seen from outside. Indeed, I haven't even added a representation of the wall between the groom's compartment and the horse compartment! It is rather dark in there, after all...

As far as the livery, I believe they would have run in mahogany, although @BlueLightning is better placed than me to advise!

Edited January 31 by Skinnylinny

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, BlueLightning said:

 

I can always send on some replacements if you do.

 

and it went in the post today, hopefully it doesn't take to long to make it to Denmark

Gary

 

Gary,

I do not like to take the mick, but thank you.  (Oh, I have lost a buffer, four in fact.  Where's the brake gear?  I have lost the box as well.  🙂)

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

Re: the horsebox and floors - there are two ledges above the solebars on the insides of the body. A piece of plasticard cut to 53mm x 28mm can be slotted in from underneath before fitting the brake gear, but after painting and glazing. That's what I had in mind, anyway! Everything on the separate brake gear part should be black, so can easily be painted separately, and should then locate once the floor has been attached and the wheels inserted, with the lugs hopefully locating things nice and centrally.

I have to admit, I hadn't considered adding horses, as they can't be seen from outside. Indeed, I haven't even added a representation of the wall between the groom's compartment and the horse compartment! It is rather dark in there, after all...

As far as the livery, I believe they would have run in mahogany, although @BlueLightning is better placed than me to advise!

 

Thank you, that floor sizing is very helpful.  I had not really looked at it but was expecting to have to have the floor in sections.  To be honest I have seen horseboxes, and had horsebox with my first train set but never really thought about the fact that the horses do not have windows, so I bought two to go inside.  If I can find out if the partition is full height or not will depend on whether I add the horses.  If it is half height I have seen the inside of a horsebox painted white so when you are peering it in should be obvious.  If it is full height, then some liquid lead will go in there.  There will be a groom though.

 

I tend to do details because I can.

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

As far as the livery, I believe they would have run in mahogany, although @BlueLightning is better placed than me to advise!

Correct!

[Skinnylinny]

An alternative to a full floor might be to floor just the groom's compartment of the horsebox, which would then allow access to fit a partition wall.

I believe this HMRS drawing is the same type as the D53 that I drew up, but I can't be certain. It certainly shows interior details:

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-2450--horse-box--9ft-w-b--14ft-o-h.html

[ChrisN]

11 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

An alternative to a full floor might be to floor just the groom's compartment of the horsebox, which would then allow access to fit a partition wall.

I believe this HMRS drawing is the same type as the D53 that I drew up, but I can't be certain. It certainly shows interior details:

https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-2450--horse-box--9ft-w-b--14ft-o-h.html

 

Thank you.  I had seen that diagram before as I was searching for information, but had not really connected it with the horsebox model.  It does appear as though the partition is made to go the whole way up, which is slightly annoying.  It does ask the question though, of how did the grooms check on the horses in transit?  Did they need to?  Was it just so that they did not have to have a ticket for the train, or did the owners have to buy a ticket for them anyway?

[Skinnylinny]

Looking at the top-down view, it almost looks as though there are hinged panels in front of where the horse's head would be, which would allow the groom to check on the horse. 

[ChrisN]

12 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Looking at the top-down view, it almost looks as though there are hinged panels in front of where the horse's head would be, which would allow the groom to check on the horse. 

 

I think you are right.  On some pictures of insides of different horseboxes there appears to be that sort of structure.  On a preserved one there is the framework for that but they have covered it all over, and the only model I have seen with an inside just has a full partition.

[ChrisN]

So, the question is, shall I model the horsebox, with just the groom in the groom's compartment and a solid partition, or leave two gaps in it and have two white(ish) horses poking their heads half through?  Answers on a postcard please.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I'm not sure you'd even be able to see the horses head sticking through once it's in place. The windows are tiny, even at eye level I think it would be tough to see anything inside.

I think even in real life, unless you had your face pressed up to the tiny windows you wouldn't see much inside 😄

Edited February 1 by Fair Oak Junction

[Nick Gough]

On 31/01/2024 at 15:26, ChrisN said:

 (Just so you know, my eldest two bought tickets for me and my wife to see the Play 'The Mousetrap'.  Now I know that you are not supposed to reveal who did it but I am going to tell you.  It was the same person who did it nearly 50 years ago when I saw it last time.  🙂)

 

 

Now there's a strange coincidence!

 

We saw the touring production of 'The Mousetrap', at our local theatre, in October.

I was amazed to find that it was the same murderer as when I last saw it - about fifty years ago. 

 

Mind you when I first saw the play, it didn't have 'Tucker' from Grange Hill or the female nurse, wot died in Casualty, in it.

[Nick Gough]

13 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Thank you.  I had seen that diagram before as I was searching for information, but had not really connected it with the horsebox model.  It does appear as though the partition is made to go the whole way up, which is slightly annoying.  It does ask the question though, of how did the grooms check on the horses in transit?  Did they need to?  Was it just so that they did not have to have a ticket for the train, or did the owners have to buy a ticket for them anyway?

Great Western Journal ran a series on horseboxes and horse traffic.

 

Apparently GWR vehicles had sliding trapdoors in the partition between the horses and the groom.

 

Some examples are given of the cost of horse travel - which work out to be more than double the first class fare for an equivalent journey. The groom would have costed an additional third class fare.

[Donw]

Interesting as always Chris. I must get a copy of that book.

 

Don

[ChrisN]

10 hours ago, Nick Gough said:

Great Western Journal ran a series on horseboxes and horse traffic.

 

Apparently GWR vehicles had sliding trapdoors in the partition between the horses and the groom.

 

Some examples are given of the cost of horse travel - which work out to be more than double the first class fare for an equivalent journey. The groom would have costed an additional third class fare.

 

Nick,

Thank you.  I understand that the inside of the horse compartment was covered in leather to avoid injuring the horse, so sounds like First Class accommodation to me.  (Mind you, the GWR only used leather in the smoking compartments..........)

 

Still undecided about putting the horses in.

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, Donw said:

Interesting as always Chris. I must get a copy of that book.

 

Don

 

Don,

Thank you.  The diagrams in the book are all to 7mm as well.

[Edwardian]

32 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Don,

Thank you.  The diagrams in the book are all to 7mm as well.

 

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