andyman7 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I've now had the mechanism out - my Meccano spanner came in handy. A fabulous bit of engineering, especially if like me you're more used to Triang innards. The reversing mechanism looks interesting, it looks all complete although rather grimy. One wheel is loose on the axle so that will need sorting - it's doesn't look fatigued though. The tender front and top, and the cab interior and rear painted black but otherwise the finish is original albeit very browned. The tender has an added coal load - I'm not sure how that's been done but it looks good. Indeed, the most remarkable thing is how scale the model appears compared to most Hornby O gauge - it has the right 'look' aided by the tweaks described above, and so solidly engineered too. The plan is to have it working by Christmas, As well as getting the mechanism sorted I need to source a suitable controller. Those that are familiar with my approach to vintage models will know that the whole point is to run it using the original mechanism and with all the quirks and foibles of the original - if I want a modern, smooth, low current motor I'd buy a current O gauge loco. If I ever get the chance I'd quite like to see a Hornby HV Metropolitan working, even if I have to don rubber gloves and shoes.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) The Mains driven models of the twenties upset H &S even back then and they were banned from sale, I gather they need a carbon filament lamp which is not too easy to find today. I would think an isolating transformer is a must and possibly a 'Variac' to actually run the beast. I'm not too sure about the insulation in the track after all these years. 20 volts is one thing, 100 odd another.... We must have been more careful in our youth. I can remember mum ironing using an adapter in the light socket (two pin of course and presumably made of bakelite and celluloid) and an overhead extension - normal practice in the fifties Hornby wheels often work loose (early ones were lead I believe (H &S again *** ) and therefore immune from zinc pest). Glue works wonders .By the thirties (well 1929*) Hornby were trying to provide a more scale appearanve with their 4-4-0s** and Princess (why they didn't provide a outside frame pony I can't imagine). Perhaps it was just cost - £5 guineas was two or three weeks wages for most people and then you needed coaches etc. as well. * Not a good year to launch a new range of expensive models! The same unjustified rise in share prices seems to be happening again - I trust I'm wrong,,,, ** It's a pity they choose a 'County' (not that they had much choice) just as the GWR was having a purge of redundant underpowered 4-4-0s. Lesser railways were still building the things. *** Yes we know lead (and asbestos) are toxic but we will use them anyway---- (I've seen a paper dated around 1910 on the toxic effects of asbestos. It was still on sale in the late sixties/early seventies). Edited February 4, 2018 by Il Grifone 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) .By the thirties (well 1929*) Hornby were trying to provide a more scale appearanve with their 4-4-0s** * Not a good year to launch a new range of expensive models! The same unjustified rise in share prices seems to be happening again - I trust I'm wrong,,,, . Ironically it was into a rather similar economic environment that the modern Hornby introduced the 00 scale County/Schools/Shire/Compound 4-4-0s as part of their 'year of the loco' in 1981 Edited October 15, 2017 by andyman7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Really it should have been an L1 rather than a Schools (Hornby (proper Hornby that is) were clobbered hard with theirs by events in 1939!). I suppose, having bug messed up Tri-ang's version (One of their best models IMHO - it was never quite right as a 2P*), they wanted to try something new. * I've put my money where my mouth is. I have all three versions BR and SR L1s and an LMS 2P. (On Edward I'll pass.... The arrival of grandchildren might change my mind of course. I do have a clockwork Thomas waiting....) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) Well, a bit off topic. But over the weekend, I stopped by a local yard sale and found this buried in a box under some random tat. And it works fine. The only issues are the red handle is cracked and the cord was old and split (latter was fixed by wrapping in electric tape). And for $5! Less than £4 for those who dont want to convert. I now have a new transformer for the Christmas season. Edited October 23, 2017 by Spitfire2865 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 A nice find , but I don't think wrapping in tape is sufficient even for 120 volt mains. I'd replace the lead myself. It's not worth the risk. I've several old transformers stashed away, but have a rule. Anything with rubber insulation is either not used and kept as a 'collectible' *or rewired. Transformers should really have a thermal cut-out too. * I thinkg I have 'one of everything' in Hornby Dublo electrics (at least post-war) but some are definitely 'retired'.... The latest exchange rate is 1$ = £0.7583, so not a lot less than £4 - thanks to Brexit! (Our government just finding out we are half a trillion pounds poorer than we thought didn't help either!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitfire2865 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 A nice find , but I don't think wrapping in tape is sufficient even for 120 volt mains. I'd replace the lead myself. It's not worth the risk. I've several old transformers stashed away, but have a rule. Anything with rubber insulation is either not used and kept as a 'collectible' *or rewired. Transformers should really have a thermal cut-out too. * I thinkg I have 'one of everything' in Hornby Dublo electrics (at least post-war) but some are definitely 'retired'.... The latest exchange rate is 1$ = £0.7583, so not a lot less than £4 - thanks to Brexit! (Our government just finding out we are half a trillion pounds poorer than we thought didn't help either!) Youd think there would be an issue with tape wrapping, but thats honestly the most used solution aside from rewiring. I considered it but the plug end has Lionel moldings on it, so would be lost if I rewire fully. It wasnt falling apart either, just heavily cracked in some areas, but no missing chunks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 ooooh-errr! I'm assuming that this is a two or two-plus-earth cable, and its probably 'vulcanised India rubber' or 'toughened rubber sheath', which typically 'dries' and cracks. It will cling on to the conductors if they are multistranded, but it's insulation properties will be poor to nil, because of the creepage paths through the cracks. Even if you over-tape the exterior, you can still expect that, at some inconvenient moment, a fault will occur between conductors, possibly starting as a fairly high resistance "fizzing" fault. I don't know what forms of electrical protection are used in the USA, but I'd be willing to bet that they will permit a good few amps to flow through an incipient short. The overtaping, if done well, might protect you against direct contact with the conductors, but it won't prevent a fire being started by the action I describe above. Change the cable, and get the transformer insulation resistance tested by a competent electrician. Kevin (Chartered Electrical Engineer, with some experience of caring for industrial installations containing 'ancient' cables and wires) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 U.S. installations operate at half the voltage of ours (approximately) so the current for the same power will be twice as much!* (Ignoring power factor**...). *Two phases at nominally 120 volts above/below earth. A washing machine (for example) is connected across both phases and works at 240 volts. The lighting circuits are wired from a phase to neutral so 'only' 120 volts. Less lethal (still enough) if you touch a phase, but it requires thicker cables to handle the heavier current. I'd keep the cable with its plug for 'show', but replace it for use. It's just not worth the risk. ** Perhaps that's why Edison was so keen on D.C. - he couldn't do the maths! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 One look at some installations over here would make you cringe; most of my Lionel transformers have a 110V two pin plug. H & S would have a field day! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Grifone Depending upon how you read history, it might be argued that Edison couldn't do all of the maths for dc, let alone ac, without considerable assistance. He was brilliant at enlisting brilliant people to aid him, but tended to fall out with them by doing something bordering on claiming credit for their efforts. One of his 'inventions' was three-wire DC distribution, which had been invented by John Hopkinson, who acted as consultant to him, a few months earlier ...... Edison lost the case when he took the subject to patent law. It's a bit of a hobbyhorse of mine, but the 'Edison Myth' as perpetuated doesn't stand up at all well to scrutiny. He might be better idolised as an entrepreneur and a man with a genius for facilitating the process of invention, than as an inventor. Kevin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I've paid for a Meccano T20 transformer that has had the cable replaced and been fully PAT tested as that was one area where the bargain basement approach seemed best avoided. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Grifone Depending upon how you read history, it might be argued that Edison couldn't do all of the maths for dc, let alone ac, without considerable assistance. He was brilliant at enlisting brilliant people to aid him, but tended to fall out with them by doing something bordering on claiming credit for their efforts. One of his 'inventions' was three-wire DC distribution, which had been invented by John Hopkinson, who acted as consultant to him, a few months earlier ...... Edison lost the case when he took the subject to patent law. It's a bit of a hobbyhorse of mine, but the 'Edison Myth' as perpetuated doesn't stand up at all well to scrutiny. He might be better idolised as an entrepreneur and a man with a genius for facilitating the process of invention, than as an inventor. Kevin I would agree. Probably the classic 'Edison invention' is the electric light bulb. Bell's telephone was also someone else's invention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) ooooh-errr! I'm assuming that this is a two or two-plus-earth cable, and its probably 'vulcanised India rubber' or 'toughened rubber sheath', which typically 'dries' and cracks. It will cling on to the conductors if they are multistranded, but it's insulation properties will be poor to nil, because of the creepage paths through the cracks. Even if you over-tape the exterior, you can still expect that, at some inconvenient moment, a fault will occur between conductors, possibly starting as a fairly high resistance "fizzing" fault. I don't know what forms of electrical protection are used in the USA, but I'd be willing to bet that they will permit a good few amps to flow through an incipient short. The overtaping, if done well, might protect you against direct contact with the conductors, but it won't prevent a fire being started by the action I describe above. Change the cable, and get the transformer insulation resistance tested by a competent electrician. Kevin (Chartered Electrical Engineer, with some experience of caring for industrial installations containing 'ancient' cables and wires) Definitely not being an electrical expert, that post covers the concerns I have with my two elderly Hornby Dublo controllers, an almost as old Triang controller and a very old Hornby transformer block with a tapping selector switch (looking straight out of Frankensteins lab) on the side! (Image borrowed from the internet as mine isn't to hand for photography! Also, that one looks like it's been rewired, I think mine has a red/black cotton covered cable) I think that last item definitely qualifies this post as "Coarse Scale O Gauge"... Edited October 25, 2017 by Hroth 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) Definitely not being an electrical expert, that post covers the concerns I have with my two elderly Hornby Dublo controllers, an almost as old Triang controller and a very old Hornby transformer block with a tapping selector switch (looking straight out of Frankensteins lab) on the side! Hornby Transformer.jpg (Image borrowed from the internet as mine isn't to hand for photography! Also, that one looks like it's been rewired, I think mine has a red/black cotton covered cable) I think that last item definitely qualifies this post as "Coarse Scale O Gauge"... Yes, that's the T20. How could you not want one of those powering your 1930s trains? When the trains are packed away you can use it to reanimate deceased household pets Edited October 26, 2017 by andyman7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Yes, that's the T20. How could you not want one of those powering your 1930s trains? When the trains are packed away you can use it to reanimate deceased household pets Yes, but the sparks and smell of scorched hair can be quite distressing. And you should see the speed that a reanimated hamster gets out of one of those transparent balls..... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Yes, but the sparks and smell of scorched hair can be quite distressing. And you should see the speed that a reanimated hamster gets out of one of those transparent balls..... Sounds shocking! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Now I have assembled the kit to test my Hornby No.2 Compound I was able to assess it's mechanical capabilities. I did get the motor to turn once but most of the time it just buzzed - the reverser is kicking correctly as the control lever moves past the first notch (i.e. full voltage on a Meccano T20 transformer). As suspected it really does need a proper overhaul, I suspect that the insulation in the windings has broken down. I've arranged to have the mechanism professionally overhauled as for a model as fine as this it's really worth getting it done properly. Further research has established that the loco I have appears to be a very late production one - circa 1939. As well as the modified splasher, it has unplated Mazak driving wheels push fitted onto knurled axle ends and the loco/tender body are matt varnished. The loco wheels are not fatigued at all which is rare although one is loose on the axle. As others have said, I am finding this all rather addictive.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 It sounds like one of the armature windings is open circuit. Dublo ones tend to unsolder themselves from the commutator (possibly dry jointed during assembly). Matt examples are rare and sought after. I read somewhere the advice to not polish too hard, with the remark that under every matt locomotive there is a gloss one trying to get out! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 The Compound has now been joined by a GWR County. This one has the light bulb in the smoke box door 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 This gets better and better! Can Bramham Moor and an L1 be far behind? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 The Compound has now been joined by a GWR County. This one has the light bulb in the smoke box door IMAG8311a.jpg This is one of the earlier ones with 'GREAT Q WESTERN' on the tender. Later ones had the 'shirt button', which was never borne by the prototypes as they had all been scrapped several years before its introduction. Only three more to go! The L1 was replaced by a 'Schools' just before WW II. Apparently a few 4-4-0s appeared after the war. Possibly left over from pre-war and for export only. (Exports had priority - we had a war to pay for...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Carne Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 The L1 wasn't replaced by the Schools, both appears in catalogues right through to the war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I only wish they sold about ten times more L1, then they might not be so 'sought after' now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 There seem to be far more LMS and LNER models than GWR and SR around today, probably reflecting sales (the same applies to 00). Whether this expresses preference or availability, I wouldn't like to say. I would like an L1 and a County, but SWMBO was on about "Wasting money on trains" today. How can one possibly waste money on trains? :scratchhead: 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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