Dave F's photos - ongoing - more added each day

[Jon Fitness]

I don't know how significant it is, but the one on the adjacent track is a trailing point on the Down Goods; this would be a catch point, wouldn't it?

I always thought that catch points were unworked/sprung and trap points were worked..I may be wrong though...

JF

[DaveF]

I always thought that catch points were unworked/sprung and trap points were worked..I may be wrong though...

JF

 

I think catch points are trailing, i.e. they derail wagons (or whatever) running the wrong way - e.g. wagons which have broken away from a train and run back down a hill.

 

Trap points are facing and derail something approaching (say) a junction.  Hence they have to be worked.

 

In the 1960 Sectional Appendix those at the east end of the station are described as "Run back catch points controlled from signal box".  That, of course, was before various track layout alterations, but they still appear to be motorised.

 

David

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

I think catch points are trailing, i.e. they derail wagons (or whatever) running the wrong way - e.g. wagons which have broken away from a train and run back down a hill.

 

Trap points are facing and derail something approaching (say) a junction.  Hence they have to be worked.

 

In the 1960 Sectional Appendix those at the east end of the station are described as "Run back catch points controlled from signal box".  That, of course, was before various track layout alterations, but they still appear to be motorised.

 

David

 

David

Your definitions are exactly correct - that's the easy bit.  Trap points will, by their very natures, always be worked points - usually in conjunction with another point end in the line they are controlling access to.

 

Catch points tended to mainly be unworked and usually fitted with a spring to ensure they reopened after each wheel passed, by the 1970s some of the springs had definitely seen better days on the WR if nowhere else,  But catch points can also be worked (as with those at Newcastle) and as was also the case of the WCML after the introduction of m.a.s. where, like Newcastle, they were power worked but unlike Newcastle I believe some there were at least semi-automatic in operation.

 

Now it gets slightly more complicated because there was another variety known by various names on different railways (and even on the same railway) but often called a 'slotted spring point'.  This sort were mechanically worked from a lever frame (maybe some were power worked off power frames?) and they worked exactly like any other sprung catch point when passed over in the trailing direction.  But by reversing the operating lever in the signalbox the catch tongue could be held closed - just like reversing a normal point - and a signalled movement could be made over them in the facing direction, for example when shunting.  The GWR seemed quite fond of them at one time and as far as I can work out they also conferred certain advantages in respect of interlocking design where things needn't be locked because of their presence as a catch point.

 

In some situations they could perhaps have almost have been described as more akin to a trap point but one working completely independently of any other points (I believe the one at Oswestry near the loco depot fell into that category) but those on heavily graded lines were definitely there as runaway catch points but they also needed to be closed for certain movements, usually shunting.  There were several examples (and might still be?) on theTaunton - Minehead branch which had them at four different signalboxes at one time.

[DaveF]

A visit to the western side of the Woodhead route to look at both green and blue Class 76s for this evening's photos.

 

It always seemed to be a long drive from the Nottingham area to Woodhead and beyond, but it was well worth it.

 

My first trip over the route was in around 1956, when I went on a school trip from Nottigham Victoria to Liverpool, with a trip on the Mersey before returning home on the same day.  Sadly I don't remember any details of the journey and it was long before I had a camera.

 

The light was particularly poor on the 1980 trip - though it was sunny when we set out from near Nottingham.  It clouded over as we crossed the Pennines, as it so often does.

 

 

Woodhead Class 76 (EM1) 26024 eastbound coal Nov 63 J077

This photo shows one of the problems of early colour film - the need for a relatively low shutter speed unless the light was really food - and Woodhead station always seemed gloomy.

 

Torside Class 76 (EM1) westbound empties Nov 63 J078

 

 

Woodhead Class 76 eastbound empty coal Aug 79 C4822

 

 

Woodhead 2x Class 76 westbound goods April 80 C5002

 

 

Woodhead 76010 and another eastbound light engines April 80 J6869

 

 

David

[trisonic]

I have a photo of one EM1 approaching Harold Wood during testing on the GEML.

Unfortunately I did not take the photo and it is in a book.....

 

 

Thanks again, David.

 

Best, Pete.

[LNERGE]

Here are two versions.. If you take the diagram at face value the connection in the down main/St Ives lines is a loose pair of blades dragged over by the point opposite to provide flank protection. 44's trailing end is sprung and is locked to trap by the motor on the facing end.

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Love the Woodhead photo's. C4822, in August, 1979, is a real quality shot of a 76 hauled train.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[lmsforever]

The shot of Newcastle was it taken just after the surburban platforms were converted into car parking because I note a great deal of rail rubbish left beside the running lines.Was this cleared up quickly or did it stay for years? Like the Woodhead photos shame it closed could have saved a great deal of money now.

[DaveF]

The shot of Newcastle was it taken just after the surburban platforms were converted into car parking because I note a great deal of rail rubbish left beside the running lines.Was this cleared up quickly or did it stay for years? Like the Woodhead photos shame it closed could have saved a great deal of money now.

 

That's a good question, I've no idea of the answer.  I don't often go to the Keep to get photos from above of the east end of the station so I don't have any taken from there until several years later.  I have lots taken on the station, but none showing that area - typical isn't it - you've never got the view you want!

 

I spent 33 years working in Newcastle (but near the outer edge of it), I rarely went into the city centre unless I really had to.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Here are two versions.. If you take the diagram at face value the connection in the down main/St Ives lines is a loose pair of blades dragged over by the point opposite to provide flank protection. 44's trailing end is sprung and is locked to trap by the motor on the facing end.

That is a rather nice arrangement.  It was supposedly the standard way of arranging the lie of the points on a double junction on the Southern (Railway) although in that case both point ends were worked  (source - SR Signalling Principlesb) and I was told years ago by a well informed S&T engineer that the LNER similarly also regarded it as a standard arrangement but have no original source confirmation of that.  Arranging a  double junction in this way has the advantage of reducing lever movements when both routes are busy and it looks as if the LNER went one step further at march South by completely dispensing with one of the levers.

 

And of course apart from an operational benefit on a  junction which has to be swung frequently it also has the advantage, and even bigger advantage at March South, of reducing the number of lever movements thus potentially affecting (downwards) the marks and hence the grade of the 'box and thus the cost of the Signalmen's wages.

[DaveF]

Back to the Great Eastern in the 1970s today.

 

 

Ardleigh Class 47 LIverpool St to Norwich Sept 74 C1802

 

 

Eight Ash Green Class 47 down ex pass Nov 74 C1822

 

 

Manningtree Class 47 light engine from Harwich line Nov 76 C3086

 

 

Manningtree Class 37 Peterborough to Harwich Parkeston Quay May 75 C2032

 

 

Ipswich SR S15 841 Greene King being moved to sidings after it failed Oct 77 C3568

 

 

David

Edited July 4, 2015 by DaveF

[Clive Mortimore]

In the photo of Green King the 03 shunter's runner, ex conflat L, is more interesting ................................some modellers are strange.

[Jon Fitness]

Here are two versions.. If you take the diagram at face value the connection in the down main/St Ives lines is a loose pair of blades dragged over by the point opposite to provide flank protection. 44's trailing end is sprung and is locked to trap by the motor on the facing end.

Love the diagram! Quick (probably daft) question and sorry for the off topic but if disc 5 reads out through 8 points, what does 4 read?

JF

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. Great photo's of the GEML. Some good ones of 47's going about their everyday work,  and interesting to see Green King having failed, and being shunted out of the way.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[br2975]

I thought it might help to re post the blue one from yesterday and a couple of green ones from earlier in the thread as a comparison of "whites".

 

 

a High Dyke Class 31s 5875 and 5873 light engines Oct 69 J2017.jpg

High Dyke Class 31s 5875 and 5873 light engines Oct 69 J2017

 

 

Swayfield Class 31 down l e Dec 74 C1841.jpg

Swayfield Class 31 down l e Dec 74 C1841

 

 

David

Dave

 

I love the GFYE pair at High Dyke.

.

One slight problem, the Brush Type 2s (Cl.31s)only went up to D5862.

.

Looking at your shot, I think they may be 5673 & 5675

.

Keep 'em coming.

.

Brian R

[LNERGE]

Love the diagram! Quick (probably daft) question and sorry for the off topic but if disc 5 reads out through 8 points, what does 4 read?

JF

[DaveF]

Dave

 

I love the GFYE pair at High Dyke.

.

One slight problem, the Brush Type 2s (Cl.31s)only went up to D5862.

.

Looking at your shot, I think they may be 5673 & 5675

.

Keep 'em coming.

.

Brian R

 

 

Thanks.

 

I had forgotten the caption on my computer copy of the image is wrong, it should be D5673 and ano.   I've now changed it.

 

David

[Swindon 123]

Now it gets slightly more complicated because there was another variety known by various names on different railways (and even on the same railway) but often called a 'slotted spring point'.  This sort were mechanically worked from a lever frame (maybe some were power worked off power frames?) and they worked exactly like any other sprung catch point when passed over in the trailing direction.  But by reversing the operating lever in the signalbox the catch tongue could be held closed - just like reversing a normal point - and a signalled movement could be made over them in the facing direction, for example when shunting.  The GWR seemed quite fond of them at one time and as far as I can work out they also conferred certain advantages in respect of interlocking design where things needn't be locked because of their presence as a catch point.

 

In some situations they could perhaps have almost have been described as more akin to a trap point but one working completely independently of any other points (I believe the one at Oswestry near the loco depot fell into that category) but those on heavily graded lines were definitely there as runaway catch points but they also needed to be closed for certain movements, usually shunting.  There were several examples (and might still be?) on theTaunton - Minehead branch which had them at four different signalboxes at one time.

I take it you mean a slotted spring point like the one below.

This one was at Malvern Wells on the down line between the box and the junction for the single line to Colwall. See photo below.

The only logical move I could figure it was used for was for running round a train, but even then there was no signaled move from the single line, wrong road onto the down in the up direction. With regards to the 20's on the weedkiller in the 2nd shot, that was the only time I ever had to work a train into that particular refuge, and the only train I ever saw in there.

 

Paul J.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, that is a spring slotted point.  A quick check of the 'box diagram and gradients confirms that the one at Malvern Wells is (was?) a catch point and the reason for having it slotted is to allow for a train being too long to stand in rear of it before being shunted through the trailing crossover or (albeit unlikely) into the loop.  No need for a ground signal by the Up Home as it is signalled for a setting-back move off the Down and effectively in those circumstances the double to single connection would have to be set for the Down so (on Western logic) there was no need to provide as signal as it could be regarded as effectively plain line!)

[DaveF]

Some photos from the Keighley and Worth Valley this afternoon.  They were taken between 1968 and 1970 when there were some interesting liveries.

 

 

 

Mytholmes tunnel 41241 Oxenhope to Keighley July 68 J1369

 

 

Haworth ex L&Y 957 painted for Railway Children Film Sept 70 J2340

 

 

Haworth No 63 Oxenhope to Keighley Sept 69 C119

 

 

Haworth Royal Scot 46115 Scots Guardsman July 68 J1351

 

 

Haworth W&M railbuses M79964 and 79962 July 68 J1362

 

 

Haworth yard with railbuses Sept 70 C351

 

 

David

[russ p]

I love to see pictures from the very early preservation period, what on earth went through peoples heads? I know BR liveries were still thought of as being modern, but some of the liveries dreamt up were simply awful . That two tone railbus is horrendous and the red 2MT not much more appealing

[DY444]

Back to the Great Eastern in the 1970s today.

 

Manningtree Class 37 Peterborough to Harwich Parkeston Quay May 75 C2032.jpg

Manningtree Class 37 Peterborough to Harwich Parkeston Quay May 75 C2032

 

 

David

 

 

What interests me in that shot is the guy walking in the down main four foot with his back to approaching traffic.  It looks like there are walkboards there too.  Is he en-route to the box ?

[DaveF]

I love to see pictures from the very early preservation period, what on earth went through peoples heads? I know BR liveries were still thought of as being modern, but some of the liveries dreamt up were simply awful . That two tone railbus is horrendous and the red 2MT not much more appealing

 

I think that in the early days the preserved railways saw a need to be clearly different from BR - after all they were using locos and stock which had been in normal use on BR until only a year or two earlier.

 

I'm also not sure if BR required some sort of livery change as a condition of sale in those days.  Perhaps someone else may know.

 

David

Edited July 5, 2015 by DaveF

[DaveF]

What interests me in that shot is the guy walking in the down main four foot with his back to approaching traffic.  It looks like there are walkboards there too.  Is he en-route to the box ?

 

He's the signalman.  There was (is)  a road underbridge at Manningtree, but high vehicles had to use the level crossing.  I think the gates were not worked from the box, but someone may know more about it.

 

David

[DaveF]

Some photos from the Midland Railway's line along the Erewash Valley for this evening.

 

 

Westhouses 2xClass 20 propelling brake van July 76 C2846

 

 

Westhouses 20169 & ano light engines July 76 C2844

 

 

Pye bridge 8F 48126 up coal Oct 63 J07

 

 

Langley Mill Class 37 down empties June 69 J1756

 

 

Trowell Class 47 up coal April 75 J4213

 

 

David