S.A.C Martin Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 The big thing for me is whether or not they are going to look right in the context of their weathering (to be added) on the trains they're pulling, in the context of the layout theyre going to be appearing on.The extremely light blue of Silver Fox showed up very clearly in Tony Wright's photographs but some experimenting with spare bodyshells shows I'm not far off what I wanted to achieve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 One thing I haven't addressed (and should really have done from the start) was the nameplate colour. I chose the red assuming it would match the wheels. Now I see that they don't, I will be stripping the paint from the nameplates very carefully and using the same humbrol no.20 I used on the wheels of my models. This should improve the look somewhat. The idea has come about through a useful reminder on a friend's and another modeller's thread. I'm overall very pleased with the prototypes I have built up and certainly it looks as if the way to go is to either use the GBL bodyshells plus additional parts and removing the valances, or using the Mallard Railroad model (more easily available than the super detail Hornby models) and changing the bufferbeam and valve gear. Hornby's sprung ones have very fat buffer shanks which, for me, spoil the look of the front end particularly. The streamlined Maygib ones I have used look much better and give the models a better look of proportion and streamlining. So one change I have made to the painting is the choice of undercoat. A dark black primer from Plasticote has been used on the latter two, Silver Fox had a very light grey primer used and thus the blue was perhaps too light. I am confident they will all match and look the part once weathered, however. I just need to get some decent lamps and then finish track laying on the new layout... It's not perfect but I am enjoying it. Budgeted models to the specific specifications I want and in the forms I want. It's been very satisfying and I hope it remains that way. Perhaps I should get on and work on a few more tank engines and freight locomotives to spice things up a bit as I've been very Pacific orientated the last few years! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Just been doing some late night modelling. I don't have to go to work tomorrow (dentist in the morning) so taking advantage of the good weather this evening to chill out with some friends and then do some more work on my A4s now. I've removed the nameplates on Silver Fox and Mallard, and they have been soaked in paint remover prior to being painted with Humbrol no.20, which I have standardised for the wheel sets of my A4s and should now do so for the nameplates. Dwight D. Eisenhower also gets a new nameplate colour... The GBL A4 bodyshell isn't a total rip off from the Hornby one, though it is undoubtedly based on Hornby's. There are several key differences which makes life a little difficult for modellers. For one, the front end. My body shell for Silver Fox as you can see, has Maygib buffers because those supplied are - for want of a better word - awful. (Bear in mind it's a £4 body shell though and it's not exactly a heinous crime to be a little bit off) The different washout plug arrangement on the GBL model is most noticeable in this view. On future GBL conversions I plan to add etched washout plugs to correct them. One area I am really unhappy with at the moment is this area, zoomed in and cropped for effect. This is on the Hornby Railroad model, though it is the same on all of the super detail models too. The cylinder and cylinder cover area, just looks wrong. For the record, I have used the super detail cylinder type on this model. It looks too small, it's definitely too recessed from the front part of the cut valances, and it's not low enough either as it should at the very least be level with the bottom of Hornby's cylinder covers. There's a terrific, very well known picture of Mallard in the interchange trials and at that angle, the polished cylinder cover is very noticeable. I'm not going to be able to recreate the overall look of that photograph without major surgery here. It's thoroughly frustrating. I'm not sure how you would even sort this. One thought was perhaps to fit a set of Hornby's A3 type cylinders, which are deeper and bigger overall, and change the spindle ends to the correct type. I may yet experiment with this. Failing that, I may have to give serious consideration to having my own cylinder block designed for it, because it's a part of the models I'm 100% unhappy with. The Bachmann model is a little better in this area, in fairness, but not by much (and the valve spindle ends on the Bachmann model compared to the Hornby model are malnourished). So little steps each update in the quest for an A4 build I am happy with, but getting closer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They are like that so the body can be removed . If you make the undercut you wont get it off again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 18, 2014 Author Share Posted July 18, 2014 They are like that so the body can be removed . If you make the undercut you wont get it off again. There's got to be a way around that Mick - or at least to make it look more presentable and accurate. As it stands it just doesn't sit well with me. Thinking cap well and truly on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The only ways I can think of are:- A new flexible Valance moulding Glue a curved Valance piece to the cylinder, but then you have a very visible seam on the valance where they would join up. Dont think either are viable !! Good luck !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamOrmorod Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 They are like that so the body can be removed . If you make the undercut you wont get it off again. How about making the body so it unscrews at the back and slides forward off the chassis? I'm sure I've heard this system mentioned somewhere else to do with an A4 kit (can't remember which). I imagine a lot of work would be necessary to put the screws holding the body down at the back, but I think that the improvement to the cylinder area would be well worth it. A fair amount of modification is necessary to attach the GBL body onto a motorised chassis anyway (I think, judging by pictures from the relevant thread), so I don't think it would be too difficult on those A4s, though I imagine the railroad A4 would be more difficult, as you would be pretty much reversing its mounting system entirely. Edited to add quote to help explain the reason behind the idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Interesting thoughts Gents. I shall have a think on all you've suggested. In the meantime, I've done some more work on e22 Mallard. Nameplates now the right colour and restored to the locomotive, in addition to numerals fitted, cab glazing, spectacles and Posed with my dynamometer car, you can see where I am headed in terms of my modelling and the new layout. I very much want to run Mallard as she was in the interchange trials, and all that is required to finish is a few transfers at the front end, two little Es over the stainless steel numerals and a medium dose of appropriate weathering. Well and truly on the way here. I feel a bit happier with the cylinder drain cocks added that the model is starting to look the part. I'm aware the lighting makes it look VERY bright here but in the flesh it is a darker colour than Silver Fox and this will hopefully aid the weathering stage no end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Well, looking at the colour on the Mallard plates....nice to know my theory works! Plates look great mate! I had read somewhere the plate colour was made to match the wheels, the reason why my Herring Gull doesn't look right at the moment (clearly the BR colour) and I thought of changing it. Will be done this week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted July 19, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hi Simon, I tried to post this yesterday but for some reason was unable to upload pictures - I shall try again! I quite agree, the classic 'front three quarters' view of the Hornby A4 (and other RTR A4s) is spoilt by the fact that the valences over the cylinder casing drop down vertically rather than curving under following the shape of the cylinder covers. As Mick says, this is due to the need to be able to separate the body from the chassis. However I've had a go at improving this aspect of my 60003, and while maybe not for the faint hearted, you don't seem to be afraid of taking your tools to your models so perhaps you might find this easier than making completely new cylinders. Here's the classic 'front three quarters' view of 60003, as modified. Still not perfect, but hopefully looking a bit better than it did. And an enlargement of the above, focussing on the cylinders. Please excuse the dust trapped in the front guard irons; this is a very reliable loco which I don't often have reason to remove from the layout, and hadn't noticed the dust until I looked at these pictures! A view from below, which hopefully gives an idea of what I did. I cut the fronts of the cylinders off the chassis, and glued them inside the cylinder covers moulded on the body. Then, on the chassis, I reduced the width of the cylinders by as much as I dared whilst still retaining the hole for the piston rod to slide in. Back to the body, I thickened up the cylinder covers on the inside - I think I used a single thickness of 40 thou black plastikard for this (colour optional though!). This having dried, I then filed and sanded the thickness of the bottoms of the cylinder covers back, to match (as nearly as I could) the shape of the cylinder fronts. Then scribed back the vertical lines representing the valence panelling over the cylinder covers. I think I also replicated the now-missing 'rivets' (bolts?) on the lower part of the valences with cubes of 10 thou plastikard, and then repainted the affected area. While doing this, be very careful of the valve spindle guides front and back as these are very vulnerable; I think I had to re-attach mine. A down side of this conversion is that the mounting holes for the cylinder drain cocks are no longer in the correct alignment to fit the mouldings provided. I did think about making my own from wire, but so far haven't done so. If I did, they could not be securely glued to either the cylinder fronts or the cylinders themselves, otherwise once again it would be impossible to separate chassis and body. It should be possible to make cylinder drains which are a push fit, or glue them with a non permanent glue and reattach them when body and chassis are reunited. I believe (although I don't actually have any) that on the models representing pre-war locos with full valences, the valences carry on in a flat plane between the cylinders and the buffer beam, whereas they should curve under along the whole length of this part. I suppose it would be possible to carry out a modification along the lines of the above all the way from the ctylinders to the front of the loco. It might not be necessary then to detach the cylinder fronts as these are invisible, but would have to bear in mind the need for the bogie wheels to swing, and also obviously retouching the garter blue would be more difficult than the black of the BR livery. Hope this may help, keep up the good work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 That is stunning work Steve. Makes a big difference! For me, I'm happy with the compromise (I think the lack of wrap around is more noticeable on de valanced A4s). It would require most likely a full repaint on my pre war locos......and with many locos and coaches I'm going to have to build for Thirsk South (in all it's 36 foot glory)... I'm happy to just renumber and weather my A4s. Sorry for hijacking your thread Si, I'll ###### off now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Brilliant work Steve!!! That is definitely going to be something I am going to try on Mallard. Where I may deviate is to simply remove the valve spindle ends, and cast some cylinder covers to fit in addition to the cylinders. I'll make up a quick drawing to show what I mean later on. The improvement to the look of the Hornby A4 there is extremely significant. A really useful bit of information that! Tom, it was your model and your post that made me go back and look at mine. You were absolutely right - it looks odd - so having changed them I think it looks a lot better. Silver Fox for comparison, before and after: Sorry for hijacking your thread Si, I'll ###### off now! Don't apologise Tom. I'm thrilled to get some discussion on the thread. That's what it's all about, sharing knowledge and ideas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Thanks Chap.... 100% better, and might pick up some Humbrol 20 after seeing that. The nameplate colour is throwing up quite a few issues. Going off RCTS 2A, the only A4s in 1938 and 1939 to have 'red' nameplates were the original 4, Commonwealth, West Riding and Director A4s. However this isn't true as I have found colour photos of three bird name A4s carrying red plates, Herring Gull, Wild Swan and Kingfisher. All three locos are from different sheds, so I suspect this was a Doncaster application. If this is so, then doesn't this mean that more Garter Blue A4s received red nameplates. Question is do I only do the A4s in red where I have colour photos, or where the B&W depicts the plates as lighter than the smokebox, do I depict these as red too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 Personally speaking I think the red nameplates need to be done on a case by case basis though a list of known red platers would be handy for modellers. I can say with certainty other classes also had variants on red nameplates although as you correctly stated some time back Tom, pre and immediate post war, the red colour matches the wheels on the A4s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Hi Simon, I tried to post this yesterday but for some reason was unable to upload pictures - I shall try again! I quite agree, the classic 'front three quarters' view of the Hornby A4 (and other RTR A4s) is spoilt by the fact that the valences over the cylinder casing drop down vertically rather than curving under following the shape of the cylinder covers. As Mick says, this is due to the need to be able to separate the body from the chassis. However I've had a go at improving this aspect of my 60003, and while maybe not for the faint hearted, you don't seem to be afraid of taking your tools to your models so perhaps you might find this easier than making completely new cylinders. Here's the classic 'front three quarters' view of 60003, as modified. Still not perfect, but hopefully looking a bit better than it did. P1000447 RMWeb.JPG And an enlargement of the above, focussing on the cylinders. Please excuse the dust trapped in the front guard irons; this is a very reliable loco which I don't often have reason to remove from the layout, and hadn't noticed the dust until I looked at these pictures! P1000447 1 RMWeb.JPG A view from below, which hopefully gives an idea of what I did. P1000448 RMWeb.JPG I cut the fronts of the cylinders off the chassis, and glued them inside the cylinder covers moulded on the body. Then, on the chassis, I reduced the width of the cylinders by as much as I dared whilst still retaining the hole for the piston rod to slide in. Back to the body, I thickened up the cylinder covers on the inside - I think I used a single thickness of 40 thou black plastikard for this (colour optional though!). This having dried, I then filed and sanded the thickness of the bottoms of the cylinder covers back, to match (as nearly as I could) the shape of the cylinder fronts. Then scribed back the vertical lines representing the valence panelling over the cylinder covers. I think I also replicated the now-missing 'rivets' (bolts?) on the lower part of the valences with cubes of 10 thou plastikard, and then repainted the affected area. While doing this, be very careful of the valve spindle guides front and back as these are very vulnerable; I think I had to re-attach mine. A down side of this conversion is that the mounting holes for the cylinder drain cocks are no longer in the correct alignment to fit the mouldings provided. I did think about making my own from wire, but so far haven't done so. If I did, they could not be securely glued to either the cylinder fronts or the cylinders themselves, otherwise once again it would be impossible to separate chassis and body. It should be possible to make cylinder drains which are a push fit, or glue them with a non permanent glue and reattach them when body and chassis are reunited. I believe (although I don't actually have any) that on the models representing pre-war locos with full valences, the valences carry on in a flat plane between the cylinders and the buffer beam, whereas they should curve under along the whole length of this part. I suppose it would be possible to carry out a modification along the lines of the above all the way from the ctylinders to the front of the loco. It might not be necessary then to detach the cylinder fronts as these are invisible, but would have to bear in mind the need for the bogie wheels to swing, and also obviously retouching the garter blue would be more difficult than the black of the BR livery. Hope this may help, keep up the good work! I really like that idea Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamOrmorod Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Where did you get that dynamometer car from? Is it a kit? Looks great posed next to Mallard, it's almost like you can't have one of them without the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 A present from a friend - it's a golden age model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 20, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 20, 2014 A present from a friend - it's a golden age model. How absolutely wonderful to have such a friend...bravo ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frappington Jct Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 A present from a friend - it's a golden age model. I want friends like this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 It's worked...outdoor photos in the morning so long as the weather is good and I'll post them in my thread. Far better colour! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 How absolutely wonderful to have such a friend...bravo ! I initially refused to take it without some form of payment at which he presented me with a fait accomplis. Namely that he wouldn't draw for my books again if I didn't accept this gift! I have a cunning plan however. My next A4 conversion will be a Gateshead engine which he is very fond of. He will not refuse the gesture I am sure and it'll give me some more material for the blog. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Looks good Tom, an improvement to be sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 I'm currently working on a few other models at the moment, and a new product for the A4 detailing range (see picture attached from Peter Harvey - he has re-designed the etches to remove the cutting tools. This leaves the reverser, ashpan lever, lower firebox sides and the AWS plate). Peter is also working on a range of washout plugs and mud hole doors initially for my own use on the Railroad A3s but perhaps later as a product in its own right. The two models I am working on are additions to my freight locomotive fleet. Namely, a Stanier 8F and a WD 2-8-0. I intend on both of these becoming LNER variants as classes O6 and O7. My main question is, what modifications to I need to do to the Hornby one to create a proper Doncaster built O6 for the 1946/7/8 period, and for the WD, is there anything I should know about the Bachmann model that isn't suitable for the LNER owned ones? Thanks in advance. I have ordered the relevant Yeadons and RCTS books to help too but any advice would be much appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
69843 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Simon, While I can't advise on the differences between the 8F/O6 and WD/O7, may I just take this time to say how truly excellent the idea of these etches are again? The idea you have done is so simple yet effective it kind of makes me wonder how it wasn't thought of before. And I think the washout plugs will be a major boost to any kitbuilder, scratchbuilder or even RTR-basher that requires the detail. I commend you sir for your foresight and innovative thinking. I have to ask, is that Inkscape or AutoCAD you are using? Though I think you may have nicked the idea for the logo! : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Holden_logo.svg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 I've no idea on the drawing technique - it is all Peter Harveys excellent work. The similarity to the Holden logo is a happy coincidence, assuredly. Our logo is based on a never used British Transport logo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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