Nile's kitbuilding bench - Midland 1377

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Guy Rixon said:

Except in the special case where the customer has an end tippler, or a rotary tippler. Witness the Hull Corporation wagons with doors at both ends but not in the sides.

I have seen a photo on here of a 'end-doors only' 21-tonner at a domestic coal terminal (not even a coal-drop). It was stood clear of other wagons, and the end-doors were propped open with sleepers. The coal was being shovelled into the four-foot.

As to the internal colour of coal wagons, I never looked inside wooden ones, but the steel-bodied ones didn't seem to be all-black, having areas of steel with traces of rust clearly visible. End-tipping hoists, and rotary tipplers, seemed pretty good at clearing the loads out. What I do remember, with wagons of anthracite duff (which might stand, loaded, for a  couple of weeks, waiting for a ship) was that there were traces of straw visible around the door bottoms; I'm not sure how much of the interior would also have had a straw covering.

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Because they were swept clean after unloading - certainly by small-time coal merchants. (Maybe not at dockside tipplers.) Good photos of coal wagons from above in the pre-Grouping period are not common but I call as witness the photo of Gurnos, c. 1906, on pp. 140-141 of J. Miles, K. Thomas and T. Watkins , The Swansea Vale Railway (Lightmoor Press, 2017). This includes a line of Midland D299 and D351 wagons on a siding that is part of the engine shed yard; the furthest one is laden with coal; the nearer ones are empty - one can see down to the floor; there are no particles of coal to be seen. The unpainted woodwork is clearly grimy but lighter in shade than the external painted woodwork. The ironwork stands out as much darker.

 

On the other hand, the Booth & Mitchell wagons in this 1905 photo of Wisbech Sidings, Peterborough, do look quite dark on the inside, compared to the Midland D299 wagons alongside:

 

2

 

The interiors of open wagons were invariable not painted, so if they were loaded with coal, dust from the load would become ingrained into the surface of the timbers. This would be especially true if the load had been wet at some time*. For a similar reason, coalmen's sacks were almost always black, because coal dust became entrapped in the fibres of the hessian sacks. Interestingly, I seem to remember that sacks for carrying coke were always paler than the coal sack.

 

It's obvious that some, at least, of the MR wagons in the Wisbech photo had carried lime, so I would suggest that if the MR wagons at Gurnos had pale inside they had been used for carrying limestone rather than coal.

 

*Obviously if the photo were taken in Wales the loads would have been wet.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

The interiors of open wagons were invariable not painted, so if they were loaded with coal, dust from the load would become ingrained into the surface of the timbers. This would be especially true if the load had been wet at some time*. For a similar reason, coalmen's sacks were almost always black, because coal dust became entrapped in the fibres of the hessian sacks. Interestingly, I seem to remember that sacks for carrying coke were always paler than the coal sack.

 

It's obvious that some, at least, of the MR wagons in the Wisbech photo had carried lime, so I would suggest that if the MR wagons at Gurnos had pale inside they had been used for carrying limestone rather than coal.

 

*Obviously if the photo were taken in Wales the loads would have been wet.

 

I don't dispute the reasoning here but in the Gurnos photo, I would make the presumption that the wagons' last load had been coal for locomotive use, given that they are standing in a siding attached to the engine shed. Cleaning out of the D299 wagons might have been more than usually scrupulous, since they could in principle have next been used for merchandise rather than mineral traffic. I'm going to be keeping a look out for photos that might support the discussion one way or the other!

[Nile]

I think eventually I'll have to attack these wagons with some black weathering powder, which I'm still experimenting with. But not yet, I've already put them away in a box.

Meanwhile the next model is of a LBSCR 8 Ton van (SR dia.1434) by Smallbrook Studio. It's a resin body kit designed to go on a Dapol 10' wb chassis, which I haven't got. What I have got is a spare Ratio GWR chassis. This may not be quite right either but it should look better than a Dapol chassis. I've filed the axleboxes to look more like the LBSC ones, and I can live with the 1mm wb error. The inner floor position had to be adjusted for the Ratio chassis, adding to the fun of getting the sides and ends glued together square. Some gaps at the corners were inevitable and have been filled. The card inside the body is to support the inner roof former at the correct height (a thick piece of resin). A piece of plastic card will eventually be glued to this for the outer roof.

 

 

The Ratio chassis wasn't quite long enough, so I've added some extensions at the ends. I drilled a hole in the middle of the chassis to match that in the inner floor, helping glue fumes escape during assembly.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile

[Compound2632]

Interesting - I've been tackling one of their Brighton cattle vans; I made my own solebars then got the right 4ft springs and axleboxes from 5&9 Models, as a result of which I'm rebuilding the solebars... The vacuum-formed resin is a strange and unpleasant material - how did you get on assembling the body?

[Nile]

I managed to get it square. The parts needed cleaning up (flash removal) and fettling to get a good fit. None of the parts were warped, which helped a lot. No holes to fill either, so his vacuum pump is doing a good job.

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Nile said:

I managed to get it square. The parts needed cleaning up (flash removal) and fettling to get a good fit. None of the parts were warped, which helped a lot. No holes to fill either, so his vacuum pump is doing a good job.

 

Yours was better than mine - I think I had sides from different batches, that had shrunk by slightly different amounts.

[Nick Holliday]

11 hours ago, Nile said:

Meanwhile the next model is of a LBSCR 8 Ton van (SR dia.1434) by Smallbrook Studio. It's a resin body kit designed to go on a Dapol 10' wb chassis, which I haven't got. What I have got is a spare Ratio GWR chassis. This may not be quite right either but it should look better than a Dapol chassis. I've filed the axleboxes to look more like the LBSC ones, and I can live with the 1mm wb error. The inner floor position had to be adjusted for the Ratio chassis, adding to the fun of getting the sides and ends glued together square. Some gaps at the corners were inevitable and have been filled. The card inside the body is to support the inner roof former at the correct height (a thick piece of resin). A piece of plastic card will eventually be glued to this for the outer roof.

 

The Ratio chassis wasn't quite long enough, so I've added some extensions at the ends. I drilled a hole in the middle of the chassis to match that in the inner floor, helping glue fumes escape during assembly.

Sorry to be a bit negative, but one of the unusual features of the LBSC steel underframes as used on these vans, in 1900, and an earlier batch of Open A wagons, was that the flat face of the steel channel was towards the outside, so they looked more like a timber frame, rather than seeing the channel edges, as on the ghastly Dapol chassis.

When I built one of these kits I simply used plastic section to make a new underframe, as there is little detail needed, and by using etched w-irons I could get the correct 9' 9" wheelbase. I can't recall which castings I used for brakegear and boxes and springs, but I was pleased with the result, which is just that little bit different from the Nucast and 5&9 wooden framed versions.

[Compound2632]

G. Bixley et al., An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons, Vol. 2, illustrates SR Diagram 1434 (LBSC Diagram 9) for the 100 vans built by Ashbury that Nick describes. The flat steel face of the solebar has boltheads in the usual places for the W-irons but without the usual washer plates. I see the ends feature the unusual three raised panels and the cross-brace just below eves level, and the sides the substantial wooden door bangers at floor level; the latter were possibly a later addition as I can only see them on post-grouping photos. The ends at least look tricky to modify to D1433 (LBSC D8), the more numerous the wood-framed version.

 

The drawing shows 4 ft springs but the photos, of vehicles in post-1936 SR livery (one of an IoW vehicle), show 3 ft springs.

 

LBSC numbers given for D1434 are 10358 and 10402, which became SR 46629 and 46672; since the LBSC numbers are 44 apart and the SR numbers 43 apart and the full SR number series was 46621-46718, 98 vehicles, the LBSC number series can be inferred as 10350-10449 or 10349-10448, with two vehicles withdrawn by 1923.

 

I said I would report back on the interior of coal wagons. Having browsed through my collection of PO wagon books and others, photos taken at collieries do yield some evidence. The overall impression I get is of very grimy unpainted timber but not completely black. My conclusion is that it would be wrong to paint the interior plain matt black; wood colour (whatever one thinks that should be) with a very heavy wash of near-black weathering is called for. The interior ironwork should stand out clearly as a definite off-black.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Compound2632

[Tony Teague]

I have built a few of the Smallbrook Studio kits and found them a bit troublesome because of the irregular shrinkage of the resin.

If the "floor" block is distorted it can be pretty difficult to get the body sqaure.

Nevertheless they do cover some unusual prototypes and can be made into reasonable models; this the d. 1527 cattle wagon (needs weathering!):

 

 

I should say that this is built on the "ghastly" Dapol chassis as supplied!

For comparison, however, the moulding of David Geen's whitemetal d.1529 cattle wagon looks more crisp sharp to me:

 

 

(And it goes together more easily!). [no connection etc].

 

Tony

Edited May 29, 2019 by Tony Teague
added comment about the chassis in the light of other posts

[Guy Rixon]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I said I would report back on the interior of coal wagons. Having browsed through my collection of PO wagon books and others, photos taken at collieries do yield some evidence. The overall impression I get is of very grimy unpainted timber but not completely black. My conclusion is that it would be wrong to paint the interior plain matt black; wood colour (whatever one thinks that should be) with a very heavy wash of near-black weathering is called for. The interior ironwork should stand out clearly as a definite off-black.

 

I think the nature of the coal matters. I have two domestic coal-bins. One has always been loaded with smokeless fuel made from compressed coal-dust and is uniformly black inside. The other has, for most of its existence, held "proper" coal in lumps and this is much much less blackened.

[AlfaZagato]

Hard coal would likely produce less dust than softer coal.    I think Welsh wagons then would be dirtier inside than, say, Scottish, then,  or do I have that flipped?

[wagonman]

58 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

Hard coal would likely produce less dust than softer coal.    I think Welsh wagons then would be dirtier inside than, say, Scottish, then,  or do I have that flipped?

 

Both Wales and Scotland produced a range of coal types, and thus hardnesses: welsh anthracite is among the hardest, Welsh steam coal among the softest.

 

[Nile]

9 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Sorry to be a bit negative, but one of the unusual features of the LBSC steel underframes as used on these vans, in 1900, and an earlier batch of Open A wagons, was that the flat face of the steel channel was towards the outside, so they looked more like a timber frame, rather than seeing the channel edges, as on the ghastly Dapol chassis.

When I built one of these kits I simply used plastic section to make a new underframe, as there is little detail needed, and by using etched w-irons I could get the correct 9' 9" wheelbase. I can't recall which castings I used for brakegear and boxes and springs, but I was pleased with the result, which is just that little bit different from the Nucast and 5&9 wooden framed versions.

I became aware of this just after I'd put the thing together. I've tried to cut away the bottom edge of the channel, with limited success. It's not possible above the springs.

[Nile]

A coat of primer has removed the ghostly white appearance. The filled corners have turned out quite well.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile

[57xx]

On 27/05/2019 at 11:02, Compound2632 said:

The unpainted woodwork is clearly grimy but lighter in shade than the external painted woodwork.

 

Certainly not "coal black".

[Nile]

Now with added Phoenix paint and Methfix transfers.

 

 

The supplied roof (20thou plastikard I think) is being pre-curved before being glued to the inner roof former.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile

[Nile]

Roof parts now stuck together and painted. The inner former is a tight enough fit not to need glueing to the body. Couplings and wheels also added, so it's basically finished. That's until I spot things I've missed, probably.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile

[AlfaZagato]

What did Brighton expect to haul in these things?   That end bracing looks overkill. 

 

Excellent model, by the way.

[RedGemAlchemist]

1 hour ago, AlfaZagato said:

What did Brighton expect to haul in these things?   That end bracing looks overkill. 

No kill like it. 

[Nile]

Just by chance the next wagon across the bench is another from the south coast. It was while looking for something in a box that I came across this.

 

It's a Cambrian kit that I'd built a very long time ago, and for some reason painted blue. Apart from a repaint it only needed a few bits to complete it.

 

 

Based on a photo in Southern Wagons vol.2 I've applied SR markings to the other side. The shade of grey may be wrong but it's good enough for me.

 

 

Finally for now the two Brighton vehicles together. I did miss something on the van, the small white panel bottom left.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile

[Guy Rixon]

Very nice. The weathering of the wood is particularly effective.

[Nick C]

On 09/06/2019 at 21:09, Nile said:

 

Based on a photo in Southern Wagons vol.2 I've applied SR markings to the other side. The shade of grey may be wrong but it's good enough for me.

 

My copy of the Southern wagons book is inaccessible at the moment, so I can't check, but I'd have thought that if it was still in grey, there'd be signs of the Brighton lettering having been removed or painted out? I'd agree that the weathering is excellent though!

[O-Gauge-Phil]

All my pictures of old wagons seem to be grey. 

 

 

 

 

[Nile]

Time for an update, as I've not been completely idle, just slow.

I eventually got round to buying some transfers for my Cambrian Railways wagons from Cambrian Models, so I'd better get on and build them.

Here are the three I found in the kit pile, there may be more lurking elsewhere. I was going to leave painting all the black bits until after applying the transfers, then noticed that they cross the diagonals on the 4 plankers.

 

 

I'm only fitting the sheet rail to one of the 4 plankers for a bit of variety. The associated bits on the end of the body are etched brass.

 

 

Some more fine brushwork needed before they are finished.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nile