Are backscenes essential?

[F-UnitMad]

To be quite honest, I'm not sure my layout (O Scale US outline) would convey (or at least, attempt to convey) a sense of American Mid-West "wide open spaces" without a backscene....

[2ManySpams]

Mickey

 

Yes, I do think that a backscene is an essential part of presenting a layout to the public. 

 

I love the one that Andy Y did for Black Country Blues - very subdued colours and no joins. IMO it makes a big difference to the atmosphere of the layout. Not everyone shares this view and even one of the BRM team has been heard on the exhibition circuit expressing his dislike of the BCB backscene - just proving you can't please all the people all the time.  

 

Pet hates are seeing the PECO (or similar) ones which I feel are way too vivid and in many cases the backscene 'content' jars with the period or location of the layout itself. I recently saw a backdrop well painted but using oils - it completely overpowered the layout. The aim should be for the backscene not to be noticeable and to subtly add depth to the overall scene. 

 

I'd go for neutral boards rather than the PECO (or similar) pictures any day but, at the end of the day, I'm not going to impose my preferences on others.

 

That's the votes from Spamsville. 

[allan downes]

To be quite honest, I'm not sure my layout (O Scale US outline) would convey (or at least, attempt to convey) a sense of American Mid-West "wide open spaces" without a backscene....

 

Hi F-UnitMad.

 

I built an American narrow gauge mining layout once and to give the backscene more substance, and a reason for the railway being there, I surrounded it with tissue paper rocks glued to  blue hardboard backing.

 

I you want, I have pictures of it that I could put up but the last time I suggested this was on Your Model Railway Club where I got accused of hijacking by one of the moderators !!! - so I left.

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[F-UnitMad]

Hi F-UnitMad.

 

I built an American narrow gauge mining layout once and to give the backscene more substance, and a reason for the railway being there, I surrounded it with tissue paper rocks glued to  blue hardboard backing.

 

I you want, I have pictures of it that I could put up but the last time I suggested this was on Your Model Railway Club where I got accused of hijacking by one of the moderators !!! - so I left.

 

Cheers.

Allan.

Not up to me, but as the Thread is about backscenes/no backscenes I'm sure examples either way should be welcome... after all, it can hardly be hijacking a Thread by putting up a picture of the matter under discussion... ??!!

[allan downes]

OK then, here it is. I have put it up before but I  thought you might find it relevant to the thread.

 

Cheers.

Allan

 

[Donw]

Alan you have cheated that is three dimensional scenery rather than a backscene. It does look very nice though and does the job with a sky backscene. I used a similar technique to produce 'low relief' trees, painted the trunk and branches on the backscene then glued a bit of Woodland scenics foliage mat onto them

 

Taken from the side as in this picture it shows more than viewing from the front.

 

Don

[allan downes]

Alan you have cheated that is three dimensional scenery rather than a backscene. It does look very nice though and does the job with a sky backscene. I used a similar technique to produce 'low relief' trees, painted the trunk and branches on the backscene then glued a bit of Woodland scenics foliage mat onto them

sparrow 004.jpg

 

Taken from the side as in this picture it shows more than viewing from the front.

 

Don

 

You're right there Don, it is somewhat three dimensional but the idea was to hide the tracks running along the backthat formed the loop the loop where if anything acted up along the hidden back stretch - where else !! - all I had to do was to lift the tissue paper rocks to  get to at a naughty loco or whatever ! 

 

Because the tissue paper was heavily creased, it was self supporting where it was glued to the backscene along the top edge whilst the rest was left to just droop over the tracks and do its own thing.

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[Eggesford box]

Lots of food for thought backed up by good examples.

 

I forget the name but there is an American modeller who is modelling New England and incorporated a paper mill in his layout. Since such things are pretty big places he used a photographic backscene that he produced of such a mill and ran sidings through the doorways cut out of the photos and through the backing to represent most of the mill. Since it was such a prominent part of the layout ( a forescene?) it might prove the case for the detail available in photographic backscenes. I think he might even have added some relief detail to it.

 

Tony Koester used a sheet of material either vertical or slightly angled covered with polyfibre trees to represent hillsides. Mind you that would probably work better on a layout set in Appalachia than the midwest or even the Fens.

 

Not strictly backscenes but I have seen where the track disappears under a bridge in the scenic break that there is a short sceniced section the other side of the backscene which is lit so that the train does not disappear into a black hole. Obviously the section is only short and features on the scenic side of the layout stop you getting a good long look under the bridge.

 

If I ever get round to building it I am thinking of modelling an industrial Appalachian town on part of the layout with the buildings climbing up the hillside. Possibly full size buildings in the foreground then forced perspective with smaller scale buildings transitioning to flats and finally the backscene with the colours getting progressively muted. Like I say, if I ever get round to it. I think it will involve lots of juggling around but will reduce the amount of painting of the backscene which I have doubts I would be able to do convincingly.  

[F-UnitMad]

Mike Confalone is the guy who did the Paper Mill.

Thinking of Allan's '3D rocks backscene' for example, do we make a distinction between backscenes that are flat with scenery/sky etc painted on them, and what I would term 'backdrops' which are more 3D in nature; incorporating low-relief models - houses, rocks, what-have-you. To some extent I think that sort of thing is still part of the layout 'proper', although definitely a useful way of easing the transition from edge of baseboard to flat, vertical backscene.

The most impressive backscenes I think, are those where you have to look for a very long time to work out exactly where the backscene starts.

[allan downes]

Of course we have to ask, how deep can a backscene be before it's no longer considered a backscene but has now become part of the layout proper ?

 

A backscene board would be on average about 1/8th of an inch thick and the normal thickness of harboard on which most backscenes are painted on. So, a 'proper' backscene.

 

My rock backscene was around 4 inches in depth at the bottom and the widest point so as to cover the tracks so, can it still be considered as a 'legal' backscene or ?

 

Then again, and taking this beyond the ridiculous and then some ! - what if your flat backscene board was made out of 4inch thick boarding, the same depth as my rock backscene, would that then be considered as a 'legit' backscene or not ?

 

Cheers.

Allan

[Eggesford box]

Mike Confalone is the guy who did the Paper Mill.

Thinking of Allan's '3D rocks backscene' for example, do we make a distinction between backscenes that are flat with scenery/sky etc painted on them, and what I would term 'backdrops' which are more 3D in nature; incorporating low-relief models - houses, rocks, what-have-you. To some extent I think that sort of thing is still part of the layout 'proper', although definitely a useful way of easing the transition from edge of baseboard to flat, vertical backscene.

The most impressive backscenes I think, are those where you have to look for a very long time to work out exactly where the backscene starts.

 

Thats the one I was thinking of. By a coincidence if you go to the fourth link down there is a link in that to the internet Model Railroad Hobbyist Magazine July issue that includes an article on using computer terrain generating programmes to produce backscenes. 

[Thom]

My opinion is that backscenes are very important. (As a side note I also feel that fascias should be painted flat black so as not to draw attention to them.) My layout, 'Angloshire,' pretty much a continuous double track run, is designed for viewing by the public and the fiddle yard is hidden in the center where it can be controlled from. Since there is no shunting going on it's actually quite easy. Eventually, though, it will become DCC, and then it will be easy to control it from either inside or out. The left end actually has two backscenes and the viewing public can look over the lower one on the outside and get a great view of 'Hogsmeade Station' from almost every angle. (Would that be called a frontscene?) The backscenes are painted light blue with clouds spray painted on so they do not call attention to them. I either painted trees where there were trees in front of it or used Peco backscenes cut and used judiciously behind low relief buildings in the 'Thomas and the Great Discovery' module. And, for good measure, I also painted the backs of the backscene the same light blue so that they would blend in with the backscene that was being viewed at the time by those who could see over the top. While the whole layout might not be up to some people's standards, and I still have a lot more to do on it, people did enjoy viewing it, and I think the backscenes played a big part in that. Oh, and by the way, I will be getting black skirting for certain parts of it, as well.

 

 

 

 

[allan downes]

 While the whole layout might not be up to some people's standards.....

 

Well as far as I'm concerned it's one of the best exhibition layouts I've ever seen.

 

There's obviously a lot of hard work gone into it and it was built with soul - beautiful.

 

I demand to see more !!

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[Grafarman]

My opinion is that backscenes are very important. (As a side note I also feel that fascias should be painted flat black so as not to draw attention to them.) My layout, 'Angloshire,' pretty much a continuous double track run, is designed for viewing by the public and the fiddle yard is hidden in the center where it can be controlled from. Since there is no shunting going on it's actually quite easy. Eventually, though, it will become DCC, and then it will be easy to control it from either inside or out. The left end actually has two backscenes and the viewing public can look over the lower one on the outside and get a great view of 'Hogsmeade Station' from almost every angle. (Would that be called a frontscene?) The backscenes are painted light blue with clouds spray painted on so they do not call attention to them. I either painted trees where there were trees in front of it or used Peco backscenes cut and used judiciously behind low relief buildings in the 'Thomas and the Great Discovery' module. And, for good measure, I also painted the backs of the backscene the same light blue so that they would blend in with the backscene that was being viewed at the time by those who could see over the top. While the whole layout might not be up to some people's standards, and I still have a lot more to do on it, people did enjoy viewing it, and I think the backscenes played a big part in that. Oh, and by the way, I will be getting black skirting for certain parts of it, as well.

 

Do my eyes deceive me or is that a depiction of the Froncysyllte aqueduct carrying the Llangollen canal?  Certainly looks like it, and a beauty it is too...

 

I second Allan's request for more info and pics please!  Maybe start a thread on here if you haven't already...?

 

 

 

David

[Thom]

Thanx for your comments, Allan and David. The Tovis Valley Aqueduct (1861) and Viaduct (1903) were inspired by the Chirk aqueduct and viaduct near Llangollen. I saw pictures of them a few years ago and on my 2011 Royal Wedding Trip to the UK drove up to see them, as well as the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct and the Llangollen Railway. (I did take a boat trip across and back that aqueduct which was awesome!) I absolutely fell in love with that area of North Wales and went back to see them again in 2014 and drove over to the coast and saw even more railways. Anyway, after starting Tovis Valley I heard about the (Miss) Marple Aqueduct and Viaduct near Stockport and drove there in 2014 as well. Also fascinating and the locks going down to the aqueduct are different and really great. As far as I know  those are the only two places where there is an aqueduct and viaduct next to each other. I simply had to model a set  after seeing the set at Chirk, but mine are not intended to actually replicate them.

 

I had not thought of it before but I will start a thread about my layout. Didn't even know I could do that.

[allan downes]

 

 

I had not thought of it before but I will start a thread about my layout. Didn't even know I could do that.

 

Oh but yes you can Thom, and the sooner the better !

 

Cheers.

Allan.

[Thom]

Ok, I started a thread for my layout if anyone wants to see it. I will add to it as quickly as I can, but it will take a little to get it started.

 

Thanx again for the input and suggestion.

 

Cheers

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87801-angloshire-oo-in-the-usa/

[Donw]

Think the flying Ford Anglia would be lost without a backscene which shows how the backscene can make it easier to see the modelling.

Don

[joejab95]

I'm also currently in that experimental stage. However, I'm quite pleased with the effect so far. My aim is though to put plenty of objects in front to give a more 3D feel such as a low relief pub/shops aswell as trees to give a bit more depth to the scene.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

Unfortunately any background which includes perspective can only be viewed from one position to be correct. Try taking the photo again straight on from rail level.

[Donw]

Unfortunately any background which includes perspective can only be viewed from one position to be correct. Try taking the photo again straight on from rail level.

Some years ago in the MRN Maurice Bradley (hope I have the name correct) showed how to achieve a degree of perspective but not converging to a single point. Very effective.

 

I have a problem with my loft layout in that due to the roof slope I can only have about 9in of of vertical height before the roof slope. I cannot imagine any way hills etc. could rise high enough to be on the slope without it looking distictly odd. There should be no problem with a skyscape as after all it is overhead. Has anyone any experience with this problem.

Obviously one answer would be to model the fenlands rather than the welsh hills. I suppose I could use my GWR locos on a Somerset Levels scene but the Cambrian ones would be a bit off course.

Don

[Jeff Smith]

Don,

 

Not much you can do with only 9 inches of height, I guess it might depend on your viewing angle. Assuming your eye-level is no higher than the 9 inches you could paint sky colour with a low (6") range of hills and if possible continue the sky with an additional board up the roof slope. If it is all permanently fixed in place you could put a large fillet of poly-filler at the join then cover with lining paper before painting.

 

The attached pictures show my under-construction On30 8'x 2' half-layout with permanently attached back and end boards with fillets at the corners. These were made by roughly over-filling the corners with poly-filler (spackling over here) then sanding with sand paper wrapped around a cylinder (4" diameter camping gas cylinder). The back and sides were covered with a single piece of lining paper. I just painted the backscene the other day, hopefully with very little perspective, and am in the process of matching the greenery, mostly just painted to get a rough idea.....the lighting is just for construction and eventually will be full width from the front in the hope of loosing the corners.

[Thom]

The tunnel entrance looks great and the backscene really blends in.

[Jeff Smith]

The fictional back story for this depot is that this was originally the terminus but at a later date the tunnel was driven to extend the spur. It is sort of PA set largely due to the PRR loco and cars but I plan to ignore the gauge and specific location so I can run SRRL 2' gauge stock as well!

 

Having tried a tree behind the Blacksmith's I have decided that the centre needs to be kept open to the back scene with maybe just some low bushes. I plan to make some large feature evergreen trees to go either side of the cutting and perhaps some for over tunnel, although just the lower trunks will be visible.

[CF MRC]

I am a great believer in using back scenes and diminishing scale in models: to me they are always three dimensional paintings.

 

The 'less is more' approach I think works best: let the imagination do the rest. The photo below is of the MRC's new EM layout 'Empire Mills': note that the back scene board is nicely curved, I find that the best back scenes are painted quickly - this one 8' long - was painted in a couple of hours.

 

I think that photo-based back scenes tend to be a bit fussy in many cases, but could be used as a basis, if toned down a bit and properly merged and painted into the foreground scene.

 

If you have space and the infrastructure to go with it, then the sky back scene itself can be strongly lit, which then throws light back onto the model. We use this on Copenhagen Fields. The problem of perspective can be managed by having multiple vanishing points, drawing the eye in certain directions which are then separated by relatively bland or difficult to scale features, such as trees or non-descript factories of unknown size. Certainly, using stage flats in front of a back scene proper will increase it's effectiveness and is shown in the photo of the CF goods yard under construction - the stage flat is between the viaduct and the sky/far distant lands. We aim to shows a scene portraying the vast western extent of London viewed through a good deal of pollution! We will add more detail to this as it progresses, but the foreground is what matters and will hold the eye (the back scene joint was not properly closed-up when this checking photo was taken).

 

Finally, unless one is modelling the alps, it is better to keep the horizon line relatively low, as that is where it would be, taking the elevated viewpoint from which we look at most models.

 

Tim