Modelling Electrics

[Claude_Dreyfus]

To reduce the risk of clogging up the 'Ask Dave' thread, a couple of interesting points were raised, that are thread material in their own rights...

 

A few comments from that thread to get us going.

 

Hi Mark,

The more I think about it the more I'm now convinced that AC modelling will never take off!
Controversial I know, but..........

Great overhead loco's and EMUs have been produced in both gauges, and let's face it, if this hasn't kick started that genre, then what will? I'm not sure having affordable overhead equipment available will to be honest.

If it was going to happen, it would have done so with the pendolino, 85, 92, 86, 87, 90, 91 and 350 being available, but is read the forums and there's not an outcry for more loco's or emus to make it justifiable in my eyes.
Can I honestly say I've seen more requests for, say an 84, compared to the P2 steam loco? No I can't, unfortunately.

I can't see it getting much better either as electrification progresses, we see lifeless ( in my opinion) electric boxes shuttling around.
Now the AC electrics of my youth have gone (81-87) ( yes I know the 86's cling on) where's the charisma? The wish to have 1 of each going to come from when all little jonny sees rumbling past is an EMU.
Our last charismatic AC train was the Pendolino and how many of those do you really need on a layout?

Ok, I'm rambling, but I hope you get my point, even if you think I'm wrong.
Perhaps 25 years ago the situation would have been different if the AC loco's were introduced?

Cheers
Dave

 

 

Sorry Dave and others but I am going to have to disagree with the observations regarding AC electrics.  Looking at it from an OO perspective, the simple fact is the models that have been released have been badly pitched and have no synergy with one another.  Taking things in order:

 

Hornby.  All the models are dated and have flaws.  The 87 was new when I was just starting secondary school and I'm now 51, has HO bogies and needs a lot of scalpel work, detailing and repainting to make anything decent from.  It is in no way suitable to run alongside the Bachmann 85 unless you have lots of time and skill to fettle it up.  The Hornby 86 is not much younger, early versions are best described as DCC incompatible as when you hard-wire a chip into them they become bi-polar and have poor speed control, plus yet again, they need a lot of work to make them look good, and again many people today don't have the time or resources to spend hours and pounds on getting the loco to look good, if there is the possibility of buying off the peg diesels which come fully loaded with detail.  The 90 is flawed and again is clumsy alongside the Bachmann 85.  I can't comment on the 91 as the East Coast is the dark side of the moon to me but it lacks finesse and whenever I've seen them it just doesn't look right to me.

 

Heljan.  Their 86 has well advertised flaws which to be honest only the front end and pantograph bother me, but the biggest problem was they modelled only the post 1996-7 refurbished body style, with inergen fire bottles, tdm cables and headlamp.  Therefore to get the loco back to any other era you had to start carving away at a £110+ model to remove TDMs and headlamps.  Arguably this body style tied it into the less attractive (market wise) post privatisation era and little wonder they didn't sell.  That said, you try finding an Intercity Swallow example which suggests that had Heljan modelled a style which allowed rail blue, Executive and other BR liveries without surgery, it may have sold in better numbers.  Whilst some of the privatised liveries, like Virgin, do have their devotees, again the lack of a decent 87 or 90 to run alongside the 86 in a contemporaneous layout probably held it back, more than the flaws in the body moulding.

 

Bachmann.  The 85 has become regarded as the gold standard for AC electrics, and rightly so.  But, what can you run alongside it?  Only 50 AL5s were built so you need as a minimum a decent 86 capable of being modelled as an AL6-86/0 in early blue with white cabs, and corporate Blue, and an unrefurbished 86/2 to be able to create a representative impression of the WCML in the period 1965-1995, which is the timespan of the Class 85.  Ideally you'd also need a decent 87 to model post 1974.  You could do without an 81, and I suspect it'll be a very cold day in Hell before we ever get an 82-4 and again they only ran in penny numbers.  Running unmodified Hornby 86s or 87s, the only other models currently available, would not satisfy modern modellers without a substantial investment in time and effort, and again, if you are starting out on a new project and quite fancy doing an AC layout but then realise there is only one well modelled class of AC electric, and you don't want to/have time to/have the skills to start a major surgery programme on the Hornby geriatric lumps (I choose those words deliberately) you'll move on to something more achievable out of the box

 

EMUs.  We only have one AC emu, the Desiro.  Nice model, but entered service nearly 10 years after the Class 85 was scrapped.  It's only really synergic with the Bachmann Voyagers and modern DMU fleet.  Oh and the Hornby Pendolino, which is aimed at the train-set market, with printed details and although nice, is only available currently as a train-set, and the additional coaches needed to make up a rake are increasingly difficult to find.

 

So you see, no-one can really judge the sales potential of AC electrics based on the fact we only have one decent currently available model of one class, the 85.  To be able to seriously undertake a reasonable WCML layout out of the box, we need a decent AL6-86/2 suitable to cover the 1965-95 period and an 87 to cover the 1974-1999 period.  A decent 90 wouldn't go amiss either to cover the 1987-current period, but I would suggest you could just contemplate an interesting WCML themed layout with the 85, 86 and 87.  With that we would also need a multiple unit, I would suggest a 304 covering 1960-1999 (although my personal favourite would be a 310).  We only have the 85 out there at present, so any "poor sales" or "lack of interest" is a self-fulfilling prophesy as there is a lack of models of classes of AC electric that ran alongside the 85.
 

After all, would Western region modellers be happy to keep being told that the ex Lima Warship and Hornby Western are more than adequate for them to model the Western Region diesel era?  I doubt it given the number of Western models that have been released over the years in an attempt to capture the class.

 

 

The Japanese model scene appears to have embraced multiple units in a big way.  In contrast, despite a prototype scene dominated by units, British-outline modellers have still focussed on locomotives.  Do you think this will ever change?

 

 

Hi Tim,

I love the Japanese scene , but it does reflect the trains of today from what I saw last year in Tokyo. Yes there were loco's but they weren't very common ( maybe they are and I just didn't see them).

This I assume leaves the high speed trains and EMU's that are made very well, run like a dream and are available as sets.
Maybe it's because there are so many, they are in the manufacturers and modellers phsyche and that's what they like to run?

I suppose if and when the 'glamour' loco's are tin cans conveying beans, perhaps the very young might see a Javelin or Hitachi as the norm and want to model that?
I'm not sure my answer will suffice, and I should have dodged the question with an ' I don't know' but at least it might have stimulated more thoughts on other threads?
Cheers
Dave

 

So my question is; how can manufacturers in other countries - notably Germany, Switzerland and Japan - produce good ranges of electric multiple units and locomotives, and still make a success of it, yet they do not seem to be such as success in the UK?

 

I have a few thoughts, which although are based on Japan (my area of interest), could apply in a wider context.

 

Railways - particularly (but by no means exclusively) the Shinkansen - appear a lot in more popular culture; adversing (for non-railway products), household goods, general tourist guides. They are considerably prouder of their trains than we are; and this includes the ordinary units - not just the Bullets or the locomotives. I was in a department store in Tokyo last month, perusing the model railway section (yes, they have model railway departments in department stores!), I saw a lady purchasing a train for her son; it was not a Bullet, or even a locomotive, it was a bog-standard Tokyo suburban unit. 

 

We (i.e the British public) spend all our time bashing our railways, and trying to hark back to the days where trains were 'interesting' and 'varied'; to the point where many modellers just do not want a class 350 EMU or a top-spec class 90. Personally I would love a model (or two, or three) of a Southern class 377, despite spending 3 hours a day on them, but many modellers who do commute just want to leave the 'real world' behind and retreat into rose-tinted spectacle land (not a criticism, just one of those things).

 

Is it around the synergy of the products available, or is it a combination of the generally low regard in which our railways are held and the perception that EMUs and electric locomotives are boring? Would a larger range of EMUs and overhead locos encourage more into modelling this subject, or will it always be a fringe interest?

[298]

I think the problem started 25-30 years ago when AC models to contemporary standards were available, but the "ready-to-plonk" catenary ranges weren't widely available or accepted by modellers.

 

Nowadays, time previously spent detailing locos or building structures doesn't seem to be utilised elsewhere, all that happens is someone builds a layout quicker despite probably having less time, then moves on. I'd agree with the concept that the current range doesn't allow the complete picture to be modelled, but an 81 from Bachmann must be a certainty and possibly something else.

 

I can't comment on popularity as I've always been an overhead fan since the days as a kid seeing them at the local station and running up and down the garden, holding the broom to the washing line. If anything, I'm glad it's a minority interest as I've found such complications to be an agreeable challenge to overcome.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi all,

I have a fascination with electric traction as I consider that models of electrics to be the closest to the prototype as they use effectively the same form of propulsion and my theory of why overhead electrics are less popular in the UK is thus;

Historically OHE is very geographically limited in the UK and where it did exist, the operations were somewhat limited, the NE operations being the only area where there was a bit more action, I.e. shunting and freight.

Where OHE did become more obvious, like the Woodhead line, most British observers tended to concentrate on steam operations instead.

Since the introduction of OHE to the WCML, the loco classes concerned were seen as boxes on wheels as they really do look very similar to each other! I think you need to be a very educated spotter to tell the differences until you are right up close!

Compare this situation with that in foreign countries.

OHE brought into use quite commonly before WW1, using fascinating rod drive and or articulated machines.

Different liveries in use for passenger and freight machines.

Electric locos being used for shunting and trip freight operations.

Development of ever faster and more powerful machines.

Widespread use of OHE such that it becomes an everyday feature of the railways.

Model makers catering to this scene from an early stage

Current models following the prototype in becoming ever more sophisticated, backed up by availability of full, accurate lineside and overhead equipment.

It's not just Japan, Germany, France, Switzerland and Austria that are so catered for, you can also add the Low Countries,USA, Italy and Scandinavia too as well as various E. European nations coming on line, as it were.

 

So, to summarise, I think the problem with OHE modelling in the UK is less to do with the model manufacturers as with the prototype itself! Combined with the typical British spotters attitudes, by which I mean "if its not steam, it's not worth looking at!"

I was recently surprised to learn that many hundreds of British spotters took up plane spotting after 1968!

Cheers,

John E.

[Dagworth]

I think one of the reasons why I like modelling electrics is because so much work is required and it is not all available ready to plonk/run.

 

Are we modellers or box openers?

 

A

[Allegheny1600]

Sadly,

I think the majority of people involved in this hobby are "box openers", its only the likes of us who are in the 2 or 3% who actually make things but, each to their own. As without the people who buy the boxes, we would be forced to make everything!

Whereas as things stand, some of us can concentrate on the ancillary models that enhance what comes out of a box.

Sorry! This is veering rapidly off topic,

Back to modelling electric outline trains!

Cheers,

John E.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Sadly,

I think the majority of people involved in this hobby are "box openers", its only the likes of us who are in the 2 or 3% who actually make things but, each to their own. As without the people who buy the boxes, we would be forced to make everything!

Whereas as things stand, some of us can concentrate on the ancillary models that enhance what comes out of a box.

Sorry! This is veering rapidly off topic,

Back to modelling electric outline trains!

Cheers,

John E.

 

To be honest, I am not sure this is massively off-topic. I'm sure a contributory factor is the preference to run stuff out of the box. It is just that this is possible when modelling Japanese or Continental European outline.

 

I suppose the question there is, would a wide range of electric locos and units (along with the necessary support equipment) encourange more to model this subject, or is the current range big enough to indicate that wide-scale adoption is unlikely?

[298]

There are also a couple of popular misconceptions when building and exhibiting ohle layouts- the first being that the wires HAVE to be live and used exclusively for current collection (tried that, it didn't work), and the second being you have to use really thick overscale wires because nobody has thought of tensioning thinner ones.

 

No wonder people aren't willing to attempt ohle modelling with such prejudices and misinformation out there...

[wombatofludham]

As one of the protagonists in the earlier debate, I'm going to get a bit provocative: I think it's a wider national psyche and prejudice thing.

 

The overwhelming majority of model layouts appear to inhabit two highly selective and imaginary Awdryesque worlds of the past.  Miss Marpleshire, where a Big 4 company wanders through an immaculate countryside of cosy thatched buildings, where Miss Marple is having a nice chinwag with the Vicar and the Doctor outside the always open thatched post office, where PC Nice but not too bright is cuffing the local ruffians for scrumping, and whilst the Famous Five drink lashings of ginger beer and eat copious tonnage of cake without any threat of obesity watching the branch line local pass by hauled by a copper kettle, with chocolate and cream coaches at frequencies the London Underground would consider excessive, into a station with a goods yard which handles tonnages far beyond those ever achieved by the Paddington goods depot in the war. 

 

The alternative is Father Brownshire, where British Railways hasn't succumbed to Beeching and where a mix of BR steam and early Diseaseles happily co-exist working through a countryside or small town, a little bit dog-eared after the War but replete with Moggie Minors and Oxfords, Bedford OBs and Bristol half-cabs which are certainly not competition for the railway, which is still hauling incredible tonnages of freight and which seemingly makes a profit despite being shunted twice round the Earth during the course of an hour, and still shifting passengers at Metro frequencies to and fro.

 

Turning off the battery acid for a while, much as I sneer I do actually like Miss Marpleshire and Father Brownshire layouts despite their Polarised rose tinted imagery.  The problem is, the general view in Britain is the 70s were a constant strike and bleak , the 80s were greedy and vile, the 90s were boring and as for the 2000s, well we've gone to hell on the last Miss Marpleshire replacement bus which was foreign built and broke down on the border with Father Brownshire.  These periods are associated with diesels and electrics and therefore uniformly awful.  Everyone wants to remember the sixties as swinging Carnaby Street and thinks that was everywhere across the UK, the 50s were fab rock and roll, candy stripes and pastel colours, the 40s were Britain at its best and the 30s a glamour decade of streamlined loveliness with well hidden pockets of poverty we can ignore.  Contrast this with Germany where the 1950s are seen as the decade Germany re-invented and rebuilt itself after the pre-war horrors, the 60s are the decade of progress and industrial might, the 70s, apart from some "unpleasantness", was the decade of stylish TEE trains and continuing modernisation, the 80s were when Germany repositioned itself at the centre of Europe and continued to dominate European economics, the 90s  were all about the Glorious Reunification, and post 2000 is all about the confidence to openly discuss the past and become self confident, and you get a completely different attitude to the past and present.  Generally speaking most European countries are more positive about the recent past than the UK for whom history had it's apogee in the 1940s, and ended in the 1960s.  This national psyche translates into model railways where most people want to recreate their imagined past.  In Europe, this is largely electrification, high speed trains and some supporting steam, in the UK it's only steam, and at a push some heritage diesel stuff.  Except the Southern of course, where some electrics are tolerated but being older than some steam classes, are effectively electric kettles, or the racy glamour of the Brighton Belle where Miss Marple would spend a lovely hour chatting with Father Brown over kippers, scones and tea.

 

In short, Europeans associate the best years of the country with modern traction, in Britain, we associate the best years of our country with flappers, khaki uniforms or Harold Macmillan.  Electric traction on the other hand is associated with Beeching, the nearest thing to a nervous breakdown for many enthusiasts.  Unlike me, who associates electric traction with a wonderful primary school, my first rail trips, the joy of meetings in London commencing with a first class Full English and being part of my life for the first forty plus years.

 

National psyche.  I'm completely convinced it has a lot to do with how we model.

 

[CKPR]

I think there have been two golden eras for electric railways, namely the present day (yawn !) and the Edwardian era when all manner of weird and wonderful electric engines and stock could be seen on the NER, LYR, MR, LNWR, LBSC and LSWR to say nothing of the various electric railways in London. Trouble is, to model the latter era means that we're back to model-making rather than box opening...

[wombatofludham]

I think one of the reasons why I like modelling electrics is because so much work is required and it is not all available ready to plonk/run.

 

Are we modellers or box openers?

 

A

 

I don't know why people get so sniffy about RTR, it doesn't have to be so black and white.

 

If you are a diesel modeller, you can get a nicely detailed model with lots of separately fitted details which looks good.  That frees up time to do "light modelling" on it, to customise it with new numbers, a bit of weathering and a bit of detailing depending on taste.  If you are trying to model say a Class 87, you've got months of carving off moulded lumps, repainting, fabricating new bogies, remotoring and detailing assuming you have the expert skillset to do all these tasks.  And then start again as you will need several.  Some people will have the time and skills to do that.  Many won't.  I'm fortunate to have got very early retirement and still don't have time to do such major engineering to get a model that won't look odd next to a Bachmann 47 or 85, as I'm building two layouts, and have other calls on my time.  Having a good standard model to start with, which I can then spend an hour on to weather, renumber and customise, would be a massive help, allowing me to fit in some modelling amongst everything else I have to do.  And I say that despite having undertaken "moderate" detailing and painting jobs on the Hornby 86, but if I'm going to have anywhere near enough 86s and 87s for the layout, I'd have to give up all my voluntary work in the community, the layout building itself and just spend every spare hour hacking away at crude 1970s models and probably send myself mad in the process.  Having a half decent modern standard shortcut would save a lot of time.  That's not too much to ask is it?

 

I don't agree with this attitude that box-opening is lazy and unless you've got a full set of drills, lathes and scalpels to spend weeks on major surgery on your models you are somehow indolent and need a kick up the 'arris to do some "real modelling".  With the current range of AC models (Class 85 excepted) there is so much work needed to get them to run well, look good and come close to current RTR standards that a lot of people don't have time to do it, assuming their railway isn't the only leisure activity they have, so look for some other subject which allows them to take a short cut and still have time to operate their layouts.  And have a life.

 

 

[Ian Fisher]

I think the wide range of supporting models just has not yet arrived.

 

There seems little synergy between what has been avialable to make a model work from scratch. Despite the rollig stock being nearly sixty years old if you look at various parts of the WCML over the blue peroid onwards there is little that has been available to make an accurate rendition of few parts of the WCML.

 

Compare this to a sub pre grouping era products and I am sure the picture would be brighter.

[Dagworth]

If you are a diesel modeller, you can get a nicely detailed model with lots of separately fitted details which looks good.  That frees up time to do "light modelling" on it, to customise it with new numbers, a bit of weathering and a bit of detailing depending on taste.  If you are trying to model say a Class 87, you've got months of carving off moulded lumps, repainting, fabricating new bogies, remotoring and detailing assuming you have the expert skillset to do all these tasks.  And then start again as you will need several.  Some people will have the time and skills to do that.  Many won't.  I'm fortunate to have got very early retirement and still don't have time to do such major engineering to get a model that won't look odd next to a Bachmann 47 or 85, as I'm building two layouts, and have other calls on my time.  Having a good standard model to start with, which I can then spend an hour on to weather, renumber and customise, would be a massive help, allowing me to fit in some modelling amongst everything else I have to do.  And I say that despite having undertaken "moderate" detailing and painting jobs on the Hornby 86, but if I'm going to have anywhere near enough 86s and 87s for the layout, I'd have to give up all my voluntary work in the community, the layout building itself and just spend every spare hour hacking away at crude 1970s models and probably send myself mad in the process.  Having a half decent modern standard shortcut would save a lot of time.  That's not too much to ask is it?

If carving up and making a silk purse from a sow's ear is what you enjoy, and the end result gives you something that is different to what you see on so many other layouts, then that can be an enjoyable part of the hobby too. Look at it as modelling, and therefore fun, rather than a task and laborious.

 

A

['CHARD]

I love the richness and depth of thought that's been evinced by this thread.  However, the decision is dead easy for me, as the Waverley was never wired (although it might be in the future!), and even Carlisle was knitting-free in January '69.

 

Not being flippant though, what a lot of us model, either knowingly or because we subliminally gravuitate towards it, is a mixed traffic, generic railway - exemplified by the Secondary Main Line traversing Miss Marpleshire and Father Brownshire.  Sometimes imagined, others (as in my case) based very firmly on researched and evidenced operations and traffic patterns. 

 

People are maybe comfortable with average sized trains, in sub-metropolis environments.  The AC electric railway in itself was less mixed traffic than many secondary routes; long rakes of MkIIs and liner trains predominated, relieved by the odd diesel and EMU. 

[darrel]

As a modeller near Glasgow brought up with Scottish EMU s I would love to do a layout that had 303s and 314s and 318 and 320s but there are none ready to run. 

Now out of those classes the 303s ran in Manchester, and all the others have similar classes running in England. So they are not just limited to a specific area they have also carried many liveries. 

When I got my first train set. I wanted a class 37 as I saw them everyday going past my primary school on the west highland line. I wanted the type of train I could associate with. For many young people today that would be an EMU. How many young kids are going to take up the hobby because of a model of some type of steam engine they have never seen before?

We have seen 3rd rail EMU s come out in the last few years but they are no use for anyone doing models north of London. The class 350 was the wrong type of EMU to model. If they had done a 320, 321,322 they would have sold a lot more.

['CHARD]

As a modeller near Glasgow brought up with Scottish EMU s I would love to do a layout that had 303s and 314s and 318 and 320s but there are none ready to run. 

Now out of those classes the 303s ran in Manchester, and all the others have similar classes running in England. So they are not just limited to a specific area they have also carried many liveries. 

When I got my first train set. I wanted a class 37 as I saw them everyday going past my primary school on the west highland line. I wanted the type of train I could associate with. For many young people today that would be an EMU. How many young kids are going to take up the hobby because of a model of some type of steam engine they have never seen before?

 

I think you inadvertantly hit the nail on the head.  37s fired your interest, and I would suggest it wasn't only the sight of them, but the sound and smell too.  In this scenario, the EMUs are playing supporting roles.

 

Can an anonymous, and relatively characterless EMU (no smell and little sound), really capture the imagination of lads, when the competition for their free time is infintely more hi-tech (and addictive) than it was in our youth?

[Ian Fisher]

I think you inadvertantly hit the nail on the head.  37s fired your interest, and I would suggest it wasn't only the sight of them, but the sound and smell too.  In this scenario, the EMUs are playing supporting roles.

 

Can an anonymous, and relatively characterless EMU (no smell and little sound), really capture the imagination of lads, when the competition for their free time is infintely more hi-tech (and addictive) than it was in our youth?

 

 

A good 323 could spook a few people....

['CHARD]

A good 323 could spook a few people....

 

We've got an Elec Eng here who can do an impression indistinguishable from the real thing! 

 

They are what you might call 'vocal' !   

[Ian Fisher]

As a modeller near Glasgow brought up with Scottish EMU s I would love to do a layout that had 303s and 314s and 318 and 320s but there are none ready to run. 

Now out of those classes the 303s ran in Manchester, and all the others have similar classes running in England. So they are not just limited to a specific area they have also carried many liveries. 

When I got my first train set. I wanted a class 37 as I saw them everyday going past my primary school on the west highland line. I wanted the type of train I could associate with. For many young people today that would be an EMU. How many young kids are going to take up the hobby because of a model of some type of steam engine they have never seen before?

We have seen 3rd rail EMU s come out in the last few years but they are no use for anyone doing models north of London. The class 350 was the wrong type of EMU to model. If they had done a 320, 321,322 they would have sold a lot more.

 

 

You can of course get support for 303  via DC kits and 318 and 320 via kit built rtr via Bratchell models. I dont think the 350 was a bad platform as more are built and will see wider use across the country and then there are the many desiro family classes Bachmann are yet to exploit. But yes RTR support is scant.

 

You say the mark three family would have been better, the problem then though would have been which lvery variants to go with first the 350 had two...much simpler to acheive

[Dagworth]

Can an anonymous, and relatively characterless EMU (no smell and little sound)

You ever been near an EMU with a controlled emission toilet?

 

A

[Andy Reichert]

They just don't make EMU's like they used to.  Arrrrrrrrr. . . .

 

Andy

 

Non Smoker. Grew up in awe of the 306's. Regular Class 305 rider 1960-70.

[jamie92208]

As someone who grew up in the steam era (I was 15 in 1968) I can't explain my fascination for overhead electrics but fascinated I am.  Therefore when i was looking for a prototype location for a follow on model to Long Preston that could use the same stock (1923 ish Midland) I plumped for Lancaster Green Ayre complete with Overhead and EMU's.  I still haven't managed to actually erect any catenary yet but have had a great deal of fun researching the electric side of things.  Having been given a goldmine of information, namely the original contract drawings for the OHLE steelwork, I couldn't let the info go to waste.  That led me into CAD and self produced etchings.   I'm also building the EMU's. Along the way I've met some very helpful people, such as Jim Smith Wright of Birmingham New Street and Graham Clark of Netherwood sidings.   Hopefully it will all come together and look OK and even work, though not with live current in it.   So far the jouney has been great fun.

 

Jamie

[Michael Delamar]

One of my electrics.

 

[Dagworth]

One two of mine

[Andy Reichert]

One two of mine

PICT0017.JPG

 

Do you have that size, but in Maroon?

 

Andy

[Dagworth]

Do you have that size, but in Maroon?

 

Andy

 Not maroon I'm afraid, we do stock it in a fetching blue and grey though...

 

A