Modelling Electrics

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

Pictures of mine

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[darrel]

I think you inadvertantly hit the nail on the head.  37s fired your interest, and I would suggest it wasn't only the sight of them, but the sound and smell too.  In this scenario, the EMUs are playing supporting roles.

 

Can an anonymous, and relatively characterless EMU (no smell and little sound), really capture the imagination of lads, when the competition for their free time is infintely more hi-tech (and addictive) than it was in our youth?

.

Yes to a point a class 37 struggling up the 1 in 58 from Craigendoran on a wet rail takes some beating. But I was also fascinated by the class 303s which ran to my local station. With the refurbished units you could sit behind the driver and look out the front. The 303s had lots of character. They were also great looking trains. Even when they were 40 years old they did not look dated. 

a model of a 303 would sell more that the blue pulman. More liveries wider operating area and lasted longer

[Rivercider]

 

People are maybe comfortable with average sized trains, in sub-metropolis environments.  The AC electric railway in itself was less mixed traffic than many secondary routes; long rakes of MkIIs and liner trains predominated, relieved by the odd diesel and EMU. 

I think the length of trains must be important here, most of my AC memories are of changing trains at New Street, Crewe and Stafford, all far too large for most to model.

Also a couple of visits to Nuneaton, where it must be said the sight of a 81-87 flying through at the head of a WCML service or Freightliner was pretty impressive, but long.

Many of the short workings on the WCML I saw were 08s or diesels shunting or on trip work, or DMUs.

 

There must be proportionately far more 14XX/autocoach or single power car DMUs (to use 2 examples) at work on model railways than ever there were in real life of most other types of train.

There are plenty of 2-car DMUs available RTR to operate a real or fictional line from pretty much anywhere on BR over several decades, but even most of the AC EMUs I remember were 4 cars,

 

cheers 

[298]

I can generally agree and can sympathise with Wombat in post 10, part of the appeal (or conversely off-putting) is the need to engineer a loco to suit your overhead. Which will inevitably mean changing the pan, and detailing the roof to suit. Also, the concept of bringing a loco up to contemporary levels of detail firmly places my fleet in a past era, indeed the Bachmann 85 release was the point at which I drew a line under my 4mm AC stuff as I felt I'd have to redo the whole fleet to match. Looking at fellow club members builds from 30+ years ago shows lots more factory standard details, but the roofs are generally reworked as they were the most visible bits when whizzing past at speed.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I have always had a fascination with electric traction I guess being brought up with it as a child with the Bakerloo, North London DC lines and watching the West Coast mainline being electrified. Our formative years stay with us all of our lives in one way or another and in my case with regards to railways resulted in initially my involvement with first Ripper Street and then Croxley Wiggenhall Road Depot.

 

Every form of traction has has it's own charms and with electrics it's the whining traction motors the flashing arcs and all those jumper cables etc for me. I am also very interested in US trolleys and LRV's I inspired by some great times spent in @ Boston 25 years ago.

 

In conclusion it is your own experiences which determine your modeling tastes. Maybe electric modeling will grow as more and more new real traction is electric

[298]

We've got an Elec Eng here who can do an impression indistinguishable from the real thing! 

 

They are what you might call 'vocal' !   

BeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeepBeep

Whirrrrr....clunk. Hissss

Buzzzz Whirr Whirr Whhiiirrrrrr Whirr Thunk Thunk Thunk Thunk Thunk (wheel flats).

[wombatofludham]

If carving up and making a silk purse from a sow's ear is what you enjoy, and the end result gives you something that is different to what you see on so many other layouts, then that can be an enjoyable part of the hobby too. Look at it as modelling, and therefore fun, rather than a task and laborious.

 

A

I agree up to a point, I enjoy customising stock to make it less shop bought and unique.  It is a task and extremely frustrating though I choose to do it, but on a limited time allowance.

 

The point I was making was I simply don't have time despite being retired to devote to the level and amount of work needed to get the currently available models up to anything remotely near scratch, compared to say an 85 which needs weathering, renumbering and some tweaking, but fundamentally doesn't need much more, and I suspect most modellers are in that time-poor position. 

 

You can customise more 85s in a given amount of hours than even one 87 because you've got a fundamentally accurate model to start with.

[trisonic]

Great thread! Says he, a child of the ex GER  OHLE.

 

Best, Pete.

[298]

One alternative is to model somewhere with a relatively small roster:

 

 

My favourite era would have been around 100 years ago in North America, when Interurban cars would have run at 60mph out in the country, then run right down the middle of the road into town.

 

[Xerces Fobe2]

 

A few items of electric traction on Croxley Wiggenhall Road Depot

 

XF

[Dagworth]

I agree up to a point, I enjoy customising stock to make it less shop bought and unique.  It is a task and extremely frustrating though I choose to do it, but on a limited time allowance.

 

The point I was making was I simply don't have time despite being retired to devote to the level and amount of work needed to get the currently available models up to anything remotely near scratch, compared to say an 85 which needs weathering, renumbering and some tweaking, but fundamentally doesn't need much more, and I suspect most modellers are in that time-poor position. 

 

You can customise more 85s in a given amount of hours than even one 87 because you've got a fundamentally accurate model to start with.

Rather like rail travel itself, I regard the journey as being more important than the destination.

 

A

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Some great photos there, of a pair of layouts I have been fortunate enough to admire 'in the flesh' so to speak.

 

It is true that almost all UK-outline 'electric' layouts feature kits, scratch-built or heavily modified r-t-r; but from my experience modelling Japanese outline, I was able to obtain ready to run every major type of unit that operated in the region and period I was interested in. I am very lucky that my interests are so well catered for; somebody wanting to model the Great Eastern, or Brighton main lines, or the Glasgow suburban network, is nowhere near as fortunate; particularly if they do not have the time or skill to produce the necessary trains.

 

I suspect these modellers are limited in number, but does the relative lack of ready to run stuff they can relate to limit this too much? Sadly, this is the chicken and egg question that probably requires some big risks from manufacturers. I'm afraid I tend to agree that we will never see the range of units available to British modellers that Japanese modellers enjoy.

 

Our club's former layout - Yamanouchi Oshika - was predominantly unit operated; and almost exclusively by overhead electric stock. Unusual, but for me fascinating...

 

 

 

Note in this picture of an EH200 the usual Japanese (and other layouts, particularly in N) cheat with overhead...no wires. Noticeable in this picture...less so from normal viewing distance. 

 

['CHARD]

 

Yes to a point a class 37 struggling up the 1 in 58 from Craigendoran on a wet rail takes some beating. But I was also fascinated by the class 303s which ran to my local station. With the refurbished units you could sit behind the driver and look out the front. The 303s had lots of character. They were also great looking trains. Even when they were 40 years old they did not look dated. 

a model of a 303 would sell more that the blue pulman. More liveries wider operating area and lasted longer

 

 

I completely agree, loved the 303s and 311s. Made travelling round Glasgow to gigs and brew pubs a delight!

[Talltim]

When I was a kid in the 80s my layout had catenary, installed by my Dad. The wires were Somerfelt, as were the single masts, the headspans were scratchbuilt from Plastruct girders and copper wire. The hidden sidings under the higher level had overhead built from rail. The electrification covered the doubletrack roundy-roundy mainline, two loops in the hidden section and and a couple of crossovers between. It worked really well, looked pretty realistic and was great fun, as it was powered so allowed running extra locos in those pre-DCC days. My two 87s and 86 hauled many a mainline passenger train at speed through the station.

Looking it back, it must have been a lot of work, especially for a a full time working father with two children and his own layout to build, so thanks Dad.

I grew up firstly in Hatfield, which was electrified, but only the suburban trains and then Harpenden, which was the same. I think I have only travelled on the WCML less than 10 times (all pre privatisation) so it wasn't a case of modelling what I knew, I just liked the electrics (and still do).

I choose what I want to model by whether I am interested in it, not by what is available. If RTR is available I have no problem using it, but if it isn't, or is old that's not going to stop me, it will just be slower to build. The building is part of modelling so its not really an issue. I don't feel like I have to get a layout finished and start on the next one, although I do like running stuff.

If I was modelling the UK, it would probably involve electrics, the WCML during electrification with both electrics and 50s has its attractions. As it is Andy (298)'s interurbans appeal (although at an earlier period, there was a huge amount of electrified lines in the US back in the day) or possibly the Hoosac Tunnel.

I think its the interface between electrified and non-electrified lines is the most interesting.

There is an certain irony that more mainline US electric locos are available RTR (in brass form, mainly secondhand obviously) than UK ones.

[Karhedron]

I suppose the question there is, would a wide range of electric locos and units (along with the necessary support equipment) encourange more to model this subject, or is the current range big enough to indicate that wide-scale adoption is unlikely?

That is the big question. Conversations with UK manufacturers would seem to indicate that they believe the second to be the correct answer. In short, whilst a bigger range of models would encourage more uptake, there is not enough critical mass of interest to make electric prototypes sell well. At least, not to the point where it is worth allocating valuable manufacturing slots to them alonside steam and diesel prototypes.

 

If there was a range of modern-spec electric locos, a couple of matching EMUs and maybe some decent kits to cover the rest of the range, would OHEL modelling rival other popular subjects? My hunch is that it would not (although I would happily join in).

 

In N gauge, I believe Dapol missed a trick by not releasing the unrefurbished version of the 86. Banger Blue is quite popular at the moment. Some electric blue 86s hauling maroon coaches would (just) fit into the transition era and could be run alongside the final handful of steam engines.

 

 

 

I think there have been two golden eras for electric railways, namely the present day (yawn !) and the Edwardian era when all manner of weird and wonderful electric engines and stock could be seen on the NER, LYR, MR, LNWR, LBSC and LSWR to say nothing of the various electric railways in London. Trouble is, to model the latter era means that we're back to model-making rather than box opening...

Actually I rather like the late 80s/early 90s on the WCML. The class 90s had just been introduced along with Mk3 DVTs for some modern push-pull action but 87s and 86s were still the mainstay. Indeed, a handful of the earlier electric classes could still be seen on the odd freight or ECS working. On the suburban side, rail blue was just giving way NSE. There were a mix of 317s, brand new 321s as well as 313s on the DC lines. At peak hours you cuold even see the old Mk1 cobbler set rattling out on its way to Northampton. To me, this was an interesting transition era in its own right. The swansong of the last pioneer electric classes contrasting with the arrival of the modern push-pull fixes rakes with everything in between.

[Karhedron]

Since everyone else is getting theirs out to show them off, I thought you might as well see mine too (steady on now missus ). My early efforts at modelling the OHEL scene relied rather heavily on the products of MTK.

 

 

[sparks]

I think the length of trains must be important here, most of my AC memories are of changing trains at New Street, Crewe and Stafford, all far too large for most to model.

Also a couple of visits to Nuneaton, where it must be said the sight of a 81-87 flying through at the head of a WCML service or Freightliner was pretty impressive, but long.

Many of the short workings on the WCML I saw were 08s or diesels shunting or on trip work, or DMUs.

 

There must be proportionately far more 14XX/autocoach or single power car DMUs (to use 2 examples) at work on model railways than ever there were in real life of most other types of train.

There are plenty of 2-car DMUs available RTR to operate a real or fictional line from pretty much anywhere on BR over several decades, but even most of the AC EMUs I remember were 4 cars,

 

cheers 

 

I think you may be onto something here. I'm not sure if my liking for branchlines and byways led to a liking for short electric trains or whether looking for short trains that were 'easier' to model led me to branchlines and byways!

 

There are plenty of short EMUs out there though, although mostly historical. The Underground gives us the South Acton shuttle (single cars, or two motors when unavailable), the Aldwych shuttle (1,2 or 3 cars depending on period), Epping-Ongar (2,3 or 4 cars depending on period) or the East London Line (3 or 4 cars depending on period and/or Met vs. District operation). More recently I've been looking at Southern units such as 2-NOL, 2-BIL, 2-SL, 2-WIM and 2-EPB operating on lines such as South London line, Wimbledon-West Croydon and the 1980s North London Line.

[Titan]

But none of them ran on 25kv OLE!  The only 25kv EMU shorter than 3 cars was the 2 car Class 309, which was only used to strengthen longer trains for a bit of extra acceleration, and would not normally (if ever) be in passenger service alone. Having said that, three cars is hardly a long train and there are plenty of OLE EMU classes with three cars.

[Satan's Goldfish]

My AC interest stems from when i was a young Goldfish living in darkest Norfolk. Earliest train memories are of when blue/grey was starting to give way to Intercity Exec colours on the Norwich-Liverpool Street services. Norwich local services were covered by blue/grey class 101 DMUs which i was occasionally treated to a ride on, but the highlight for me was always being at Norwich and seeing the big clean class 86s on the London trains. That's the lasting impression i have and is what i still like today. My first 'big' Hornby engine was an 86 in swallow livery. Never had any OHLE to go with it though.

 

The old 1st gen DMUs have never done much for me but i can remember being more taken with the colourfulness of the sprinters when they started to appear. We had at least 1 maybe 2 trips to London on the train when i was little, and again the GE EMUs in their bright NSE livery really appealled to me and i can remember being dissapointed that there were none available to craze my mum and dad for to go on my 'train set'.

 

My AC interest is more restricted to GE operations than the usual WCML of most, and apart from the odd 90 it's always been mostly 86s that float my boat. AFAIK, 81 - 85 didn't make it over to the east. As already mentioned, Bratchel cover a large range of EMUs, not quite ready to run but it's the closest i'm ever likely to find. I'd love to own a couple but the limiting factor with a 4 car unit is the cost. My modelling ability and time are not the greatest to try and create finescale replicas of the 86s i desire from the old Hornby model. I'm aware of the Heljan offering but also that it's apperance is too modern for my era of choice. I'm aware that in the long run, to create a GE layout i will have to scratch build catenary, any producer of ready to plonk GE OHLE would score well out of me!

 

Even when a manufacturer does attempt to provide some stock for a specific line though, they don't always cover everything to create a service. Take Hornby and Anglia Railways for example: they released a couple of 86s in Anglia livery and a run of mk2s. However it's still not possibly to create a complete Anglia set from their stock alone. They missed out the mk3 buffet and the DBSO at the end. It also doesn't help that the mk2 SO they created were all 7 window examples, not the more common 8. some 'modelling' is still required to create the missing parts. For the less skilled and time constrained modeller this could disuade them from persuing modelling those services.

 

So from my point of view, the answer to 'would a wide range of electric locos and units (along with the necessary support equipment) encourange more to model this subject, or is the current range big enough to indicate that wide-scale adoption is unlikely?' is that the current range (or lack of) does not provide enough to indicate what the actual take-up would be. I don't think you'd suddenly see every layout covered in OHLE if it was available, but a good indicator of the take up maybe to see what percentage of layouts now have 3rd rail since the influx of suitable EMUs a few years ago.

 

In the real world, there were more class 83s even than there was the 1 HS4000, but Heljan still tooled up to make a limited run of that for us.......

[Karhedron]

any producer of ready to plonk GE OHLE would score well out of me!

Dapol do the single masts already and I believe they are planning to do "portal" style catenary as well.

 

 

Even when a manufacturer does attempt to provide some stock for a specific line though, they don't always cover everything to create a service. Take Hornby and Anglia Railways for example: they released a couple of 86s in Anglia livery and a run of mk2s. However it's still not possibly to create a complete Anglia set from their stock alone. They missed out the mk3 buffet and the DBSO at the end. It also doesn't help that the mk2 SO they created were all 7 window examples, not the more common 8. some 'modelling' is still required to create the missing parts. For the less skilled and time constrained modeller this could disuade them from persuing modelling those services.

I guess it depends on how accurate you want to be. How many of us have room for a full length rake? I agree that the lack of DBSO is a bit of a killer but Bachmann are bringing out the blue/grey and Scotrail versions. I am sure that IC and Anglia liveries will follow in due course.

[Dagworth]

Dapol do the single masts already and I believe they are planning to do "portal" style catenary as well.

 

Yes, Dapol have the single mast correct for stuff north of Colchester, but the portal is not correct at all for that area, it being headspans. The portals on the GE are either lattice stuff from Shenfield to Colchester or ex DC south of Shenfield. 

The headspans that go with the Dapol cantilevers are pretty similar to what Somerfeldt make so that may be an option, otherwise headspans are not hard to make, I made quite a few for Dagworth which is GE based.

 

Andi

[CKPR]

One alternative is to model somewhere with a relatively small roster:

 

IMAG0280.jpg

 

My favourite era would have been around 100 years ago in North America, when Interurban cars would have run at 60mph out in the country, then run right down the middle of the road into town.

 

IMAG0491.jpg

I love the old North American interurban scene  - any chance of some more photographs, track plan, stock list, etc 

[298]

I love the old North American interurban scene  - any chance of some more photographs, track plan, stock list, etc

 

I'm afraid I can't offer much in the way of a web presence (it's on the long term list) but the layout has a topic here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33657-wiley-city/

 

Don Ross has a fairly conclusive roster: http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr178.htm

 

I am slowly working on a "Stock for the YVT" type article, but that won't be in print until it ties in with a show, and not until I've built the Baldwin "A", no. 299 (I have a pre-order in with the Model Railroad Warehouse for a Red Ball kit but am thinking of doing my own in 3D). This layout was in March 2012 Continental Modeller, the previous "Selah" was in March 2006.

 

I knew nothing of Interurbans when I first read about Yakima, and vouched to model it one day. There are of course hundreds of others to choose from...!

[Gordon H]

There are also a couple of popular misconceptions when building and exhibiting ohle layouts- the first being that the wires HAVE to be live and used exclusively for current collection (tried that, it didn't work), and the second being you have to use really thick overscale wires because nobody has thought of tensioning thinner ones.

 

While the wires don't have to be live, it is much more satisfying to know that they are, and it certainly can be made to work as we demonstrated with High Gill for many years at shows.

The second point regarding overscale wires is certainly true, which again we tried to dispel starting with High Gill which had tensioned 'near scale' 0.25mm dia tinned copper wires on the visible section. This choice originally came about because the Scrap Store at Marconi's New Street works had a number of large reels of this wire for sale at 20p each - for an estimated length of several actual miles!

[garethashenden]

When I was a kid in the 80s my layout had catenary, installed by my Dad. The wires were Somerfelt, as were the single masts, the headspans were scratchbuilt from Plastruct girders and copper wire. The hidden sidings under the higher level had overhead built from rail. The electrification covered the doubletrack roundy-roundy mainline, two loops in the hidden section and and a couple of crossovers between. It worked really well, looked pretty realistic and was great fun, as it was powered so allowed running extra locos in those pre-DCC days. My two 87s and 86 hauled many a mainline passenger train at speed through the station.

Looking it back, it must have been a lot of work, especially for a a full time working father with two children and his own layout to build, so thanks Dad.

I grew up firstly in Hatfield, which was electrified, but only the suburban trains and then Harpenden, which was the same. I think I have only travelled on the WCML less than 10 times (all pre privatisation) so it wasn't a case of modelling what I knew, I just liked the electrics (and still do).

I choose what I want to model by whether I am interested in it, not by what is available. If RTR is available I have no problem using it, but if it isn't, or is old that's not going to stop me, it will just be slower to build. The building is part of modelling so its not really an issue. I don't feel like I have to get a layout finished and start on the next one, although I do like running stuff.

If I was modelling the UK, it would probably involve electrics, the WCML during electrification with both electrics and 50s has its attractions. As it is Andy (298)'s interurbans appeal (although at an earlier period, there was a huge amount of electrified lines in the US back in the day) or possibly the Hoosac Tunnel.

I think its the interface between electrified and non-electrified lines is the most interesting.

There is an certain irony that more mainline US electric locos are available RTR (in brass form, mainly secondhand obviously) than UK ones.

That is fantastic footage. I've been contemplating an East Portal layout, may have to do it now.