The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[Mr_Tilt]

I stand corrected there was the 381 series train in 1973 that tilted ,my apologies to our American friends

1973?

 

That was at least two years too late. We had POP-Train tilting under power in July-August 1971, and FIAT weren't that far behind. E-Train was tilting by 1972 as well. 

[Jitmen]

Thanks for clearing that up Kit

[jonklein611]

They might have been a bit confused on the program...

 

The first tilting train in regular public service was the 381 series electric multiple unit train operated by Japanese National Railways (JNR), which entered revenue service on 10 July 1973 on the Shinano limited express between Nagoya and Nagano on the Chūō Main Line.

 

Not first invented, but first to be in service.

[Mr_Tilt]

They might have been a bit confused on the program...

 

The first tilting train in regular public service was the 381 series electric multiple unit train operated by Japanese National Railways (JNR), which entered revenue service on 10 July 1973 on the Shinano limited express between Nagoya and Nagano on the Chūō Main Line.

 

Not first invented, but first to be in service.

 

But the 381, and its experimental predecessor the 591, used a PASSIVE tilt system, similar in principle to the UAC Turbo-Train, (also modelled by Rapido  ) not an active one, as used on both APTs and the Pendelinos.

 

There's all the difference in the world between a passive system and an active one, the tilt rate can't be anywhere near as fast, limiting the train's use to slower services and less cant deficient curves, and the geometry of the vehicle is totally different. The amount of engineering required is vastly more with an active system than a passive system too.

 

The first active tilting train that went into public service was the FIAT ETR 401 that ran between Rome and Ancona in the summer of 1976, ironically about the same time as we were taking the APT-E up to the NRM. 

[stadman]

They also showed their new invention, a Maglev train.

Don't know who was first but was certainly around in the UK into 1970's (?). Birmingham Int'l to Airport

[jonklein611]

But the 381, and its experimental predecessor the 591, used a PASSIVE tilt system, similar in principle to the UAC Turbo-Train, (also modelled by Rapido  ) not an active one, as used on both APTs and the Pendelinos.

 

There's all the difference in the world between a passive system and an active one, the tilt rate can't be anywhere near as fast, limiting the train's use to slower services and less cant deficient curves, and the geometry of the vehicle is totally different. The amount of engineering required is vastly more with an active system than a passive system too.

 

The first active tilting train that went into public service was the FIAT ETR 401 that ran between Rome and Ancona in the summer of 1976, ironically about the same time as we were taking the APT-E up to the NRM. 

 

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!

 

I understand the significance in the difference between the two, but I doubt a TV show would go into that detail, hence the info presented.  Also, this way there's two firsts, one for Japan and one for Italy!

[Mr_Tilt]

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct!

 

I understand the significance in the difference between the two, but I doubt a TV show would go into that detail, hence the info presented.  Also, this way there's two firsts, one for Japan and one for Italy!

 

Actually the JNR 381 wasn't even the first passive tilting train in scheduled service as the UAC TurboTrains went into service in Canada and the USA in 1968. 

 

And the first powered active tilting train was POP-Train, although that was anything BUT passenger carrying! 

 

In my own experience TV companies tend to generate an internal point of view on a particular subject and stick to it through thick and thin, no matter how many times they're told they're wrong. In my own experience with the BBC's 'One Show' I must have told the presenter three or four times that BR did NOT sell their tilt system technology to FIAT, but the Beeb didn't show my comments on the matter and still maintained that fiction at the end of the programme.

 

I sent them a VERY rude email!!! 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Mr_Tilt

[Mr_Tilt]

They also showed their new invention, a Maglev train.

Don't know who was first but was certainly around in the UK into 1970's (?). Birmingham Int'l to Airport

 

BR developed the MagLev system at the RTC in the mid 70s, and the Birmingham Airport Transit system was developed directly from it. But that was a strictly low speed and low capacity system, whereas the JNR MagLev is the exact opposite, being VERY high speed and  is intended to carry main line passenger numbers.

 

The RTC MagLev car still exists, together with it's VAST concrete set of points, but I'm not sure where it is these days. It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently.

[Guest]

It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently.

 

Well if it's no longer at Wroughton there's a chance of actually being able to see it.

[loickebros]

 

 

The RTC MagLev car still exists, together with it's VAST concrete set of points, but I'm not sure where it is these days. It used to be at the Science Museum outstation at Wroughton nr Swindon, but it's been moved apparently.

I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure it is on the Nene valley railway at Peterborough.

Dave

[47137]

I stand to be corrected but I am pretty sure it is on the Nene valley railway at Peterborough.

Dave

The Maglev train is at 'Railworld' in Peterborough, right next to the Nene Valley station in the town: http://www.railworld.net/rtv31.php

 

It's on a short length of the concrete track.

 

Railworld were closed for a big refurbishment when we visited a while back - the opening times are shown on their web site but I suggest phoning before making a trip to make sure they are open. We went many years ago, as a museum it is a bit "different" and we enjoyed it.

 

- Richard.

[Mr_Tilt]

We may be at cross-purposes here.

 

The RTV31 vehicle isn't what I was talking about earlier, it's the singular Tracked Hovercraft test vehicle developed in a similar time period to the APT. The RTV31 used hovercraft technology to lift it clear of its track and Linear Induction Motors to move it along, whereas Maglev vehicles use magnetic levitation (the clue is in the title....) to lift them clear of the track and LIMs to move them along. Eric Laithwaite, the moving force behind the Tracked Hovercraft, later developed a dual purpose magnet that would both lift and propel a Maglev vehicle. 

 

While the BR Maglev used LIMs as well its maximum speed was only about 30-40 mph, whereas the RTV31 was intended to run at 250 mph. In fact it only managed just over 100 mph but that was on its very short test track.

 

 

Here's the BR Maglev in the Vehicles Lab at Derby.

 

 

 

And here it is on its test track in the RTC Yard. That's Cathy Froud, a friend of mine in there, looking somewhat apprehensively as it approaches the end of the track.   

Edited April 6, 2017 by Mr_Tilt

[Wolf27]

A year ago today this happened!

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

[Shovelto]

We may be at cross-purposes here.

 

The RTV31 vehicle isn't what I was talking about earlier, it's the singular Tracked Hovercraft test vehicle developed in a similar time period to the APT. The RTV31 used hovercraft technology to lift it clear of its track and Linear Induction Motors to move it along, whereas Maglev vehicles use magnetic levitation (the clue is in the title....) to lift them clear of the track and LIMs to move them along. Eric Laithwaite, the moving force behind the Tracked Hovercraft, later developed a dual purpose magnet that would both lift and propel a Maglev vehicle. 

 

While the BR Maglev used LIMs as well its maximum speed was only about 30-40 mph, whereas the RTV31 was intended to run at 250 mph. In fact it only managed just over 100 mph but that was on its very short test track.

 

 

Here's the BR Maglev in the Vehicles Lab at Derby.

 

 

 

And here it is on its test track in the RTC Yard. That's Cathy Froud, a friend of mine in there, looking somewhat apprehensively as it approaches the end of the track.   

Having a ride on Maglev twixt station and airport was a favourite pastime for our daughter when she visited grandparents who lived in Solihull. It also had the benefit of being free to ride!

[The Ghost of IKB]

What all these vehicles (apt, maglev, RTV) all show is the wonderful experimental attitude present in the late 60s and 1970s. Looking back it does seem like a brave new world, with engineers thinking big (some possibly crazy) ideas. What do we get now, class 800 and cancelled electrification projects.

[stadman]

What all these vehicles (apt, maglev, RTV) all show is the wonderful experimental attitude present in the late 60s and 1970s. Looking back it does seem like a brave new world, with engineers thinking big (some possibly crazy) ideas. What do we get now, class 800 and cancelled electrification projects.

 

Ah well at least we had supersonic passenger flight, no one has claimed to reinvent that.

[Ian Smeeton]

Didn't the Russians have Concordski?

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Mr_Tilt]

Didn't the Russians have Concordski?

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

Yes, but it wasn't too successful, certainly nowhere near as good as the production Concordes. 

[Ian J.]

Ah well at least we had supersonic passenger flight, no one has claimed to reinvent that.

 

Branston Pickle's looking at having another go with the XB-1: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/boom-supersonic-passenger-jet-virgin-richard-branson-london-new-york-concorde-a7420466.html

[Ian J.]

On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit?

[ColinK]

On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit?

I think you need to contact Charlie at DC Kits

[Mr_Tilt]

Branston Pickle's looking at having another go with the XB-1: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/boom-supersonic-passenger-jet-virgin-richard-branson-london-new-york-concorde-a7420466.html

 

 

 

 "Concorde's designers didn't have the technology for affordable supersonic travel, but now we do,”

 

A tad arrogant perhaps?

 

The only thing that stopped the Concordes making money was the scared US and other potential customers who wouldn't put their money down, so there were no economies of scale for BAE etc.

[jjb1970]

I think the poor economics of Concorde were more as a result of very high fuel consumption and operating costs and its introduction almost coinciding with the oil shock of the early 70's and the paradigm shift in airline operations and economics resulting from the introduction of widebody airliners.

[reevesthecat]

On a different note, and back on topic, kind of, can anyone tell me if it's possible (still) to get a sound chip, etc, for the APT-E? And if so, is it a straightforward thing to fit?

Hi

I have just had my APT-E sound fitted ,It had an issue with the lights and while away I asked Simon at S H modelmaking to fit it with sound which he did. Very pleased with the results. Charlie at DC kits provided me with the email address.

Mark

[Stevelewis]

Didn't the Russians have Concordski?

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

The  Russians  did indeed  delvelop a SST  similar  in  shape  to  Concorde  but  with 2  small   winglets   at  the  front  end  ,  unfortunately  one  crashed  whilst  displaying  at  the Paris   airshow,   It  went  into  service 2 years  after  Concorde  in '77  but only  did 55  flights  as  another  one  crashed  so there  were no further passenger  flights but  I seem to remember that they  were  used  within the  USSR   for  a  while  carrying  freight.

Some were sold to  NASA  America  where   I think they were  used as  test  beds  for  future  development  of  SSTs    Its  worth  Googling  if  you  are interested.

 

Known  as  the  Tupulev  TU 144  a  total  of  16  were  built  There  is lots  of  info on Wikipedia  and  films  on  You Tube

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As  a  Concorde  flyer  I  was  very  disappointed when Concorde   was   grounded,,

Edited April 8, 2017 by Stevelewis