RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 I have one of those handrail bending jigs, I usually make a mark with a permanent marker on the one I need, problem is after a few jobs I can't remember which mark I should be following... always remember to rub them off... I'm just glad that I remembered I had one and then could find it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold mudmagnet Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 Great progress Chris! Shame I didn't get chance to see the loco for myself last weekend! Thanks for the cake by the way! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 Sandbox fillers removed from the cab rear... And the section soldered into the cab. Usefully the running board / cab floor has slots for tabs on the cab base to locate in. Not very usefully the slots and tabs don't align! As built the cab is marginally narrower than the line of slots. Have I built it wrong? Well the cab is the same width as the tank assembly. The widths have been set by two tank formers, the cab front and cab rear - all are the same width. Turning now to the bunker rear, I've now found that this is wider and matches the width the cab would be if it Sat in the alignment slots. Confused? Me too. I'm now guessing that the top of the bunker rear, which is part of the main cab etch, will somehow be wrong too... Cue the Eastenders drum roll. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 Very useful detail, thanks Mike. Looks like yet more of the cab interior Instructions / parts of this kit are complete tosh. There's confirmation that the floor is only raised in parts for starters. You'll realise just how bad they are when the CD arrives. Note also the shovelling strip on the Driver' side - but I don't know if that is original or preservation although I reckon it is probably original as it's the only sensibe way you could shovel coal into the firebox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 Sandbox fillers removed from the cab rear... rps20140921_203249.jpg And the section soldered into the cab. rps20140921_203328.jpg Usefully the running board / cab floor has slots for tabs on the cab base to locate in. Not very usefully the slots and tabs don't align! As built the cab is marginally narrower than the line of slots. Have I built it wrong? Well the cab is the same width as the tank assembly. The widths have been set by two tank formers, the cab front and cab rear - all are the same width. Turning now to the bunker rear, I've now found that this is wider and matches the width the cab would be if it Sat in the alignment slots. Confused? Me too. I'm now guessing that the top of the bunker rear, which is part of the main cab etch, will somehow be wrong too... Cue the Eastenders drum roll. I ought really not to tell you this but the cab back sheet as supplied is not entirely correct. The inset into the bunker for turning the handbrake handle is not there! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 I ought really not to tell you this but the cab back sheet as supplied is not entirely correct. The inset into the bunker for turning the handbrake handle is not there! DSCF8028.jpg I may actually cry! Out with the saw... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 I may actually cry! Out with the saw... Chris.If you were marking this kit out of ten what would you give it.You seem to be having to do a lot of rectifying on the kit so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 Well, as feared, all is not well in the cab rear department. I've reformed the rear bunker curves to match the position and radius of the etched piece that sits on top of the bunker. I checked first against a drawing that this extended backwards from the cab the right amount. The photo shows that this means that the upper parts of the bunker rear now overlap. It also shows that the etched rim price is too wide. Not only is it wider than the cab as built but also wider than the, already too wide, lower bunker rear etch. Out with the files and snips... Chris.If you were marking this kit out of ten what would you give it.You seem to be having to do a lot of rectifying on the kit so far.6 Edit 20/08/2016.... discoveries later in the build revealed that the U shaped etched bead to the top of the bunker coal space was probably the correct size. It was the cab front and rear sheets, plus the tank front and rear formers that are actually all too narrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 Out with the cutters. The top rim / beading was cut off centre to provide an overlap. The bigger section was soldered on to the bunker top first. I then dug out a set of gaugy measury thingies and set them to the width of the cab. The bunker sides were then pressed hard into the gauge and the overlap of the bunker rear marked (about 3mm). Snip and file. This was then tacked to the first bit of the rim / beading. The second bit of the rim / beading was offered up and the overlap marked. Snip, file and solder. Confused? Well the outcome looks like this: Well that's enough excitement for tonight, I'm going to leave the rest of the bunker rear until later in the week. Probably best to leave it off if I'm cutting chunks out of the cab rear! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 Is it too late to cut a hole in the rear cab sheet for this? The semicircular cover can be made from a piece of tubing the correct diameter, cut in half and then the two top and bottom pieces from a piece of scrap sheet. A real pain, but it is noticeable when looking in the bunker. I had a similar problem with my 14xx, which was a brass rtr job. Ended up cutting a piece of brass rod into a semicircular section and gluing if on!! The subterfuge is not noticeable in that there is no space for the brake handle to rotate through. It's never too late Paul! I want this model to be as right as my skills and tools allow. I'll wait until Mike's CD of photos arrives before doing any more to the cab area - just in case there's anymore (highly likely) surprises! I need to lay down now in a darkened room... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 21, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2014 Chris.If you were marking this kit out of ten what would you give it.You seem to be having to do a lot of rectifying on the kit so far. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 I am finding it difficult to rate some posts I like the way you are doing things but don't like the fact that you need to. Are you begining to think ignorance is bliss? Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 5 That high.......? There are much more "demanding" kits out there. ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 21, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2014 Believe it or not the drawing in Post No 592 is fairly accurate to what I photographed today on 1369 and what is now on the CD. The problem with the drawing is that it is, obviously, one dimensional and it is therefore difficult to separate the 'layers' as they are on the real engine but hopefully the photos will put most of them in their right context. My only question mark is about the height above floor level of the valves for the water feed on the injectors but as I rather fortuitously took a picture of the right hand injector which shows the rod between the handle and the water valve itself that should make it fairly easy to relate one to the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 I am finding it difficult to rate some posts I like the way you are doing things but don't like the fact that you need to. Are you begining to think ignorance is bliss? Don Thanks Don. Yes ignorance would be bliss but the parts would still not fit and the cab interior diagram would still be indecipherable. Mind you, the backplate would have been completed incorrectly had I been able to decipher the confusing and blurred photo - I'd never have looked for information had I understood it. The kit is however providing much entertainment and many skill building opportunities.... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 There are much more "demanding" kits out there. ;-) You are completely correct Kev, but this one is a very recent kit from a manufacturer with a good reputation. Just to recap the issues so far have been: - parts missing but subsequently provided - poor design of compensation beams - motion brackets set too high and at the wrong angle - smokebox lower wrappers that are too short - cylinder wrappers that are not wide enough and too short - poor quality, misshaped castings for the chimney, dome etc - tanks provided pre formed to the wrong shape - tanks with half etch lines in the wrong location - instructions telling you to form 100s of rivets in the tank when the prototype has none - smokebox front that's too tall - boiler underside that finishes too high - tank, boiler & smokebox assembly set too high up the cab - cab interior parts and instructions being a figment of imagination - cab bunker part widths not matching each other or the rest of the kit Should a kit if this age and parentage have this many issues? I'd have expected it from an older generation kit but I think there's less excuse not to get at least all the major parts the correct size. I do keep wandering if I've built something wrong but I can't see other ways the parts would fit together and give different results. When I've finished I will be sending my observations to Agenoria - I wonder if they get feedback? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Chris I built my 1366 from a CRT kit many moons ago. At that time, my late pal, Ken Stansfield, had just started a finescale O gauge webpage/blog/forum (see thread about "Future of O gauge... ", Ken was ahead of his time!) and I wrote a build report about the kit. He decided that it was unlikely to improve his advertising sales if my somewhat acerbic report was published, so I toned it down a bit. It was, I think, without doubt the worst kit I had built, which given that the other things available under the POWsides brand are pretty much in the "very acceptable to good" category, was a bit of a surprise. Without too many gory details, I turned new boiler fittings (dome, chimney, SV cover), completely redesigned the cylinders and motion bracket, not because they didn't look nice, but because the wheels wouldn't fit between the slide bars, and made a new smokebox front, and the rest of the smokebox and firebox below the panniers. The tanks needed some attention too, as the hole inside wasn't well aligned with the shape outside and they were a bit thin on one corner. And the bunker corners... The cab floor details were wrong too, but let's not go there. At least it had the half-drum for the handbrake handle to turn. I was assured that the faults in the kit were as the range had been bought from a third party, (maybe scaled up from OO) and that they were (eventually) addressed, but obviously I didn't buy another one (tho' I do have a 1361 from the same stable to build, watch this space...) So - it appears that kit design hasn't moved on much, at least in some quarters, which is a real shame - as Mike has shown, it is possible to go and get photos of the real thing and, at a simpler level, there are lots of photos of almost anything we might need, plus reams of information on the internet, thus it is hugely easier to get it right. I think your loco is going to be excellent - a combination of your skills and determination to make it, coupled with the contributions of many on here - I'm very glad I joined the RMWeb community, as I have learned a huge amount, and I hope that is a general experience. Stick with it, there's only the bunker to go for you to have finished the platework, and after that, it's a doddle... Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 Believe it or not the drawing in Post No 592 is fairly accurate to what I photographed today on 1369 and what is now on the CD. The problem with the drawing is that it is, obviously, one dimensional and it is therefore difficult to separate the 'layers' as they are on the real engine but hopefully the photos will put most of them in their right context. My only question mark is about the height above floor level of the valves for the water feed on the injectors but as I rather fortuitously took a picture of the right hand injector which shows the rod between the handle and the water valve itself that should make it fairly easy to relate one to the other. I'm holding fire Mike until your CD arrives. I think the backhead will be started again and the parts removed from the cab floor. Lots of cutting and reshaping to do by the looks of it. Also a big thank you from me for taking the time to visit the loco this last weekend and take lots of photos for me. Very much appreciated. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 Chris I built my 1366 from a CRT kit many moons ago. At that time, my late pal, Ken Stansfield, had just started a finescale O gauge webpage/blog/forum (see thread about "Future of O gauge... ", Ken was ahead of his time!) and I wrote a build report about the kit. He decided that it was unlikely to improve his advertising sales if my somewhat acerbic report was published, so I toned it down a bit. It was, I think, without doubt the worst kit I had built, which given that the other things available under the POWsides brand are pretty much in the "very acceptable to good" category, was a bit of a surprise. Without too many gory details, I turned new boiler fittings (dome, chimney, SV cover), completely redesigned the cylinders and motion bracket, not because they didn't look nice, but because the wheels wouldn't fit between the slide bars, and made a new smokebox front, and the rest of the smokebox and firebox below the panniers. The tanks needed some attention too, as the hole inside wasn't well aligned with the shape outside and they were a bit thin on one corner. And the bunker corners... The cab floor details were wrong too, but let's not go there. At least it had the half-drum for the handbrake handle to turn. I was assured that the faults in the kit were as the range had been bought from a third party, (maybe scaled up from OO) and that they were (eventually) addressed, but obviously I didn't buy another one (tho' I do have a 1361 from the same stable to build, watch this space...) So - it appears that kit design hasn't moved on much, at least in some quarters, which is a real shame - as Mike has shown, it is possible to go and get photos of the real thing and, at a simpler level, there are lots of photos of almost anything we might need, plus reams of information on the internet, thus it is hugely easier to get it right. I think your loco is going to be excellent - a combination of your skills and determination to make it, coupled with the contributions of many on here - I'm very glad I joined the RMWeb community, as I have learned a huge amount, and I hope that is a general experience. Stick with it, there's only the bunker to go for you to have finished the platework, and after that, it's a doddle... Simon The CRT kit was the other option I looked at but I didn't like the wobbly shape of the resin tank and the build reports from other people were not very complementary. I still think I made the right kit choice and I was expecting to challenge my skills, but did expect parts to fit. Stupid boy! The real plus is all the help and information I've received from folk on here - it's almost a community build. Robin, of A Nod to Brent fame, thinks I'm very brave doing my first kit build in full public gaze with mistakes to be viewed by all but, as I say to him, I would probably have given up by now without the encouragement received. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Chris It will be interesting to see what Agenoria have to say - I imagine that given the details of your build on here, they will withdraw the kit and remaster it. Or sell the remaining stock off cheap. If you wanted to buy a kit of this loco, and you had Googled "1366 pannier tank 0 gauge" you would probably find, and read, this thread, along with the adverts for Agenoria and CRT. Having read it, would you subsequently consider buying one, unless you were a masochist? In addition to my previous thoughts, and again relevant to the "future of 0 gauge" thread, this kind of detailed analysis of a model will either "improve the breed" or consign low quality kits to the remainder heap. My fear is that, given the difficulties faced by small traders, it may actually tend to reduce the range of kits available to the modeller. If so, that would be a shame. And, no, I do not believe that your build is "somehow wrong". Following with interest... Simon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 Chris It will be interesting to see what Agenoria have to say - I imagine that given the details of your build on here, they will withdraw the kit and remaster it. Or sell the remaining stock off cheap. If you wanted to buy a kit of this loco, and you had Googled "1366 pannier tank 0 gauge" you would probably find, and read, this thread, along with the adverts for Agenoria and CRT. Having read it, would you subsequently consider buying one, unless you were a masochist? In addition to my previous thoughts, and again relevant to the "future of 0 gauge" thread, this kind of detailed analysis of a model will either "improve the breed" or consign low quality kits to the remainder heap. My fear is that, given the difficulties faced by small traders, it may actually tend to reduce the range of kits available to the modeller. If so, that would be a shame. And, no, I do not believe that your build is "somehow wrong". Following with interest... Simon The only thing I don't understand is that there's a fully built example on the Agenoria stand. Surely some of the issues I'm having cropped up during that build? Looking at the destructions for the O2 it's obvious the test build resulted in a few comments and changes. I'm hoping the next one will be better! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted September 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2014 You are brave but as well as encouragement some like Mike (SM) are offereing some real help. I don't think I know the owner of Agenoria but if he were to look into this thread with an open mind he might learn something. All too often manufacturers do not respond well to criticism. I can understand if you have spent a lot of time preparing artwork, to find that it is not correct is not going to fill you with joy. If it were me I would want to know if the problems had been poor sources of information or my interpretation. The other thing is this thread shows the advantages of this forum, real time following of a build allowing others to comment problems to be aired etc. This would not be feasible in a magazine the only other way would be to have us all camped in your train room. I for one am grateful for the time and trouble you have taken to maintain this thread. It is going to be harder to say that will do when building anything. I shall be thinking of your efforts to get it right. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 22, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'm holding fire Mike until your CD arrives. I think the backhead will be started again and the parts removed from the cab floor. Lots of cutting and reshaping to do by the looks of it. Also a big thank you from me for taking the time to visit the loco this last weekend and take lots of photos for me. Very much appreciated. I think you are indeed best advised to wait the CD although if you do have a chance meantime then what you suggest would be a good starting point for both the floor and the backhead. At least the pics should give you a chance to see most of what goes where - not just on the backhead but on the cab front and side sheets (not so good for the backsheet I'm afraid as it was difficult to get the angles with outside access from only one side). Fortunately - should you decide to tackle all of it - most of the pipework routes can be followed and generally agree with the drawing. I'm still trying to puzzle out what on earth the backhead photo from the instructions represented not only a murky illustration (maybe fortunately as things have turned out?) but some very non GWR features as well, weird. The only thing I don't understand is that there's a fully built example on the Agenoria stand. Surely some of the issues I'm having cropped up during that build? I must admit to being misled by the example on the Agenoria stand at the Stafford show as it looked pretty good to me although I couldn't see it from every angle, especially the back of the bunker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted September 22, 2014 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2014 I think the kit will eventually build into a fine model but the route to getting there could be less frustrating! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Decided to Google 1366 pannier tank, and found this little gem http://www.ooobopshibam.webspace.virginmedia.com/railways/docktank.htm Feel better now? Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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