Bachmann announce 0-6-2T L&NWR Webb Coal Tank

[Jol Wilkinson]

This is, I think, the first LNWR RTR loco in living memory. (The Bachmann G2 with Belpaire doesn't count). The crying demand is now for a brake van and vans to go with it. PO wagons are easy and even opens are easy to do.

 

I waited to post this until I had been comfortably outbid on EBay for a Gem 6 wheel brake. £43 plus post and repairs. Mouse do diag 32 vans at about £23 a shot and LRM do 10 ton brakes for about £18 and a days work assembling.

 

There is a market....

 

 

The only LNWR coaches to display run are the Ratio kits. unless turning to brass kits at far higher prices. Not looking for a dead prototype rake, and I might put Ratio GWR 4 wheelers in LNWR livery behind it.

Stephen

For those who really want to model the LNWR and for who spending the same on several coaches and wagons as a loco doesn't present a problem, there is a lot available for the "model maker".

 

Wizard/51L, Stevenson Carriages, David Geen, London Road Models, Ratio and others make coach  kits. Mousa Models, David Geen, LRM, Ratio and others make wagon, van and brake van kits., There are signal boxes, signals, station buildings components, etc. from a variety of sources.

 

However, if your modelling is limited to RTR and RTP items, then you are - with the exception of the Bachmann Coal Tank and their inaccurate signal box, very much in a wilderness.

[coachmann]

I doubt the buyers of the Coal Tank on this RTR forum are historical modellers. They buy something that looks pretty and then look around for something simple (plastic) to put behind their acquisition.  

 

If i were a advisor to Bachmann, I would have suggested they produce two LNWR 6-wheel coaches (a brake 3rd and all-3rd) to complement their Coal Tank. Such coaches would be a good investment over a long period, as I can imagine quite a bit of cutting & shutting by the more imaginative modellers to produce bogie coaches etc. One only has to look at the ancient Hornby clerestory's still being chopped about by up and coming modellers.

Edited April 21, 2017 by coachmann

[bertiedog]

A bit more than something pretty, thank you. a reasonable LNWR coach kit from Ratio, or PO stock are done, without resorting to spending large amounts of money and time on the kits. Most of the locos I have are varied, no one company but are run with correct stock to suit. As offered the loco in plain livery also matches preserved livery. Unless building to Pendon standards, very rarely do people attempt strict historical accuracy, but does it matter if it is off a bit, due to practical limitations.

 

I certainly do not comment on some posters ideas of accuracy, or their standards of modelling, modellers are their own masters and can do as they wish, or that they can achieve.

 

The main 16.5 line I have has no identity very deliberately, it can run HO US stock as well as Victorian steam. Parts are built to greater accuracy for a particular company, or separate but interconnected layouts are built to far more exacting standards, along with a small P4 layout, which is basically LMS.

 

I can understand people who take the hobby further and deeply specialise, but it certainly takes some of the fun out of models to restrict yourself so much, unless it is taken as an end in itself, specialising on say precision buildings standards, or very precise engineering.

 

The Coal Tank on passenger usage would far more likely run with 4 wheelers or 6 wheelers, and on cost grounds, modified Ratio GWR would do just fine, new lamp vents, LNWR livery.

 

Later If more LNWR comes out then I would buy in brass kits for some variety, but no exact operational stock, no need really, just a decent representation of a LNWR train.

 

Stephen

[Penlan]

I doubt the buyers of the Coal Tank on this RTR forum are historical modellers. They buy something that looks pretty and then look around for something simple (plastic) to put behind their acquisition.

Accepting I'm not a buyer, because I already have enough CT's, but the quality of this RTR model is such,

that if I needed more CT's I would buy this model and convert to EM.  

Not sure if I'm classified (though probably should be certified) as a historical modeller, but I model circa 1910.

The bodies only may be available one day, then put a LRM chassis kit underneath and 'Proper Job', as we say way down west, even perhaps replace one or two of the K's bodies too - They are already on scratch or LRM's chassis'. 

[PaulRhB]

I doubt the buyers of the Coal Tank on this RTR forum are historical modellers. They buy something that looks pretty and then look around for something simple (plastic) to put behind their acquisition.

 

Interesting choice of words which is a bit general. I've modelled stuff from this period but not LNWR and bought this simply because I've always liked it. If more rtr LNWR came out then yes I might make a small layout but I've discounted the LR kits in the past simply because I have too many other kits to build for existing projects

While I like them all I don't have time to build them too so I'll happily buy rtr to indulge another Historic interest. If money was no object I'd have kit builders like you busy on most of the London Road range while I concentrated on the scratch building in 7/8ths and other etch O16.5NG kits in the pile

It's a bit easy to assume everyone buying it only buys rtr

Edited April 21, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Jol Wilkinson]

Paul,

 

I largely agree with Coach's point of view although there probably are some exceptions to the rule. 

 

As a long time modeller of the LNWR, member and former Promotions Officer/Trustee of the LNWR Society and part time assistant to one of the leading LNWR kit suppliers, the outbreak of pent up demand for the Bachmann Coal Tank comes as something of a shock. Either there are a lot of closet LNWR modellers out there or, as I suspect and I think Coach was alluding to, all this sudden interest in an unusual and attractive model is simply for it's own sake and nothing more. I am sure that many who have bought the Coal Tank are eagerly looking forward to Rapido's Stirling Single or any other "unusual" model that comes along.

 

What this thread does do, for me at least, is further highlight the different approach between those that choose to model a particular era, location or railway company and those whose modelling is solely driven by what the RTR manufacturers choose to make. Unless you are willing to have a go at doing some kit building, then buying the Bachmann Coal Tank in LNWR condition means you have a solitary loco to run on your layout, without any matching stock. The easiest answer - but I suspect too far for some - would be to build a LRM or Mousa Brake van and then run some RTR POW wagons with it. The Ratio carriage kits are the cheapest LNWR carriage kits on the market, but how many people are willing to have a go at the carriage LNWR livery if they baulk at the idea of adding some Fox transfers to the Coal Tank to create a lined version and would rather hope/wait for Bachmann to do it?

 

Jol

[PaulRhB]

Jol, I agree a lot will hence I used the smiley to reply to Larry as he is probably 90% right, just adding a bit of balance.

I too like the unusual and have bought several locos that don't fit what I model but I do tend to get appropriate stock too. As to the lining I could but matching the Bachmann print quality will show up my skills not being quite as good means I hope they'll save me the decision and do it

I have bought a couple of the Ratio coaches to tackle the paint scheme as I doubt there will be anything anytime soon rtr so I'd rather make and paint them and let Bachmann do a slightly better job on the loco. I do have three sets of plates now

I've been a closet LNWR enthusiast since seeing a layout in RM many years ago, Millport Victoria? and seeing Hardwicke and the Coal Tank in the 80's.

So I won't be dedicated to modelling the LNWR but if more rtr does follow I'll certainly be buying it and at least one more Coal Tank lined or not

[johnd]

Talk about pent up LNWR modelers! The model released so far Is in the preserved condition and you can see the real loco if your prepared to travel. Most remember it in this condition and possible pulling a few mk1s. Let's see if the other version sells as well.
It will be interesting to see which version of the Johnson 1P sells when it arrives ! I suspect the one that ran on the Somerset and Dorset even thought it was withdrawn in the mid 1950's.

Edited April 22, 2017 by johnd

[Compound2632]

Prompted by this discussion, here are a couple of photos of Aston shed's Coal Tank No. 1054 at work on a foggy day after a light snowfall. Firstly, working a down goods for Sutton Coldfield - the leading coal wagons will be dropped off at the solitary coal siding at Chester Road on the return journey:

 

 

(OK, I acknowledge that 1054 is in late LNWR plain black whereas my wagons are intended for the early Edwardian period - though I believe wagons with diamonds only were around for a good long while after the introduction of the large LNWR lettering in 1908.) 

 

These engines had weak brakes and were much safer working vacuum-braked stock, so here's a possibly more typical empty carriage stock working, later the same day somewhere near a fog-bound New Street station:

 

 

(I've not added the vac pipes yet! I note a PVA based glue is recommended - can anyone suggest what Bachmann have in mind here? Also, the instructions mention fitting the vacuum reservoir but the add-on pack doesn't contain one.)

 

All stock is Ratio except the Mousa D32 van - the loco coal wagon is long out of production but the 10 ton coal wagon is still available together with the very common D4/D9 4-plank wagon. The 8 ton coal wagon is my own bash from the 10 ton wagon.

 

I built, painted and lined the carriages in my late teens - I have some more which I'm slowly trying to paint to the same standard!

 

[PaulRhB]

(I've not added the vac pipes yet! I note a PVA based glue is recommended - can anyone suggest what Bachmann have in mind here? Also, the instructions mention fitting the vacuum reservoir but the add-on pack doesn't contain one.)

 

Pva will hold them in but not permanently bond so you can easily replace them if they get damaged without having to drill the bufferbeams

 

I hope my coaches turn out that well

[The Stationmaster]

Paul,

 

I largely agree with Coach's point of view although there probably are some exceptions to the rule. 

 

As a long time modeller of the LNWR, member and former Promotions Officer/Trustee of the LNWR Society and part time assistant to one of the leading LNWR kit suppliers, the outbreak of pent up demand for the Bachmann Coal Tank comes as something of a shock. Either there are a lot of closet LNWR modellers out there or, as I suspect and I think Coach was alluding to, all this sudden interest in an unusual and attractive model is simply for it's own sake and nothing more. I am sure that many who have bought the Coal Tank are eagerly looking forward to Rapido's Stirling Single or any other "unusual" model that comes along.

 

What this thread does do, for me at least, is further highlight the different approach between those that choose to model a particular era, location or railway company and those whose modelling is solely driven by what the RTR manufacturers choose to make. Unless you are willing to have a go at doing some kit building, then buying the Bachmann Coal Tank in LNWR condition means you have a solitary loco to run on your layout, without any matching stock. The easiest answer - but I suspect too far for some - would be to build a LRM or Mousa Brake van and then run some RTR POW wagons with it. The Ratio carriage kits are the cheapest LNWR carriage kits on the market, but how many people are willing to have a go at the carriage LNWR livery if they baulk at the idea of adding some Fox transfers to the Coal Tank to create a lined version and would rather hope/wait for Bachmann to do it?

 

Jol

 

There are I think several factors at work in demand for the Coal Tank although I suspect the primary one is that it is an attractive little Pre-Group engine (I like the look of LNWR engines so to me it is 'attractive') which ca still be seen around.  The former is simply tapping a market, which seems to still exist, for something a bit different while the latter is a big plus point for any model and will encourage folk to buy as they can shove it into modern scenarios - even if not entirely accurate.  I'm fairly sure that a Precedent in the shape of 'Hardwicke' would sell as well as, if not better than, the Coal Tank for the same sort of reasons.

 

My interest however is slightly different because with a slight elasticity of my time frame it is an absolutely 'right' engine for certain parts of South Wales especially those where the LNWR and GWR had very closely rubbed shoulders and in that respect it very nicely complements the 0-8-0 where the same reasoning fits.  Thus apart from those modelling the LNWR and various parts of the LMS it also has a very slightly off-piste attraction for others of us.  and of course in my case I don't have to worry about complex LNWR coaching stock livery.

[Compound2632]

Well, I think I must be running against the general trend - as someone who has a pile of kit-built pre-group rolling stock I'm very happy when a suitable RTR engine comes along! 

[Ian Hargrave]

And then there are those of us who will wait until the LMS and BR ( M ) versions are released simply because they are familiar to us as what we still remember.As a Valleys boy in the 40's and 50's along with the G2 's they were the cuckoos in the nest working out of Abergavenny and Tredegar alongside shoals of GW or ex TV locos....a curiosity soon to disappear in 1958 I think with the closure of the lines from Dowlais Top and Tredegar to Abergavenny....well it had been a kind of ghost line for years hanging on to the bitter end.Abercynon shed had 58926 parked outside for a while but I never saw it in steam.Attractive as the LNWR version undoubtedly is,I can find no use for it.

[No Decorum]

Also, the instructions mention fitting the vacuum reservoir but the add-on pack doesn't contain one.

The instructions say, “Only included with relavant [sic] models.”

 

I love the trains but especially the scenery!

[coachmann]

BR version around 4th May.............. I'm allowed one during the funny hour! 

[Compound2632]

I love the trains but especially the scenery!

 

Sorry, yes, a weak point at the moment... Flip chart paper works better for "officials" where we can suppose the photographer has blanked out the background!

[Norton961]

The elephant in the room regarding modelling the LNWR is painting coaches in full LNWR livery. As someone who once modelled LNWR and painted some coaches to a good standard I gave up as the amount of time it took to fully paint and line an LNWR coach exceeded the amount of time it took me to build a LNWR loco in P4. My problem was I wanted a large number of coaches so I reluctantly decided to switch my modelling to an ex LNWR line but in BR days (Trench Sidings). My time frame for my layout allows me to run one of the last BR Coal Tanks (58904) which was at Shrewsbury so I have a Bachmann one on order.

Therefore if we want to see some serious LNWR layouts we need some RTR coaches in LNWR livery and Coachman is correct in picking a 6 wheeler as these can be also liveried in LMS and many lasted to early BR and then some lasted until the early 1960s in departmental stock. If we want Bachmann to produce some LNWR coaches (at a price no doubt) then we need to offer them some alternative liveries.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The elephant in the room regarding modelling the LNWR is painting coaches in full LNWR livery. As someone who once modelled LNWR and painted some coaches to a good standard I gave up as the amount of time it took to fully paint and line an LNWR coach exceeded the amount of time it took me to build a LNWR loco in P4. My problem was I wanted a large number of coaches so I reluctantly decided to switch my modelling to an ex LNWR line but in BR days (Trench Sidings). My time frame for my layout allows me to run one of the last BR Coal Tanks (58904) which was at Shrewsbury so I have a Bachmann one on order.

Therefore if we want to see some serious LNWR layouts we need some RTR coaches in LNWR livery and Coachman is correct in picking a 6 wheeler as these can be also liveried in LMS and many lasted to early BR and then some lasted until the early 1960s in departmental stock. If we want Bachmann to produce some LNWR coaches (at a price no doubt) then we need to offer them some alternative liveries.

 

There are already some serious LNWR layouts, including Penlan, Roger Stapleton's LNWR Steam Shed, Clarendon, Narrow Road, Geoff William's Aylesbury, Hope under Dinsmore (joint LNWR/GWR) and London Road that have appeared at exhibitions, plus others such as David Pennington's two layouts, Stanmore and Liverpool Lime Street, Nick Eastons's layout that appears in RM and others that we probably don't know about..

 

Painting complex carriage liveries is time consuming, but the results can be very satisfying and rewarding. The LNWR had a large carriage fleet, many of which lasted into LMS days. While a simple LMS livery would be practical, I wonder if the RTR manufacturers could reproduce the fully lined LNWR paint job without resorting to a lot of skilled hand lining and therefore at an acceptable price to the RTR collector. Undoubtedly painting and lining LNWR carriages will put a lot of people off, but if you just need a small rake to go with the one RTR LNWR loco now available, then perhaps it isn't to much to have a go at. No pain, no gain!

 

And the PC pre printed side coach kits still appear on eBay from time to time.

[philip-griffiths]

While not valid for the LNWR version, the LMS used them with 4 wheelers upon South Wales until 1932 - Abergavenny to Merthyr line - and 1935 - Sirhowy valley line. The four wheeled coaches can be built using kits from LRM. While John redrup has never produced the correct underframe for the sirhowy stock, the difference would not jar.

 

From the 30s the LMS replaced the LNWR carriages with vestibule 8-wheel stock. It was varied but I've seen evidence of LMS Period 3 BTK available as rtr. Comet sides would allow you to model the BTO excursion stock as well. So there are choices available.

 

Regards.

[No Decorum]

Sorry, yes, a weak point at the moment... Flip chart paper works better for "officials" where we can suppose the photographer has blanked out the background!

No need to apologise – certainly not when you can show off trains like those. If you ever come up with a cover story for roof trusses in the background, I’d love to see it!

[Budgie]

Did the coal tanks work excursions from the Sirhowy valley to Barry Island?

[1BCamden]

Paul,

 

I largely agree with Coach's point of view although there probably are some exceptions to the rule.

 

As a long time modeller of the LNWR, member and former Promotions Officer/Trustee of the LNWR Society and part time assistant to one of the leading LNWR kit suppliers, the outbreak of pent up demand for the Bachmann Coal Tank comes as something of a shock. Either there are a lot of closet LNWR modellers out there or, as I suspect and I think Coach was alluding to, all this sudden interest in an unusual and attractive model is simply for it's own sake and nothing more. I am sure that many who have bought the Coal Tank are eagerly looking forward to Rapido's Stirling Single or any other "unusual" model that comes along.

 

What this thread does do, for me at least, is further highlight the different approach between those that choose to model a particular era, location or railway company and those whose modelling is solely driven by what the RTR manufacturers choose to make. Unless you are willing to have a go at doing some kit building, then buying the Bachmann Coal Tank in LNWR condition means you have a solitary loco to run on your layout, without any matching stock. The easiest answer - but I suspect too far for some - would be to build a LRM or Mousa Brake van and then run some RTR POW wagons with it. The Ratio carriage kits are the cheapest LNWR carriage kits on the market, but how many people are willing to have a go at the carriage LNWR livery if they baulk at the idea of adding some Fox transfers to the Coal Tank to create a lined version and would rather hope/wait for Bachmann to do it?

 

Jol

Oh I don't know about that entirely Jol,

I am a bit in that space, a very particular company, time and location, but the Bachmann coal tank is a welcome addition to my date stamp.

In the knowledge that the LMS were notoriously slow in updating livery and running numbers up until the mid thirties, a heavily weathered RTR LNW coal tank fits the job, and allows that bit more LNWR into the frame.

I feel better about grubbying up a RTR to fit a June 1936 location, than a perfect LRM kit with a couple of hundred build hours behind it, I don't know how I will manage to do the weathering on any of my kits actually, you know what I mean - London Road is pretty pristine.

 

Regarding kits and RTR, well here is the thing - LNWR Oerlikon Electric sets, I'm weighing up, wait as there is a scannable example out there, or buy the LRM partial solution - you tell me.

 

If you are modelling a prototype with a date stamp, there are hundreds of things to consider, one less is a bonus.

 

An earlier comment holds optimism, in that this Bachmann example could have a positive outcome for LRM and the like, in that it could result in additional carriage and goods rolling stock sales, as we explore this era.

 

As always Jol, really lucky to have your knowledge shared on these pages.

Edited April 22, 2017 by 1BCamden

[Ian Hargrave]

Did the coal tanks work excursions from the Sirhowy valley to Barry Island?

In BR days that was a turn for the G2.Unless double headed that would have been beyond their capabilities,I would imagine....but who knows ?

[bertiedog]

Should arrive, today Royal Mail doing next day delivery, what ever next? letters the next day? It amuses my that in the days of the LNWR my grandparents could send home a postcard by noon, arranging the evening meal to be ready when they got in later in the day, and all without the internet to do it instantly.

 

Got to find a supplier of the 10T LNWR brakevan in kit form, seems LRM do one, but they are not an order on line company, but I will contact them and try an order out for the brake van. An ordinary small LMS generic type will do for now.

 

Are all the LNWR coaches Arc roof type rather than Bow profile? It makes using the Ratio 4 wheelers as LNWR a bit suspect,as the GWR roof is a bow type.

Stephen

[Jol Wilkinson]

Oh I don't know about that entirely Jol,

I am a bit in that space, a very particular company, time and location, but the Bachmann coal tank is a welcome addition to my date stamp.

In the knowledge that the LMS were notoriously slow in updating livery and running numbers up until the mid thirties, a heavily weathered RTR LNW coal tank fits the job, and allows that bit more LNWR into the frame.

I feel better about grubbying up a RTR to fit a June 1936 location, than a perfect LRM kit with a couple of hundred build hours behind it, I don't know how I will manage to do the weathering on any of my kits actually, you know what I mean - London Road is pretty pristine.

 

Regarding kits and RTR, well here is the thing - LNWR Oerlikon Electric sets, I'm weighing up, wait as there is a scannable example out there, or buy the LRM partial solution - you tell me.

 

If you are modelling a prototype with a date stamp, there are hundreds of things to consider, one less is a bonus.

 

An earlier comment holds optimism, in that this Bachmann example could have a positive outcome for LRM and the like, in that it could result in additional carriage and goods rolling stock sales, as we explore this era.

 

As always Jol, really lucky to have your knowledge shared on these pages.

 

Happy to have you have a different view, that is surely what forums are for, an exchange of opinions.

 

Ref Oelikons, the patterns for the underframe castings have been produced  by a very talented  modeller. The non powered bogie is a standard coach unit so that leaves just the power bogie AFAIK. An enquiry via the LRM website will get a more definitive answer. Will a RTR version ever be produced? The preserved version could be scanned but is it sufficiently "commercial" compared to  preserved steam locos, especially those in use and visible to a wider audience?

 

Whether the introduction of the Bachmann model will increase sales for LRM of coach kits is open to question. For the LNWR period I am firmly of the view that the complex livery will put people off. The introduction of the Bachmann L&Y Tank initially killed sales of the LRM kits stone dead, but they have revived a little. Sales of the L&Y six wheelers did increase slightly but the two tone livery is a bit easier to do, especially if you ignore the lining of the lower panels.