Bachmann announce 0-6-2T L&NWR Webb Coal Tank

[Brislines]

There is no scope for producing 3 and 4-cylinder Compound and simple 0-8-0's from the Bachmann Super D. They had lower & smaller diameter boilers and were totally different animals with different Tenders....

WEBB A.jpg

WEBB C.jpg

WEBB B.jpg

Models painted by me. Pete Waterman Collection. Photos by and courtesy of Tony Wright.

Ah! I didn't realise there was so much of a difference. For mass production it certainly wouldn't be worth Bachmanns while to develop them. A pity as they would make handsome looking models.

[LNWR lives on]

Maybe as a group we should consider lobbying Dapol as a company for LNWR coaches as they tend to do smaller batch runs than Bachman/Hornby

 

With regards to the Coal Tank though what would you want, a set of 6 wheel coaches, full brake, third brake and all third as the most built diagrams or some non-corridor stock?

 

I suspect its possible for a RTR manufacturer to do LNWR livery, Hornby did the Caledonian coaches though I am no expert on those and i suspect they are not much accuratte as a coach diagram

[Jol Wilkinson]

Producing the carriage body would not be difficult but the livery might be a problem. As far as I know no 4mm RTR manufacturer has produced a fully lined panelled coach in any livery. The panel beading is the same colour as the lower side, so the centre of the panels have to be painted in, followed by the lining around the edge of the panel/beading. Can tampo printing cope with this multi level and "in the corner" requirement? An experienced professional painter like Coachmann or Ian Rathbone can do it but I have to resort to cheating to get the effect.

 

PC did produce their fully lined kits but these were printed onto clear sides and lacked any real depth. However for many they represented a good way to have LNWR, LSWR or MR carriages. The later kits with the extruded aluminium roofs and lower body "supports" were very nice to build, although the etched bogies were a bit fragile.

[brossard]

The only coaches I can think of that were done correctly were the LMS period 1s from Rivarossi to go with their Scots.  Lovely things they were too but unfortunately they were neither chalk nor cheese being, I think, 3.7mm to the foot.

 

John

[LNWR lives on]

The below link is what i was thiking of but its not lined out

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRI-ANG-Hornby-OO-R427-CALEDONIAN-COMPOSITE-COACH-/201103336365?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2ed2b163ad

 

However after searching for Caledonian Coaches also came across:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Gauge-Farish-57ft-Suburban-Caledonian-Coach-RARE-0608-/181294821696?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2a36037140#ht_749wt_1161

 

Now its not fully lined out by any means but its a whole lot better than any 00 offering on the market. if something like this was available it would at least be a decent step forward, maybe for the non-kit builders it would be a good enough step for pre-grouping coaches with a "reasonable representation" of the carriage livery. Better than nothing to haul behind the coal tank

 

The PC brass bogies are a pain in the backside, as well as fragile, they dont react well to being caught on foam. Beautiful detail though. I have resorted to Whitemetal to preserve my sanity

[coachmann]

Painting and lining out full LNWR coach livery comes in two forms.  With coaches built up to around 1912 with low-waist panelling, I sprayed them off-white first and plum afterwards, Window bolections were painted red oxide. But with 'Toplight' coaches most of the sides are in fact plum. This is because the fixed windows are plum and are integral with the raised panelling. So I sprayed these coaches plum all over and masked them to spray on the off-white panels afterwards. The RTR guys shouldn't have too much difficulty printing this livery if they use plum coloured plastic.

[LNWR lives on]

We will have tyo wait and see if any of the RTR guys are brave enough to have a go and make some RTR coaches to go with the Coal Tank then.

[MartinWales]

Y :scratchhead:ou could always build some Ratio kits to run behind them David!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Y :scratchhead:ou could always build some Ratio kits to run behind them David!

Ratio, London Road Models, 51L/Wizard, Stephenson Carriages, there is no shortage. Then there are the PC pre printed side kits, still turning up on ebay. There is a fairly comprehensive list here:

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mmCarriages.php

 

Trouble is, they all require more effort than just opening a box. 

 

 

 

Edited for spilling, spalling, spelling.

Edited October 29, 2014 by LNWRmodeller

[1BCamden]

"Ratio, London Road Models, 51L/Wizard, Stephenson Carriages, there is no shortage.

Trouble is, they all require more effort than just opening a box"

 

Hi Jol,

You are absolutely right on a good number of points throughout this thread, I currently have four LNWR kits (Brassmasters and DJH) to build, and I was actually looking at the LRM Coal Tanks, but now Bachmann are filling that build (for me) I can get the four LRM Oerlikon Sets instead.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - RTR or not, we alway need either locos, wagons or carriages to compliment the item we build or purchase, I am glad we have a range of choices, volumes of data and opinion to support that choice. When I get the DC sets, and if a RTR company puts a set out a week later, it won't matter one drop, the decision was made, the enjoyment is the same, the kit is an experience that lasts a lot longer than just opening the box, but on the other hand if its the other way round, then it's carriages - it never stops, as the link you posted proves, thanks.

Edited October 30, 2014 by 1BCamden

[LNWR lives on]

Y :scratchhead:ou could always build some Ratio kits to run behind them David!

 

Martin,

 

Currently working on PC carriages, and will then be turning my attentions back to Keyser 6 wheel coaches and the ratio ones. The first attempt at painting has been aborted as frankly its junk, so its going in some stripper and starting again. After that its into brass sided coaches.

 

For people like Jol, his fellows in LNWR Modeling, me to a lesser extent etc the ability to take that coach out of the box and then build it is something we enjoy and can do. For the ones who cant do as they cant aquire the skills (not everyone is good at everything) its a case of pay someone like Larry to do so at a cost, or hope and pray that someone in the RTR market finally produces the coaches

 

In some respects if a RTR marketer could get it right, some pre-group prototypes ran LNWR, LMS and BR days, so they have 3 periods with I think 4 possible paint variants (LNWR, Lined LMS, Simple LMS, BR?) to push onto the market place

 

David

[Jol Wilkinson]

David,

 

at the risk of raising a few hackles, I have to say that the skills required to build most kits can be acquired by the majority of modellers if they want. Obviously there will always be some circumstances that prevent some people from doing that, but too often can't really means won't.

 

Time - or lack of - is often quoted as one major influence. Yet looking back, I realise that I learned (or improved) my model making skills when I was in full time employment in a rather time consuming role that usually meant an eleven or twelve hour day. However, I wanted to learn/develop the skills I needed and was also fortunate to have some friends who provided guidance and support, although I was never a member of a model railway club as such.

 

Some years ago I was asked by the committee of a local model railway club to hold some training evening "workshops" for them. I was happy to do so, my only stipulation was that they should choose the topics and I would fit in with that if I felt I could. The workshops covered airbrushing through kit building to working with plastics, etc. Over about seven weeks, they were regularly attended by the same eight or nine modellers, out of a membership of over forty. It became clear that there was an unwillingness to do anything different amongst most of the membership (almost a determination to maintain the status quo). The majority of those that attended the workshops (including several of the committee) shortly afterwards left to form their own small group with a much more "can do" philosophy. 

 

So for me, it is about having a desire to achieve something, which, given some guidance and support, can often be achieved. When we are born we can't talk, write, read, ride a bike, drive a car, etc. Yet we do learn those skills. Why would soldering, using an airbrush, etc. be so much different.

 

We can all hope for things, but too often that doesn't get us anywhere.

 

Jol

Edited October 30, 2014 by LNWRmodeller

[Penlan]

........ I learned (or improved) my model making skills when I was in full time employment in a rather time consuming role that usually meant an eleven or twelve hour day......

These days I tend to say

".....I'm going to find a proper job, because I had more time to myself when I was working full time...".

[LNWR lives on]

Jol,

 

I find it hard to disagree with you regards cant and wont. I have one friend who also has a love of railways but every kit he attempts to build just does not work for one reason or other, and hes only doing plastic wagon's at the moment, whereas my efforts are ok. IT however he is amazing, and I have to try hard not to crash the darn things. So I guess what I am trying to say is that there are exceptions in that some people cannot for whatever human make up reason can not learn a skill but can master another with ease.

 

What I would not have done to have been on one of those workshops. It comes down to the split in the hobby, some model everything, others like to plonk the stock from a box onto a layout, scenery done (That is a coarse description I know and apologise), but in that regard it boils down to individual happiness and level you want to work too.

 

Hope? Realistic 'hopeful' chance of a RTR doing LNWR coaches, 5-10%. Its an oft used word but I have learnt that hoping is far less effective than getting of ones backside and doing, so for myself it is getting the keyser coach stripped and a second and hopefully better atempt at painting it. Target is to have a set rake of 5 6 wheel coaches ready and done by the time Bachman release. mainly as I might hope but no RTR is going to do it for me

 

Cheers

 

David

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol,

 

I find it hard to disagree with you regards cant and wont. I have one friend who also has a love of railways but every kit he attempts to build just does not work for one reason or other, and hes only doing plastic wagon's at the moment, whereas my efforts are ok. IT however he is amazing, and I have to try hard not to crash the darn things. So I guess what I am trying to say is that there are exceptions in that some people cannot for whatever human make up reason can not learn a skill but can master another with ease.

 

What I would not have done to have been on one of those workshops. It comes down to the split in the hobby, some model everything, others like to plonk the stock from a box onto a layout, scenery done (That is a coarse description I know and apologise), but in that regard it boils down to individual happiness and level you want to work too.

 

Hope? Realistic 'hopeful' chance of a RTR doing LNWR coaches, 5-10%. Its an oft used word but I have learnt that hoping is far less effective than getting of ones backside and doing, so for myself it is getting the keyser coach stripped and a second and hopefully better atempt at painting it. Target is to have a set rake of 5 6 wheel coaches ready and done by the time Bachman release. mainly as I might hope but no RTR is going to do it for me

 

Cheers

 

David

David,

 

it's worth doing a suitable workshop if you can find one (Hobby Holidays did one with Ian Rathbone as far as I know or the Missenden courses may have something suitable) or sit down for as long as possible with someone demonstrating at one of the "finescale" shows.

 

In the meanwhile, some advice born of experience. I have find it easier to line out etched carriages than the Ratio moulded ones. I've never tried with a K's kit but with the technique I use the same difficulty may apply. The sharper edge of the beading/moulding on etched kits seems to "hold" the paint from the bowpen better and with a sharper edge. It is therefore easier to apply and give a better result.

 

The technique Ian Rathbone uses (prototypically more accurate but not so easy to master for me) and shown in the Right Track 3 DVD probably overcomes this to some extent but still relies on the edge of the beading to control the lining pen.

 

So an etched kit may be easier to line out. More expensive of course than a K's or Ratio off ebay but possibly better value in the long term.

 

Jol

[LNWR lives on]

Jol,

 

As I have your article and am intending to follow that when i get that far with a coach I will heed that advice.

 

I do have a couple of etched brass passenger coach kits which are much further down the pile at the moment but on the basis of the above advice and also the fact that brass can easily be stripped of its paint if I make a mess of it they may just climb the list

 

Its take your pick on Ebay really, some poorly done coaches seem to command a decent price, so who knows what may flood the market when the Coal Tank comes along

 

David

[Penlan]

I don't know what's shown on the Right Track 3 DVD, but the method I use for lining the LNWR mouldings is to do the whole width (old) Humbrol 24 (Trainer Yellow), then a single plum line along the centre.  

Phillip Millard showed me this method some 40+ years ago, and it seems to meet most standards.  

 

I have lost a load of files on my PC, this is the only one I have showing the lining, though I have posted many in the past on RMWeb.  It's not the best, but the principles there.

 

Edit, These two vehicles are etched zinc sides and ends - one Red Rose (P.Millard) and the other Trevor Charlton - no not the footballer. 

The bars on the windows are matt 'leather' red (Humbrol) paint on 5 thou glass 'Cover Slip' glazing.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Penlan

[Stevelewis]

These days I tend to say

".....I'm going to find a proper job, because I had more time to myself when I was working full time...".

Thats  very  true  I  only  work  part  time these days, dont  really  have  to  but  it  gets me  out  and  keeps  me  involved, but on  the  non working   full or   half  days,  I dont seem  to  have  any modelling  time,  cant  put  my  finger  on  the  reason, but TV may  be  a  culprit  too many  old  films!!  A N D   Brief Encounter  is  on today on Film 4 so I will be  watching  the  trains on  that !!

[coachmann]

The sharpness of raised beading should not really come into it, as the ruling pen should be following the ruler. The most prototypical beading I ever came across was on Charlton's zinc etchings. For some reason the beading had a prototypically rounded edge and one could put the lining where it should be on the corner. This was also a feature of David Jenkinson's scratchbuilt coaches. Where real difficulties abound is on some 1970's/80's etchings, typically Mallard Models, where the hand drawn artwork followed scale drawings and the beading was to scale. No allowance had been made for the etching process making it even narrower. 

 

My own coaches are etched with beading I can line out easily and is deliberately slightly overscale. However, I am using a lot of my own coaches on the layout in plain unlined BR liveries now and so I have gone in for scale beading from now on. 

 

As regards soldering, I used to tell fellow modellers who said they couldn't possibly learn to solder that Ferranti's was full of young women who did nothing else all day! Soldering in itself is easy. It is perhaps learning how to hold parts together while performing soldering that is harder.

 

Ooops, so as not to go completely off-thread, I will just add that I too am looking forward to buying a Coal Tank!

Edited October 31, 2014 by coachmann

[Penlan]

As regards soldering, I used to tell fellow modellers who said they couldn't possibly learn to solder that Ferranti's was full of young women who did nothing else all day! Soldering in itself is easy. 

 

Ooops, so as not to go completely off-thread, I will just add that I too am looking forward to buying a Coal Tank!

One of my son's has a Masters Degree in Electrical Technology and Communications - He's the worst solderer I've known,  I tried to show him how, but still he's still the master of the dry joint.

Annoyingly, I think I may well have to buy a Coal Tank too, though whether the other 8 on the layout will let it perform, I don't know.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Penlan

[LNWR lives on]

This is what I love about RMWeb, illustrative picture and some stimulating and interesting thoughts.

 

I thik when I get to the stage of lining I will try it out each way and see which really works for me.

 

8 Coal tanks? All from the same kit stable or numerous outlets?

[Penlan]

8 Coal tanks? All from the same kit stable or numerous outlets?

6 K's, all from long, long ago - 1 with slopping smoke box front, 2 scratch built by third parties names lost in the mist of time.

All have scratch, Gibson or LRM chassis' now.  Mostly Gibson wheels, though there's still a few Sharman's in service, purchased when the Bristol Show was in White Ladies Road.

I do have a few 0-6-0 Coal engines too, mostly M&L, but also a nice scratch built one by the late John Horton.

- This is the same 'Horton', as in 'Horton Road' Main Goods Entrance to Bob Essery's 'Dewsbury'.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Penlan

[Jol Wilkinson]

I don't know what's shown on the Right Track 3 DVD, but the method I use for lining the LNWR mouldings is to do the whole width (old) Humbrol 24 (Trainer Yellow), then a single plum line along the centre.  

Phillip Millard showed me this method some 40+ years ago, and it seems to meet most standards.  

 

I have lost a load of files on my PC, this is the only one I have showing the lining, though I have posted many in the past on RMWeb.  It's not the best, but the principles there.

 

Edit, These two vehicles are etched zinc sides and ends - one Red Rose (P.Millard) and the other Trevor Charlton - no not the footballer. 

The bars on the windows are matt 'leather' red (Humbrol) paint on 5 thou glass 'Cover Slip' glazing.

Hi Sandy,

 

I use the same approach. Shown to me by John Redrup, I wrote it up for MRJ No. 52.

 

A rather vicious close up is attached of a 57ft carriage (in need of dusting) from a Stephenson Carriages kit  on one of London Road's set up days in the local village hall.

 

 

Ian Rathbone describes the technique of running the tip of the bowpen in the "corner" between the white panel and the raised "plum" beading. Brian Badger used a similar technique. He sprayed the carriage plum, flooded the white into the panels with a brush and finally lined into the "corner". Very neat work but his lining tended to be rather "heavy" in 4mm in my view.  

 

The sharpness of raised beading should not really come into it, as the ruling pen should be following the ruler. The most prototypical beading I ever came across was on Charlton's zinc etchings. For some reason the beading had a prototypically rounded edge and one could put the lining where it should be on the corner. This was also a feature of David Jenkinson's scratchbuilt coaches. Where real difficulties abound is on some 1970's/80's etchings, typically Mallard Models, where the hand drawn artwork followed scale drawings and the beading was to scale. No allowance had been made for the etching process making it even narrower. 

 

My own coaches are etched with beading I can line out easily and is deliberately slightly overscale. However, I am using a lot of my own coaches on the layout in plain unlined BR liveries now and so I have gone in for scale beading from now on. 

 

As regards soldering, I used to tell fellow modellers who said they couldn't possibly learn to solder that Ferranti's was full of young women who did nothing else all day! Soldering in itself is easy. It is perhaps learning how to hold parts together while performing soldering that is harder.

 

Ooops, so as not to go completely off-thread, I will just add that I too am looking forward to buying a Coal Tank!

Larry,

 

what I meant to convey is that the paint (usually Humbrol, applied with a Kern bowpen, guided by a ruler) tends to stay on the beading with an etched side, but is more inclined - or so I find - to slide off the edge of the moulding on a moulded Ratio kit. I put it down to the edge of the Ratio beading having a slightly rounded edge from the moulding process.

 

When designing some etched carriage kits for LRM I was asked by another professional painer to make the beading overscale, for the reasons you descibe.

 

Jol

 

p.s.I shall not by buying a Bachmann Coal Tank.  I would need to convert it to P4 and already have two anyway.

[coachmann]

Larry,

 

what I meant to convey is that the paint (usually Humbrol, applied with a Kern bowpen, guided by a ruler) tends to stay on the beading with an etched side, but is more inclined - or so I find - to slide off the edge of the moulding on a moulded Ratio kit. I put it down to the edge of the Ratio beading having a slightly rounded edge from the moulding process.

 

When designing some etched carriage kits for LRM I was asked by another professional painer to make the beading overscale, for the reasons you descibe.

 

Jol

Ah, I understand now. I forget sometimes that i do all the lining with cellulose, which does not run anywhere as it dries so quickly.

Edited October 31, 2014 by coachmann

[MikeHunter]

Really pleased with this announcement, Bachmann is doing a great job of choosing some of the smaller loco types. Love the half cab and the Aspinal, so a Coal Tank is a great addition. Can we have the Stanier mogul too please!