TINGS This weekend ready to roll

[grahame]

I don't find the venue poor - in fact it's quite good for model railway exhibitions. It's spacious - even more so now with the extended section - with a solid concrete floor that doesn't bounce when people walk past. And the facilities are acceptable - reasonable toilets and a cafeteria where the food is actually rather good. They even put out more chairs than you often find at many shows. Sure, it's not exactly on easy convenient public transport links but there is a large free car park.

 

However I agree about the penny pinching. I've exhibited there in the past and was asked to attend again but turned it down when told I could only have three operators despite the layout having three controller positions and the need for lunchtime and breaks cover - I'd only asked for four operators to be included.

 

I guess that there might also be an issue where some people may think that it's somehow connected to the N Gauge Society.

[MrSimon]

I helped out exhibiting there few years ago, and while it was a good show and they put us up for the night, they refused to honour the full petrol expenses which left a very nasty taste in our mouths. I can completely understand exhibitions wanting to keep expenses down, but it's not unreasonable to expect tea and coffee, or just a glass of water in that hot shed. It didn't put me off visiting the show again though, and I'm sure I'll be back again in the future (just not with Gresby)

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Grahame,

 

That's exactly the sort of false economy I mean.  A chance to see SLD would almost certainly get me through the door on its own and I am sure others feel the same.  If the RM Web show continues on the same weekend, and they start getting better layouts, maybe TINGS becomes less of a certainty...

 

And as Mr Simon says, it's the fact that the quibbling leads to awkwardness and a slightly bad taste that is a shame.

 

I personally don't think I have never heard anyone suggest that TINGS is connected with the NGS - is that a widely held misconception?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[queensquare]

Mr Simon, did they really refuse to honour a previously agreed fuel expenses claim. If so, that's unbelievable, I'm afraid I'd have really kicked up a fuss.

 

Ben, the notion that TINGS is somehow connected to the N gauge society is not uncommon.

 

Jerry 

[Revolution Ben]

 

 

Ben, the notion that TINGS is somehow connected to the N gauge society is not uncommon.

 

Jerry 

 

Hi Jerry,

 

Ah - I had not realised.  Thanks for the feedback..

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[t-b-g]

You've hit the nail on the head there Ben and whispered the unspeakable..

 

We know that all shows should be cost conscious as its not theirs but the paying guests money their playing with.. however..

 

Despite the assistance of one or two modeller/stewards whom i know not - if they are paid or not?,... TINGS is a business proper staged solely for profit, it does nothing for modelling save existing, being at the very bottom of my league table below the model mags and heritage railway shows and even charity gigs..

 

They are known for crimping costs to underneath the bare minimum and using the good will of the exhibitors to fund there business.

 

I'm not purporting that they are of the quality you suggest in the above comments Ben... but they won't be seeing a layout from me again until they get their act together re what they provide exhibitors..i.e. proper insurance, nearby overnight accommodation including breakfast, justifiable travel costs for the layout and team, tea and coffee en-tap and a basic lunch... not the world.. just sufficient to not make me think i'm not having the piss taken out of me or my team for profit..

 

I've said it enough times in private and now am saying it here...pending an agreeable date that does not upset the existing exhibition calendar could be found... if the NGS steps up and hosts/finances a proper show biannually if necessary... myself and Scale148 as a group will support it wholeheartedly with layouts, equipment, contacts and proven experienced assistance..and all not for profit!

 

Cheers Mark

 

Couldn't agree more. Perhaps it is time that people who give up their weekends (and much other preparation/travelling time) for nothing to boost the profits of a commercial organisation make a change to the system!

 

I would go further than just expecting full expenses to be covered. I would quote expenses quite differently. We should charge these organisations a commercial rate for our time. Nothing extortionate, perhaps £10 per hour per operator. We shouldn't do it for club or society shows, just the corporate/commercial ones.

 

Would the people arranging the shows give up their weekends to put profits in the pockets of somebody else for no reward other than a lot of hard work? I think not!

 

Once the costs of putting on a show accurately reflect the time and effort put in by exhibitors, I wouldn't think that any of the commercial shows would last longer than one year and we could go back to exhibitions that are there to give some financial support to clubs and societies again, rather than businesses.

 

Tony

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Mickey,

 

Yes, but it's N Gauge Show, not N Gauge Society, and as far as I know the organisers themselves never refer to it as TINGS - that's just shorthand we use on here. 

 

But fair point - I can see that how confusion may arise.

 

So....

 

1)  Is the confusion actually an issue?

 

(2) If it is an issue, what, realistically, can be done?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

(NGS VP)

[Mike J]

Having exhibited at TINGS this weekend we are awaiting our expenses to be paid. We have actually claimed less than our estimated expenses due to our vehicles being more fuel efficient than Google maps estimated. (This is the system we use to calculate our fuel consumption.)

It is the only show that we have attended where expenses were not paid directly to the layout team on the Sunday of the exhibition, and the only show where some sort of refreshment was not provided at lunch time. This was stated in our show documents and we accepted this in agreeing to participate. (We shopped at a local Tesco for sandwiches before arrival at the venue on each day.)

The accommodation provided at a local guest house in Warwick was excellent.

What would be totally unacceptable is any organisation refusing to cover reasonable expenses in full after the event, providing they are not to much in excess of original estimates. (I'm not suggesting that Merridienne will be guilty of this at all, by the way.) 

One of the reasons we exhibit our layout is that we find it hugely enjoyable, and although I'd prefer that any 'profit' from exhibitions stayed within the hobby, I'm sure that the trade did very well at TINGS. 

The camaraderie shown by exhibitors, visiting public, societies and traders at this show was particularly good and the standard of the layouts on display was excellent.

The whole experience was very positive for our team. (Expenses payment pending)

Mike

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Tony,

 

Your suggestion is interesting, and well worth debating.

 

The advantages to the layout operators are fairly clear - for example on our club layout at your proposed rate for a two-day weekend show we could generate around £400.  We could spend that on upgrades, improvements and of course the next, even better layout.  Also, if such a model were to become popular then it is likely to encourage more groups to build layouts, widening the pool and improving quality for the exhibition goer.

 

But  I am worried about unintended consequences...

 

*  If we make the stipend "per operator" then organisers will be even keener to minimise numbers attending.

*  If we make it a flat rate per layout then bigger layouts will be disadvantaged.

*  Will "professionalising" it in this way raise expectations and make organisers less tolerant of operational or electrical gremlins?  Will they put pressure on operators to keep things moving?

*  Will it lead to significant increases in admission fees?  There's already been some carping about the £11 RMWeb entrance fee..

*  Will it destroy small club shows - if you get used to making £400 per weekend with your layout, will you be as keen to exhibit it for nothing?

 

There are probably lots of other points and counter-points that I haven't listed...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Douglas G]

If I recall correctly, the N Gauge Society used to organise big exhibitions at around this time, but not every year. I remember going to the one at Wakefield that I think was an anniversary show for the NGS.

 

Then the first TINGS was organised the next year at about the same time and it seemed to take over as the big N Gauge show in the calendar in September. I think this is why people associate TINGS with the Society, plus there is a big NGS presence.  Meridienne who run TINGS do several other exhibitions including model engineering and model boats - I wonder if the same issues of payment of expenses occur with those. But they probably don't have the same sort of logistical problems involved in transporting layouts and the need for lots of operators.

[t-b-g]

Hi Tony,

 

Your suggestion is interesting, and well worth debating.

 

The advantages to the layout operators are fairly clear - for example on our club layout at your proposed rate for a two-day weekend show we could generate around £400.  We could spend that on upgrades, improvements and of course the next, even better layout.  Also, if such a model were to become popular then it is likely to encourage more groups to build layouts, widening the pool and improving quality for the exhibition goer.

 

But  I am worried about unintended consequences...

 

*  If we make the stipend "per operator" then organisers will be even keener to minimise numbers attending.

*  If we make it a flat rate per layout then bigger layouts will be disadvantaged.

*  Will "professionalising" it in this way raise expectations and make organisers less tolerant of operational or electrical gremlins?  Will they put pressure on operators to keep things moving?

*  Will it lead to significant increases in admission fees?  There's already been some carping about the £11 RMWeb entrance fee..

*  Will it destroy small club shows - if you get used to making £400 per weekend with your layout, will you be as keen to exhibit it for nothing?

 

There are probably lots of other points and counter-points that I haven't listed...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

What it will do is to create a clear split between the club/society show and the commercial money making venture. At the moment, the lines are a bit blurred. I am not sure how many people who are not closely involved with the hobby would realise whether a show they attend is a club one or a commercial one.

 

At the moment, both sorts of shows get that most scarce resource, time, given to them for nothing.

 

I work from home and am self employed and I usually do a good amount of work at a weekend. If I take one of my layouts to a show, I lose the equivalent of a couple of days worth of earnings. For a club or society I am more than happy to do that but why should I do it to boost the profits of somebody else's business?

 

My intended consequences are to make people realise that such shows are taking a chunk of a finite pot of funding within the hobby and they are only able to do it because they basically get people to boost the income for their business by getting them to work for nothing. If you look at how many operators/exhibitors there are at most shows, they are never going to be viable commercially if they are run on a basis of people charging for their time.

 

So if any shows fall by the wayside, it would be the commercial ones. They would have to put up their entrance fees or charge such massive trade stand rentals that nobody would go.

 

If such shows did cease, it would leave a bigger pot of funding to go round the club/society shows.

 

Just one final point, there is at least one other show (and a big one at that) that I have done where lunches were not provided. That is the one at Glasgow. If I ever get invited there I will be declining the invitation for that reason!

 

Tony

[Tricky-CRS]

To give a traders view, I think the venue and facilities are good, meridian staff are helpful and leave you alone. I pay a lot for my plots, but they do bring the punters in. Compared to Warley and Ally Pally for example which cost as much, have less punters, horrible venues and sometimes belidgerant staff. Several of us commented on how much more pleasant experience this show is to attend over the other 2. Warley is a commercial show certainly from the traders point of view, where you are stung at every turn. I will not be at either of these shows as a trader again as they are expensive, poor sales and truly unpleasant experiences.

 

Bring on TINGS 2015 my 5th year trading there, I'll have to make even more effort.

[grahame]

Potentially the blurring of any difference between TINGS and the NGS may be because there are a few NGS members who appear to be connected with the Meridian organisation and help out (even though they may have no direct involvement or official connection with the organisation). Plus I've always been of the opinion that TINGS grew out of a NGS backed exhibition in Wakefield - whether that is true or not is not really the point as that is an impression I have and I get the feeling that others may think there is some sort of connection. Certainly it needs to be made clear that there is no connection, especially a financial one. 

 

So to counter the possible incorrect assumption that TINGS and the NGS are somehow connected, perhaps it's time for the NGS to organise and put on their own national N/2mm exhibition - after all they used to put on some great exhibitions usually every five years in conjunction with an anniversary. With 2017 - now less than 18 months away - and being the NGS 50th anniversary, it would be a good opportunity to celebrate in style.

 

The good news is that it looks like that next years NGS AGM (in North Wales?) and the associated mini expo is likely to be something larger and more exciting than has been the case for the last few years.

[Revolution Mike]

The NGS always used to run shows every 5 years, though it didn't for its 45th anniversary (personally I thought that was a mistake), however 2017 will see the NGS's 50th anniversary and preliminary discussions are underway about running a show then.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

(NGS Product Development Officer)

[queensquare]

So to counter the possible incorrect assumption that TINGS and the NGS are somehow connected, perhaps it's time for the NGS to organise and put on their own national N/2mm exhibition - after all they used to put on some great exhibitions usually every five years in conjunction with an anniversary. With 2017 - now less than 18 months away - and being the NGS 50th anniversary, it would be a good opportunity to celebrate in style.

 

 

Fully agree, with profits going back to the relevant Societies/Associations to fund products and services for the 2mm/N modeller.

 

Jerry 

[grahame]

Who is actually taking on the role of organising a NGS 50th exhibition? - it hasn't been discussed at the recent committee meetings. The only mention I'm aware of has been outside in general casual conversations. It would be nice to know that someone is 'officially' getting a grip on it and looking at the options on behalf of the NGS.  

[Revolution Mike]

Who is actually taking on the role of organising a NGS 50th exhibition? - it hasn't been discussed at the recent committee meetings. The only mention I'm aware of has been outside in general casual conversations. It would be nice to know that someone is 'officially' getting a grip on it and looking at the options on behalf of the NGS.  

 

It was discussed at the meeting just before you joined the Committee. I don't think it is clear who will be in charge of organising it, though I'm keen to be involved.

 

M

[2mm Andy]

Mr Simon, did they really refuse to honour a previously agreed fuel expenses claim. If so, that's unbelievable, I'm afraid I'd have really kicked up a fuss.

 

Jerry 

 

I don't think Mr Simon said that they were previously agreed fuel expenses. I agree that it would be very poor form if that was the case, but let's not jump to conclusions.

 

What it will do is to create a clear split between the club/society show and the commercial money making venture. At the moment, the lines are a bit blurred. I am not sure how many people who are not closely involved with the hobby would realise whether a show they attend is a club one or a commercial one.

 

Tony

 

The lines are pretty blurred at present. I would regard the Warners shows as commercial exhibitions, yet at least two are run in conjunction with the MRC (in the case of Ally Pally) and Doncaster club (in the case of the Festival of BRM). I understand that both clubs get a financial contribution from Warners in return for their assistance, and that some of the risk associated with running a model railway exhibition is carried by Warners rather than the club, so both sides benefit.

 

Does anyone know why Model Rail didn't attend TINGS?

 

Andy

[TomE]

It's spacious - even more so now with the extended section

 

Perhaps the extra space has made a difference this year then, but in 2013 there were certain aisles I couldn't even get down due to the shear number of people. Spacious was the one thing is was not! It was possibly the worst crowding I have experienced at an exhibition, and that includes Warley, Ally Pally, Doncaster etc. I also have no doubt that as Roundhouse says, there are worse venues, but having attended many shows as both simple visitor and more recently operator, I am yet to experience anything nearly as bad. 

 

On the other hand, the fact there were so many people there can only be seen as a good thing for N Gauge, but it did not make for an enjoyable experience. This is simply the view of a visitor to the show, not an exhibitor, but it has certainly made me think twice about attending again in the future whilst it is still held at the same venue. 

 

 

If the RM Web show continues on the same weekend, and they start getting better layouts, maybe TINGS becomes less of a certainty...

 

 

Hmm, I going to assume that was a poorly worded comment there Ben! There were some quality layouts at RMweb Live, including N Gauge, with Kinlet Wharf and Vale of Oxbury flying the flag. Vale of Oxbury even picked up a well deserved best layout award. Anyway that may be irrelevant as I think the RMweb show may make a move to earlier in the year for the next event. 

 

Tom.

[Steven B]

This years TINGS was the first one I've missed. I've been as a paying visitor and as an exhibitor & demonstrator.

 

Crowding will always be a problem; The organisers can never judge which layouts are going to be the most popular. Put two of these opposite each other and you've got congestion. Put two less popular layouts near each other and you have clear passageways.

 

The venue's a good one; Its clean and bright with plenty of toilets. The food's good and not too expensive. The biggest problems are the un-even floor, limited space in the exhibitors car-park and a gloomy section under the cafe.

 

As an exhibitor I was provided with a good bed in a clean B&B with good food so nothing to complain about. Yes it's a bit disappointing not to get a few lunch and teas/coffees but I see that as less of a problem. If the budget for the show is that tight then perhaps providing with 50% off discount vouchers would go some way to making exhibitors happier.

 

My biggest grumbles are the layouts (not enough top notch quality ones), and the traders - very little second hand stuff with a distinct lack of a choice of tool suppliers, book sellers and tins of paint.

 

If the NGS does do a 50th Anniversay show I hope it's a big one with as many high quality layouts as possible and input from each of the Area Groups.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[talisman56]

 

Does anyone know why Model Rail didn't attend TINGS?

 

Andy

 

I would think it was because all their staff were at a certain arena not too far away from Leamington, doing their own, part-competing show...

[talisman56]

 

My biggest grumbles are the layouts (not enough top notch quality ones), and the traders - very little second hand stuff with a distinct lack of a choice of tool suppliers, book sellers and tins of paint.

 

 

Steven B.

 

I think that there would be a few layout exhibitors at this years' TINGS who would be very put out by the first part of your statement. I did attend and thought that most of the layouts met my interpretation of 'top notch quality ones', including those that had been featured in the trade press recently...

[2mm Andy]

I would think it was because all their staff were at a certain arena not too far away from Leamington, doing their own, part-competing show...

 

If you mean the RMweb do at Coventry, I doubt it - that was organised by Warners, who publish the British Railway Modelling magazine, not Model Rail.

 

Andy

[grahame]

'Spacious' and 'crowded' are two different things. Spacious tends to be about building 'volume' while crowding tends to be a function of floor 'area' and people numbers. However, even what might appear to be spacious with a few people can become overcrowded simply by adding more people. And just because an aisle or two is crowded doesn't mean the show was crowded overall and for all of the time. Most shows seem to have aisles of different widths of which some can be crowded while other areas are not. Warley is worst for that and TBH the worst crowding I find is always a certain places at the NEC show. 

 

Finally, of course, the amount of visitors on each day can vary and make a place feel overcrowded on one day but almost empty the next - but it's hardy a fault of the venue. Just poor management of the stand layout and a mismatch in marketing to attract people.

[Steven B]

I think that there would be a few layout exhibitors at this years' TINGS who would be very put out by the first part of your statement. I did attend and thought that most of the layouts met my interpretation of 'top notch quality ones', including those that had been featured in the trade press recently...

 

As I mentioned, I didn't go to this years show so can't comment on what was there.

 

Over the last couple of years I'd seen many of the layouts exhibited at TINGS at other shows and so I perhaps don't pay as much attention to them as I did the first time I saw them; Others whilst (mostly) being well modelled haven't had that certain something that kept me going back for more. This isn't just a critisism of TINGS or N Gauge. I can easily say the same about the shows at Wigan, York, Nottingham, Wakefield and Warley.

 

 

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.