Bachmann Mk1 Bogies - Curiosity

[Ian Abel]

I've just received my second rake, the first was a 4-coach set of Crimson/Cream, 2 x BSK and 2 x CK, of these amazingly lovely coaches.

Both sets obtained "new" from a storage/collection, and are very obviously never run, have all the "parts", etc.

 

This second set is a BR/WR 7-coach rake, including 1 x BG, 2 x SK, 1 x CK, 1 x RU, 1 x FK and 1 x BCK.

 

The curiosity is this, ALL the coaches except the BR/WR FK have the "standard" MK1 bogie, the FK has a B4 bogie? I thought at first perhaps the bogie had been switched as it is somewhat looser than all the others, but on checking some standard Bachmann images (Hattons still show one) this coach was delivered by Bachmann with the alternate bogie.

 

Anyone know why? It seems to be loose, even with the screws "tight", and has far more wobble than with MK1's - I happened to have a new spare pack of Bachmann MK1s and installed them and the coach is much "tighter" with them installed . Whilst I'm not a collector and intend to run these, I generally prefer to keep items I buy "original" if there is some obvious/sensible reason to do so, so do I leave the B4s on? Comments? Explanations?

 

Thanks in advance for any and all offerings

 

Good grief these coaches are NICE!!!!

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Ian

 

B4 bogies appeared quite early - mid 60s IIRC

 

The first thing I do with any newly acquired bacchy coach is loosen the bogie screw - for me failute to do so will result in derailments as there will be insufficient float

 

And yes super models

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[plarailfan]

There's a review here, which says B4 bogies were used to replace the original bogies as they wore out.

Some MK1's had commonwealth bogies, which all adds variety to our models and in the late 1970's / early 1980's blue / grey era, all three types of bogie could commonly be found, in one rake of MK1 coaches. http://www.semgonline.com/model/bach-mk1_01.html

Edited September 24, 2014 by plarailfan

[brushman47544]

I generally prefer to keep items I buy "original" if there is some obvious/sensible reason to do so, so do I leave the B4s on? Comments? Explanations?

 

In my experience - I have Bachmann's Mk1s in crimson & cream, maroon, green and blue/grey - Bachmann has been pretty good at matching bogie type with the coach and period it is modeled to reflect. This is particularly so with the blue/grey coaches; I have them with BR1s, Commonwealths and B4s. Again a generalisation but I have found the Commonwealths and B4s better runners over complicated pointwork but that may just be my coaches.

 

If you want to be confident the bogies on a coach have not been changed, you really need to look at Hattons/Rails or others' photos of the originals to be sure they haven't been changed.

[SRman]

I'll have to check Parkin's book (if someone else doesn't beat me to it) but I seem to recall that there was a chocolate and cream mark 1 (Western Region, of course!) fitted with prototype B4 bogies back around 1963 or thereabouts.

[Dunsignalling]

I'll have to check Parkin's book (if someone else doesn't beat me to it) but I seem to recall that there was a chocolate and cream mark 1 (Western Region, of course!) fitted with prototype B4 bogies back around 1963 or thereabouts.

As my copy was only a couple of feet away, I can save you the trouble.

 

On page 62 there is a photo (dated August 1962) of BCK W21188 so fitted and the text on the same page mentions that W34885 (a BSK) also got them before receiving maroon paint.

 

I'm pretty sure I've also seen one of a FK, but it must have been somewhere other than in Parkin. 

 

John

Edited September 24, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[mark54]

In the early 1960s there was a small pre-production run of B4 bogies that were fitted to the Mk1 coaches in the Bristolian & Red Dragon sets. These sets were in Chocolate and Cream livery.

 

There is a photo of FK W13074 in Choc/Cream and with B4 bogies on the tile page of British Railway Coaching Stock in Colour for the Modeller and Historian. Taken at Leamington Spa on 3rd July 1964 on a Paddington-Birkenhead service - so by then probably dispersed from the Bristolian or Red Dragon by new Commonwealth bogie maroon Mk1 stock.

[96701]

I seem to recall that the Commonwealth bogies pre-dated the B4s and were fitted under coaches fitted with gas bottles for 2 reasons: -

1. Commonwealths were designed for 100mph running
2. they could carry the greater weight imposed by gas bottles, so found them fitted to catering vehicles.

[Titan]

Again a generalisation but I have found the Commonwealths and B4s better runners over complicated pointwork.

Just like the real thing! Bachmanns attention to detail knows no bounds!

[Titan]

 

I seem to recall that the Commonwealth bogies pre-dated the B4s and were fitted under coaches fitted with gas bottles for 2 reasons: -

1. Commonwealths were designed for 100mph running
2. they could carry the greater weight imposed by gas bottles, so found them fitted to catering vehicles.

 

I think that all loco hauled Mk1s built after about 1958 or so (might have been later) had commonwealths from new, irrespective of type. I think the gas bottle weight is a bit of a red herring - they weigh something like 30kg each when full, i.e. you would need three of them to exceeded the weight of one passenger!  More likely the weight of the rest of the coach was the issue. Commonwealth bogies only started to be retrofitted to earlier Mk1s in the late '80s, after being recovered from scrapped vehicles, and then mainly to BGs and GUVs.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Titan

[GarrettTheThief]

I'm modelling 45/47-hauled rakes and in practically every photo I've seen, the Mk1s had Commonwealth bogies.  For the sake of consistency, it's just easier if I convert the bogies on all my other Mk1s with a Replica Railways kit..  The only exceptions are:

 

Regional Railways Mk1 coaches.  These are Replica Railways models which already (correctly) have B4 bogies

Departmental generator vans converted from BGs which I'll fit with B4s

Lab 6 Prometheus which I'll fit with B10 bogies

Any composite coach, I'll just keep the B1 bogies

 

I'll keep an eye on this thread anyhow.

[mark54]

Commonwealth bogies were trialled on FO E3076-E3080 from 1956. Full production was from 1960 when all passenger carrying Mk1 stock would have had them, until the end of  Mk1 production in 1964.

 

The trial pair of B4 bogies was introduced in 1956. There was a short pre-production batch in 1961 as mentioned above. Full production of B4 (and the heavy duty B5) commenced in 1964 for new Mk2 stock and as replacements for BR1 bogies on earlier Mk1 stock, in particular catering cars, sleeping cars, first class coaches and late 1950s production batches that had more modern interiors.

[Sam Moss]

Were I used to volunteer has 2 BR built RMB's. 1802 which was the first RMB preserved back in the early 80's is on its original BR1's and doesn't half bounce even walking through it. Ries very well though despite the wheel flat. 1862 which has Commonwealths is a lot more solid and actually rides higher.

[Andy Reichert]

Just like the real thing! Bachmanns attention to detail knows no bounds!

 

I would like to ask what "better running" means in your case?

 

If your complicated pointwork is producing ANY derailments, or violent vehicle bumps or jerks, I would suggest you should be looking for some serious root track cause and fixing it.

 

I would personally doubt that a slight change in Bachmann bogie runs could cause other than a subtle difference in the "clickety-clack" in normal circumstances. It's much more likely something else is happening.

[Dunsignalling]

Usual cause of Bachmann Mk.1 derailments on good track is BOTH bogies being tight which makes the coach too rigid to behave well when negotiating changes of gradient and typical (but unprototypical) changes of curvature at speed without benefit of superelevation. They especially dislike track joints on curves which, however well laid at first, always seem to get a bit rough eventually.   

 

I have found the best way to overcome it is to have one bogie with a bit of rock'n'roll and one without (but loose enough to turn freely). A bit of trial and error will soon reveal the ideal mix. The effect this produces is a limited and rather crude form of compensation, but it seems to work!

 

However, slack screws can become slacker over time so I add Peco fibre washers (the small size) to allow them to be fully tightened with the bogies as tight or loose as required. The rule is one more under the loose bogie than the tight one; I don't recall having to use more than two under any screw so a packet goes a long way. 

 

John

Edited October 2, 2014 by Dunsignalling

[Xerces Fobe2]

Usual cause of Bachmann Mk.1 derailments on good track is BOTH bogies being tight which makes the coach too rigid to behave well when negotiating changes of gradient and typical (but unprototypical) changes of curvature at speed without benefit of superelevation. They especially dislike track joints on curves which, however well laid at first, always seem to get a bit rough eventually.   

 

I have found the best way to overcome it is to have one bogie with a bit of rock'n'roll and one without (but loose enough to turn freely). A bit of trial and error will soon reveal the ideal mix. The effect this produces is a limited and rather crude form of compensation, but it seems to work!

 

However, slack screws can become slacker over time so I add Peco fibre washers (the small size) to allow them to be fully tightened with the bogies as tight or loose as required. The rule is one more under the loose bogie than the tight one; I don't recall having to use more than two under any screw so a packet goes a long way. 

 

John

 

A small amount of silicon grease helps too!

[Dunsignalling]

Surely a vehicle such as a corridor first would have been repainted maroon before the B4 bogie was introduced?  If BR was concerned about the ride of the original bogie I think the vehicle would have been repainted as well.  Seems logical to me in the absence of photographic evidence.

 

JF

I believe the Westen Region were the first to put whole trains of B4-fitted Mk.1s into service.  IIRC they initially received two sets which were to be kept intact and evaluated on crack expresses ahead of a decision to adopt the new bogies as standard.  The aim was to confirm that the B4 bogie could match the durability and high-speed performance of the Commonwealth type without the weight penalty and it would have been desirable to put high mileages on the trial rakes as quickly as possible.

 

They were certainly painted Chocolate and Cream to begin with but, by the time more B4 stock became available, the WR had adopted maroon livery. At that time, mixed rakes were very much 'verboten' on named trains except in dire emergency and the trial sets would have been replaced with new maroon ones. The C&C coaches were dispersed into general traffic but retained the livery until their next overhaul, hence the various published photographs of single B4-fitted coaches in mixed rakes.

 

John

[The Bigbee Line]

Sometimes ignorance is bliss. However I have recently purchased a crimson and cream mk1 restaurant car. It's got the BR bogies. Should it have commies?

[Silver Sidelines]

I have two Bachmann models of W13074. Reference 39-154 is fitted with B1 bogies, Reference 39-154B is fitted with B4 bogies as shown in the supposed 1961 unattributed image below taken from a book by Hendry and Hendry.

 

 

It might also be relevant to mention that Bachmann BR(E)RU E1930 / 39-101B comes correctly fitted with Gresley Bogies.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Silver Sidelines

[Grovenor]

 

I have recently purchased a crimson and cream mk1 restaurant car. It's got the BR bogies. Should it have commies?

IIRC the change to Commonwealth bogies came after the change to maroon livery, I doubt any crimson and cream coaches had Commonwealths.

Keith

[John Tomlinson]

Following on from the comments about derailments, another cause is the bogie fouling the little lug that holds the coupling spring at places of change in gradient.

 

The only answer I've found to this is to remove the lug and install different couplings, nonetheless worth investigating if your problems persist.

 

John.

[Poor Old Bruce]

The bogie changes were brought about because the ride of B1 bogies started to deteriorate after about 20,000 miles in service after overhaul. 'As new' B1 bigies rode very well but were designed to use the 1 in 20 coned wheel profile. As the wheel treads wore and the effective conicity between the wheel and rail changed, they started hunting i.e. the lateral movement of the wheel on the rail overcompensated and set up a random cycle of lateral movement at about (IIRC) 3-5 Hertz which the bogie suspension could not damp out. I don't think the lateral forces generated were excessive but it did give an uncomfortable ride. Gresley and Commonwealth bogies were readily available alternatives until B4s and B5s came along.

 

Don't forget that B4s were not without their teething problems. The primary (axlebox to frame) suspension damping was inadequate and allowed the bogie frame to pitch (somewhat disconcerting when you are standing in the cess as they pass) to the extent that there were several instances of brake blocks becoming detatched which was not good at 100 MPH.

[Grovenor]

 

and allowed the bogie frame to pitch (somewhat disconcerting when you are standing in the cess as they pass)

Been there, seen that, quite a high frequency of pitching as I recall.

Keith

[Andy Reichert]

I always wondered why Gresley bogies ended up under my local Liverpool St to Chingford 305/1 EMU's from brand new in 1960.  They must have had some very advantageous characteristics, to be used under what was in effect a BR standard body.

 

Andy

[Ian Abel]

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far (and those to come!!).

 

All the coaches I have run extremely well, my sole reason for the OP was related to the oddity of a single coach showing up with a different (i.e. not MK1) bogie. I set about replacing them on the one coach as I had a spare set around, and they actually seemed to have far less wobble than the B4, though in fairness, as the coach is a "never run" it seems more a fit issue with this specific coah and mated bogies as they aren't so nice a fit as the MK1s are, there's simply some slop as the hole in the B4 bogie is rather too much larger than the mount it fits over IMHO.

I'll probably just leave the MK1s on as returning them to the original B4s is more work than doing nothing Now all I need do is sell on my LIMA stock!