Not so modern image

[Pacific231G]

A comment on another topic about "Modern Image" and the blue period suddenly gave me pause for thought.

 

I've just done the sums and realised, slightly to my surprise, that we're now further in time from the end of BR steam (46 years ago) than the end of steam was in 1968 from the 1923 grouping. However, looking at layouts that were being featured back then, only a few such as Denny's Buckingham Branch depicted the pre-grouping companies whereas today I'd reckon that at least half and probably more layouts, including everything I've ever attempted, are still based on the post-war steam era. just as they were in 1968. The difference is that nowadays a lot of those layouts are being built by modellers for whom the steam railway is no more a personal memory than commercial sailing ships would have been to most modellers then.

 

Is it just the cataclysm of a world war that made 1923 seem so much further away in 1968 than the steam era seems now or is it more about the loss not only of steam but also of branch lines, pickup goods trains, parcels trains, Pullmans,and the railways seeming far more important in our lives? (even though far more of us travel by train now than did then)

[edcayton]

There is the "chicken and egg" thing-do we buy post-1948 because it is available, or do they make it because that's what we want?  But then there is the huge amount of books, photo's and cine films/video's available. You would struggle to build a pre-grouping model, although many people do just that perhaps because of the difficulty.

 

Ed

[MarkSG]

I've seen it argued elsewhere that "historical" railway modelling really only took off with the end of steam and the Beeching cuts. Prior to that, model railways - and toy trains, certainly - were mostly aimed at recreating the railways as they really were, and the more newfangled and up to date the locos and trains the more people wanted to model them. It was the passing of steam, and the realisation that the railways were at risk of becoming near-extinct, that fuelled a newly-nostalgic viewpoint among railway enthusiasts which was in turn reflected in the modelling scene.

[RhBBob]

Yes, you are right, MarkSG, although the real nostalgia for steam amongst manufacturers started long after it disappeared from main lines in Britain.

 

It seemed to be a long time before 'boxes on wheels' became generally loved !  In a model shop in 1980, having informed the assistant that I modelled Swiss Railways but said my young Son had not shown an interest, the assistant offered the explanation that perhaps my Son might prefer something he could see every day; needless to say, I offered no comment on the rows and rows of steam outline locos on the shelf behind her.....!!

 

And the point that always intrigues me is that 'Modern Image' is difficult to achieve, given that the subsidiary items on your layout - cars, people, road signs, to name but a few - will generally identify your period much better than the rolling stock which may or may not be carrying the correct livery for the time period.

[Reorte]

Exposure to a period certainly helps build up an interest in it and there's far more post-war material to be exposed to than pre-war, so that part may well be self-fulfilling. Moving on the less surly side of me says that as time goes by more potential material to chose from exists so, everything else being equal, a smaller percentage of modellers are going to chose to model the current scene simply because it's a smaller proportion of the overall railway scene.

 

And the point that always intrigues me is that 'Modern Image' is difficult to achieve, given that the subsidiary items on your layout - cars, people, road signs, to name but a few - will generally identify your period much better than the rolling stock which may or may not be carrying the correct livery for the time period.

Perhaps that puts people off a bit, it's easier to notice things that are wrong when you see the full size version every day. For some that'll be part of the challenge.

[Talltim]

Is it just the cataclysm of a world war that made 1923 seem so much further away in 1968 than the steam era seems now or is it more about the loss not only of steam but also of branch lines, pickup goods trains, parcels trains, Pullmans,and the railways seeming far more important in our lives? (even though far more of us travel by train now than did then)

Not sure how old you are, but making an assumption;  I would guess that the end of steam seems closer to you now than 1923 did to you in 1968 because you can remember the end of steam, but never experienced the grouping.

1968 was 8 years before I was born, and in some ways it feels to me just as much a nebulous historical date as 1923. In theory privatisation should be my big railway history defining moment, but I'd just stopped catching the train to school, got a car, gone to college and missed it!

[Pacific231G]

Not sure how old you are, but making an assumption;  I would guess that the end of steam seems closer to you now than 1923 did to you in 1968 because you can remember the end of steam, but never experienced the grouping.

One difference though is that people who never knew it seem far more aware of the steam era now than we were about pre-grouping then. I don't rememember anyone reminiscing about the pre-grouping railways in the mid 1960s though there was nostalgia for the pre-nationalisation railways especially the GWR.

 

I think Mark is probably right about it being the impression that railways were in terminal decline in Britain coinciding with the eclipse of steam during the mid 1960s that created a tidal wave of nostalgia. There simply didn't seem much to look forward to in railway terms and I think that mood only started to lift when the first HSTs started to appear. In most of northern Europe it was rather different as the end of steam, generally a few years later than in Britain, was just that. In other respects railways appeared to continue much the same as before for another decade or two and the decline in local lines and services and some of the more interesting activities such as through coaches and pick-up goods trains was a far more gradual process.

[MarkSG]

On a more general note, some commentators suggest that nostalgia in popular culture really took off in the late 60s and early 70s. In part, this was a response to the major changes that society was going through at the time, in particular a huge wave of housebuilding which changed the face of many towns and villages as well as the construction of concrete tower blocks and shopping centres in cities. The late 60s and early 70s saw the first big tranche of listed building designations in England (the next big bunch was in the early 80s, under Thatcherism - another time when society was changing rapidly). 

 

The media also played a big part. The fashion for recent-historical programmes and movies, set within the lifetime of older members of the population, fuelled a nostalgia boom. For example, the TV series Happy Days - which I enjoyed as a child - first aired in 1974 and depicted life in the mid 50s. The equivalent now would be a TV show set in the mid 90s. War movies - always a cinema staple - made in the 60s and early 70s would have tapped into the same mood.

 

So it isn't surprising that hobbies, including railway modelling, were also affected. It was just another part of what was going on.

[Reorte]

The media also played a big part. The fashion for recent-historical programmes and movies, set within the lifetime of older members of the population, fuelled a nostalgia boom. For example, the TV series Happy Days - which I enjoyed as a child - first aired in 1974 and depicted life in the mid 50s. The equivalent now would be a TV show set in the mid 90s. War movies - always a cinema staple - made in the 60s and early 70s would have tapped into the same mood.

Yet we don't really get much in the way of nostalgia for the 90s. Some for the 80s, some for the 70s, a lot for the 60s. It seems like the world (or the UK at any rate) hasn't changed as much since then (although there's a lot of stuff that's appeared that I'd love to see the back of) but not to the extent of what was happening in the 60s. Or is that just my impression because I remember it and it doesn't seem too long ago, but I wasn't even born in the 60s, so that feels like a completely different world?

[Ron Ron Ron]

I was born in the mid-1950's and approaching my 60th birthday I'm afflicted with nostalgia as much as the next old fart man; but I definitely don't feel the 1960's or even the 70's were "not that long ago".

Crikey, the 1980's seem like eons ago to me. Even the early 1990's seem so distant.

 

As for the OP mentioning "Modern Image", I honestly haven't a clue what he's talking about with the use of that phrase.

The "Blue period" however; that means something to me and I can remember it very clearly; but it still feels like a long long time ago, back in the distant past.

 

 

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[The Stationmaster]

It's not just about 'steam' but also about the disappearance of 'the old railway'  which although a lot of it happened post 1968 it had been far more noticeable in the public arena before then.  Now not only is all of this well documented but it is covered in masses of books and videos and is to some extent recreated, albeit mainly in pastiche, by a mass of 'heritage' railways spread all over Britain.  Thus it is very easy to kindle awareness of this period and it is equally easy to research it.

 

Now compare that with the Pre-Group situation - any surviving locos and stock in the 1950s looked very different from their former glory and there were no videos/dvds to see the past in moving pictures, what film existed wasn't available to all and was in any case 'grey' because it was in monochrome, very few people realised there were books about the period and even fewer understood that old postcards were a tremendous source of information (the latter probably isn't much different now!).

 

So ever you never knew, or if your memories of it are vague, but you want to recapture the steam age and the way railways were back then the easiest way to do it is to go for the BR period and that interest and market has been fostered by some of the r-t-r manufacturers with - nowadays - all of them firmly on that bandwagon.

 

And yes, distance in time probably does make a difference but seemingly (because I wasn't there) in many respects some aspects of the 1930s weren't too much different from the 1950s and a lot of places didn't look all that much different.  That began to change noticeably in the 1960s and since then there has been a torrent of continuous and often rapid change - nostalgia ain't what it used to be but we can still grab at our version of it.

[Ron Ron Ron]

If I may say so, an excellent post, Mike.

I think you've summed up this topic extremely well there.

 

Ron

 

 

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[Pacific231G]

As for the OP mentioning "Modern Image", I honestly haven't a clue what he's talking about with the use of that phrase.

The "Blue period" however; that means something to me and I can remember it very clearly; but it still feels like a long long time ago, back in the distant past.

Hi Ron

I was quoting it from another post so put it in inverted commas. It's often associated with Cyril Freezer who wanted modellers to embrace the exciting new railway that was supposed to be coming, but I think "British Railways' Modern Image" may have been a term coined by them. It expressed a sleek fast modern railway making a clean break (which in reality was anything but) from the past of steam locos and slow trains on branch lines.

It's not a term I generally use because, though I think "Modern Image" refers to a particular period that started with XP64 coaches and shiny new blue electric locos, that period doesn't have a well defined end. Also "Modern Image" is often used instead of simply "Modern" to mean the now or the very recent past so it's become rather muddied.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's not just about 'steam' but also about the disappearance of 'the old railway'  which although a lot of it happened post 1968 it had been far more noticeable in the public arena before then...

A build on this. What was so fantastic about the final decade of steam was the juxtaposition of all kinds of earlier traction and stock, equipment, buildings, track layouts, dating in some cases to near the start of the railway age; with the newly introduced traction and stock that was going to be operated for anything up to fifty years following this event. No such broad a timespan of the railway as a totality is ever going to be offered again, because apart from the surviving routes opn the ground and major station buildings, the early railway was near wholly swept away in the thirty to forty years following the traction transition.

[Reorte]

It's not a term I generally use because, though I think "Modern Image" refers to a particular period that started with XP64 coaches and shiny new blue electric locos, that period doesn't have a well defined end. Also "Modern Image" is often used instead of simply "Modern" to mean the now or the very recent past so it's become rather muddied.

I didn't realise that it has a more specific meaning, I've always taken it to mean the current scene ("current" obviously advancing as time does).

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hi Ron

I was quoting it from another post so put it in inverted commas. ......

.......It's not a term I generally use because, though I think "Modern Image" refers to a particular period that started with XP64 coaches and shiny new blue electric locos, that period doesn't have a well defined end.

Also "Modern Image" is often used instead of simply "Modern" to mean the now or the very recent past so it's become rather muddied.

 

It wasn't having a dig or anything David, but rather hinting at the point you make about muddled usage of the 'orrible term.

You can probably tell that M..... I.... is a particular bugbear of mine, along with the often misused "prototype", which in a model railway context seems to have a different meaning to general everyday usage.

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

I didn't realise that it has a more specific meaning, I've always taken it to mean the current scene ("current" obviously advancing as time does).

 

The difficulty being, when does the current scene cease to be "current" as time moves on?

Transient  terminology such as current, present day, modern (scene, period), contemporary, or a specified time period (whether loosely or tightly defined) seems to fit the bill perfectly; but the ".....image" bit is largely regarded as specific to the 1960's time period mentioned earlier.

 

 

Time to go back to the topic I think.....????   

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[Pacific231G]

It wasn't having a dig or anything David, but rather hinting at the point you make about muddled usage of the 'orrible term.

You can probably tell that M..... I.... is a particular bugbear of mine, along with the often misused "prototype", which in a model railway context seems to have a different meaning to general everyday usage.

Hi Ron

I didn't think you were and I agree with you about the misuse of Modern Image to just mean modern. I've never come across anyone with a "Great Western Image" or a "Pre-Grouping Image" layout though after so many years of it being used that way we're probably stuck with the confusion. On the other hand "blue period" seems entirely appropriate both literally and in how things felt to railway lovers, at least in the earlier part of the period when they seemed to be in irreversible decline.

 

Prototype as used in modelling isn't, according to my OED, a misuse of the word. It simply has two different meanings:

1. an original thing or person of which or whom copies, imitations, improved forms, representations etc. are made

2. a trial model or preliminary version of a vehicle, machine, etc.

 

The first definition seems to express what we do in making representations of things.

[brianusa]

In the modellers mind is a railway real or imagined that he wishes to create. What era, railway, steam diesel, freight or passenger is what he wants to build and operate. It may be modern image, steam era or pre grouping and if he likes operation he will choose the former options, leaving the latter for running as there will be precious little to do. The average shunting layout in whatever railway is chosen has many options for layout, buildings and other infrastructure and its no wonder it is the favourite subject.

 

Brian

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

 

Well someone had to say it.....

[Ian Smeeton]

I think Mike (stationmaster) was there first, but certainly is time to get the old Brasso out & buff it up a bit.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[newbryford]

Hi Ron

I was quoting it from another post so put it in inverted commas. It's often associated with Cyril Freezer who wanted modellers to embrace the exciting new railway that was supposed to be coming, but I think "British Railways' Modern Image" may have been a term coined by them. It expressed a sleek fast modern railway making a clean break (which in reality was anything but) from the past of steam locos and slow trains on branch lines.

It's not a term I generally use because, though I think "Modern Image" refers to a particular period that started with XP64 coaches and shiny new blue electric locos, that period doesn't have a well defined end. Also "Modern Image" is often used instead of simply "Modern" to mean the now or the very recent past so it's become rather muddied.

 

Capitalisation can be misleading. Modern Image is the mid 1960's. modern image is recent.

 

The use of the phrase is oft-discussed.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78719-modern-image-is-the-phrase-outdated/?hl=%22modern+image%22

 

It's one of the terms that I'd like to see in Room 101!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Poggy1165]

I think the rate of change generally has accelerated since 1968, and nowhere more so than on the railways.

 

When I was a lad (circa 1963) I spent a lot of time on Guide Bridge station. Apart from the introduction of electric trains and their catenary, there was very little that would not have been recognisable to Sir Sam Fay. The buildings were the same, the track layout was the same and to a large extent even the operations were the same. There were still engines taking trains of coal to Ashton Moss to be exchanged with the 'L&Y'.

 

Now the scene is utterly different. Everything has been swept away and a new set-up installed, much simpler and less interesting. 

 

What I am saying is that there was far less change between 1923 and 1968 than between 1968 and now. I scarcely recognise the railways I once knew. Even the signal boxes are vanishing fast, and rank weeds grow everywhere, even on mainlines.

 

Why do people choose to model a particular era? I think there are a thousand different reasons. Even in the 1950s there were modellers who focused on pre-group - Peter Denny, Ross Pochin, Jack Nelson and even P D Hancock spring to mind. But then as now, they were in the minority. Maybe the 60s are popular because you can pretty much have it all ways - steam, diesel and electric, and lots of interesting types of rolling stock, much of which, in 4mm anyway, can be had RTR. 

[MikeOxon]

I feel that the great 'divide' was when we went from a world where people did the work, to our present world of automation and mechanisation.  This completely changed the ways in which railways operate.

 

The odd thing is that it is more feasible to model an automated railway realistically, than one where most of the operations needed people to be visibly 'doing things'.  Yet a great many modellers build layouts where all the human activity appropriate to their period is missing

 

Mike

[Pacific231G]

It's (possibly) interesting that, according to Loco-Revue, the most popular period for French modellers is from about the end of steam (rather more gradual than in Britain but almost complete by 1970)to the mid 1980s. In that period operation still followed traditional lines. Local wagonload goods was still very common, there were a lot of (mostly goods only) branch lines and vast numbers of often quite small private sidings. Much signalling was still mechanical and passenger trains operated, at least on the main lines, more or less as they had since the great transport "co-ordination" (aka replacement of most local services by buses) of the late 1930s.